AIHA or IMHA

But UP is *****UP***** whooooooooo hoo!!!  And given all the med changes UP is a darned good thing!!!

JackieG

Cyclops, you just keep it up, girl!!

As always prayers and healing vibes to all the dogs and the people who love them.

Ditto!!  Big energetic ditto! 

labrickner

He started digging in the trash and eating stuff (from pica, a symptom of anemia) but I thought he was just regressing to puppy behavior.

Nice to meet you.  One subtle sign of IMHA is dogs eating soil.  My dog went outside where I have potted plants, stuck her nose into the plant and got a big mouthful of black potting soil. 

I got an anti-funglal anti-biotic shampoo called KetoChlor which is Rx and another one called EtiDerm which is available without Rx.  Both have helped my dog's skin.. and I alternate that with Selsun Blue because the KetoChlor especially makes the skin kind of dandruffy as its removing all the bad stuff.  

Probiotics are a good idea.  Sounds like you are doing a lot of good things.. and your post brings to mind all the dangers of immune supression.. helps the IMHA but opens up a whole other can of worms.

You've done an amazing job with Bucky.  I hope you can find some of the answers you are looking for.  I am really hoping its not Cushings.. has the vet done an ATCH Stim Test?  I think it was under 200 at my vet.. might give you peace of mind.

You know.. getting my dog's blood test results are like pulling teeth.  I spent extra time telling everyone yesterday to pass the results on to me by e-mail so I can forward the information to OSU. 

At 4pm.. no email.  I called them.  The Serum Iron level test wasn't finsish yet from Antech.. but the vet's office said they'd email me the CBC results.  No email.  Tomorrow I am going to stay on them all day until I get the results and then I'm going to find a clinic that has the time to keep me informed.  If I was actually worried about her PCV I'd be furious.. but right now I'm just numb to the way I'm being treated.  I'm finished wit it.  I wish I was a computer hacker, I'd break into Antech's website and get the results myself.. all you need is the clinics ID# and zip code.  Getting a call back is impossible.. so I thought I'd make it easier by making it to where all they had to do was cut/paste and send by email.  How long would that take? 10 seconds?

Her next test in 30 days will be done somewhere else.. anywhere else.  Anyplace that can manage to give me my test results will be hired.

I'm going to call Callie sometime this weekend.  I"m getting ready to go out of town.  Thanks for the kind support -- this is definitely a wise forum willing to put a lot of time into fighting IMHA.

A bit of clarification:  Bucky's Cushings Syndrome is from the Prednisone, not from hormonal problems.  It actually has gotten better (less pot belly, skin is healing more) as we taper down.  So his most pressing problem now is the arm infection and the resistance to antibiotics. He's down to a hole that's smaller than a pencil eraser.  It started swelling and draining again so two days ago he was put on another antibiotic and the combination seems to be working (for now).  If all is well, it will be totally healed within two weeks, although I may have to have them debride it again because of the scar tissue.

Like I mentioned previously, his hair loss is troubling still.  Could be from the pred, or could be something else (which led me to dermodex).   He doesn't itch or scratch, but his skin has little dark spots on it where the fur is gone.  On first glance, the hair loss isn't too bad, but his coat has definitely thinned and since he doesn't have an undercoat (due to the poodle part of this doodle) it's noticeable, and there are definitely patches on his sides that are almost bald, although pretty well camoflauged by his otherwise long coat.  Any thoughts? And he clearly has an imbalance of "good bugs", as evidenced by the tongue fungus, which is almost completely cleared up, thankfully, and never really seemed to bother him although I would see it on the bottom of his tongue when he licked his nose.

I just ordered a shampoo with Benzoyl Peroxide (recommended for mange, plus skin infections in general).  I'm hoping that at the very least, it can't hurt him. I also may try EtiDerm, as recommended.  I also just happened upon a groomer (I won a gift certificate to her place at a charity auction) and she's an amazing local resource for supplements and remedies and such -- she talks my non-traditional language.  Can't wait until she gets a look at Bucky to give her input.

 Another thought.  Has anyone here ever heard of using Glyconutrients?  When Bucky crashed the first time (six months ago at the age of 18 months) my friend, who swears by Ambrotose, gave me some and told me to give it to him round the clock.  At the time, the dog wasn't even able to hold his head up, and his PCVs were 17 or so.  I mixed the powder with water and syringed it down his throat every few hours.  As he grew stronger I continued to sprinkle it on his food, but eventually stopped using it (it's expensive).  I'll never know if it was really part of the cure, but his recovery was a little miracle.

Another tidbit to share:  When I brought Bucky home from the pet ER (against their recommendation, but I just couldn't afford it) he was on Doxycylin and Prednisone.  I took him to the local vet, who explained that the dosage for both was based on a recommended range. He recommended increasing the dose of both meds to upper limits of the range -- and he *doubled* the dosage of both meds.  I still find it very interesting, in that the ER would be relatively conservative with the dosage even though by all accounts the dog was barely alive.   It appears that there's a bit of art in determining the proper dosage, rather than just strict math.  At about 60 lbs, he was at 20mg twice daily.  Fortunately, Prednisone has done the job both times the IMHA reared its head, and we haven't had to go the route of the other (more expensive) meds. 

Best of luck to Cyclops and Cooper and all the dogs who are in the throws of battle right now.

L.A.

I'm happy to send you my Demodex article BUT BUT BUT you don't want to try super hard to boost the immune system **because** you don't want to send the immune system into over-drive. 

Add some tea tree oil to the final rinse water after the benzoyl peroxide baths.  BP is great (it actually helps wash mites down the drain) and the tea tree helps better than anything else I know to help ward off mites and help the skin stay staph free (i'd also be using tea tree on that bad spot as well).

But like I said -- this is a very deep subject on a difficult situation so talking on the phone will be better.

Re Cushings - have you actually had Cushings diagnosed??  Because of the huge steroid use, it can put the body in what my holistic vet calls "a Cushing-OID state" -- i.e., looking LIKE Cushings but not being Cushings. 

Cushings is essentially fatal -- you don't **want** it to be Cushings (not in a young dog in particular).  BUT the steroids cause these side effects of the pot belly, the skin problems, etc.  THEY GO AWAY eventually after the dog is off steroids and you get them back to health.

 It took over a YEAR for Billy's pot belly to go away but it did.  So there is a subtle but **very critical** difference in that they can look like they have Cushings Symptoms and yet not HAVE the disease.

 Billy had FOUR -- yep, I COUNTED THEM, -- *****F*O*U*R**** tests for Cushings during the time he was fighting IMHA and the year after it.  And it wasn't ever Cushings -- the tests were always negative. 

 Maybe Bucky just can't handle the Pred anymore.. even though his current dose seems very small.  If it wasn't for that I'd say he was just reacting to the high doses of 'roids. 

Status Report on Clops

GOOD THINGS:

PCV is up to 42.7 that is up from 39.1

Globulin is at 4.0 which is down from 4.5 last month.  High normal is 3.6

ALT is 152 which is down from 214 last month and 245 2 months ago.  High normal is 118.

ALP is 192 which is down from 317 last month and 2400+ before that.  High normal is 131.

I think the ALT and ALP values are improving because of the powdered Milk Thistle (Thanks Callie!) 

BAD THINGS

Serum Iron is 65 which is WORSE than it was last month at 79.  Normal range is 98-220.  Why is it getting worse when I am giving an iron supplement?  I am going to talk to the vet about that.  For sure will continue on Iron for 1 more month and re-check.

Her Platelet Count is high at 458.  High Normal is 400.  Last month is was 270 so for some reason it has gone out of normal.  I am going to talk to the vet about what that can possibly mean.

The report that was emailed to me is so much better than the paper copy I used to get.  This came straight from Antech.  I want to always get it by email from now on.

Overall I am happy.  A little mystified about how Iron can go down when I am giving Iron? If it stayed the same I'd think that maybe dogs just can't absorb pills and try increasing the iron rich foods.  But to actually go down?  Maybe she is using more iron up for some reason?  

Anyway.. am reducing her Cyclosporine from 150 2x/day to 125 2x/day.  That should help those liver functions next month and help her skin to improve. 

Will report back on what vet says about Serum Iron and Platelets.

labrickner

Like I mentioned previously, his hair loss is troubling still.  Could be from the pred, or could be something else (which led me to dermodex).   He doesn't itch or scratch, but his skin has little dark spots on it where the fur is gone.  On first glance, the hair loss isn't too bad, but his coat has definitely thinned and since he doesn't have an undercoat (due to the poodle part of this doodle) it's noticeable, and there are definitely patches on his sides that are almost bald, although pretty well camoflauged by his otherwise long coat.  Any thoughts

I just wanted to tell you that when Willow was on Prednisone she lost all the fur on her sides right down to the skin.  And, also on her muzzle (nose)  all the way up to almost her eyes.  And, her legs thinned out significantly.  And, she's pure chow chow so that's a LOT of fur plus undercoat, but it was gone!

I had taken her into the vet maybe three times thinking something else was going on.  But, after stopping the Predisone it is all back.  And, her vet has her on a supplement now called Wellactin. 

GratefulDawg

Serum Iron is 65 which is WORSE than it was last month at 79.  Normal range is 98-220.  Why is it getting worse when I am giving an iron supplement?  I am going to talk to the vet about that.  For sure will continue on Iron for 1 more month and re-check.

Her Platelet Count is high at 458.  High Normal is 400.  Last month is was 270 so for some reason it has gone out of normal.  I am going to talk to the vet about what that can possibly mean.

The report that was emailed to me is so much better than the paper copy I used to get.  This came straight from Antech.  I want to always get it by email from now on.

Overall I am happy.  A little mystified about how Iron can go down when I am giving Iron? If it stayed the same I'd think that maybe dogs just can't absorb pills and try increasing the iron rich foods.  But to actually go down?  Maybe she is using more iron up for some reason?  

Anyway.. am reducing her Cyclosporine from 150 2x/day to 125 2x/day.  That should help those liver functions next month and help her skin to improve. 

Will report back on what vet says about Serum Iron and Platelets.

I'm not surprised here - it mirrors what happened with Billy after long-term cyclosporine.  HIs packed cell went TOO HIGH -- into the 50's (which wasn't even normal for him prior to the whole thing).  AND his blood got really really THICK.  (too many platlets?? Means it clots WAY too easy and that's scarey scarey stuff for stroke, etc.).

1.  You might ask the vet school about the special blended aspirin that Val's using on Cooper -- it's an ultra low dose but it's to help thin the blood.  One time when they drew Billy's blood (and it was just prior to him getting OFF the cyclosporine -- they drew blood from a foreleg to send it in). 

I knew they were laboring over it and I couldn't see what was going on -- I just heard a lot of "hmmmm" and "uh uhhhhhhhhh" and stuff.  And finally the tech said "We're going to have to call Dr. D in here because everything is coagulating BEFORE it gets in the syringe".  Literally -- it was clotting in the needle and the whole syringe full of blood was CLOTTED.

I almost had a stroke myself just seeing that.  I will ***NEVER EVER*** forget how freaking scared I was.

My only guess then, and now, is that on some level the body is still making blood like MAD so it's draining the iron reserves.  Remember I told you how hard I shoved iron at Billy?  I mean I was shoving him FULL of leafy greens, kale, beef heart out the ying yang, chick peas, prunes, dates, beets, every thing I could think of that had iron in it AND we wound up supplementing too.

I even backed off on the Iron after that time when the blood was so thick -- but for months before we got him off the cyclosporine I could see IN THE TUBE it wasn't normal. 

You seriously may want to begin to consider as you wean off the cyclosporine to get him to Dr. Broadfoot.

2.  The globulins are a result of the skin being cruddy and the widespread internal inflammation that occurs with the excessive cyclosporine use.  Not excessive in that it's what's saving her life, BUT it's way more cyclosporine than is good and the body uses inflammation to try to get RID of the toxins in the body.  (remembering that cyclosporine IS a steroidal anti-inflammatory so this is SOOOO weird but it's how the body reacts when it's trying to deal with all these drugs/chemicals in the body).

Billy was inflamed like that for MONTHS and MONTHS ... and he still sporadically fights inflammation but on a much lower scale than ever before.  But even after we got him OFF the cyclosporine he went from infection to infection to infection to infection ... UTI to skin to ears to pancreas to liver and back around again.  At one point in time they thought he had a HEART infection.  Scarey stuff -- but it's a result of that cyclosporine.

You haven't been able to shove the iron FOODS at Cloppy like I did Billy -- and because her body historically in this has attacked reticulocytes rather than mature blood cells, it makes me think that her body is still attacking reticulocytes altho a good deal of them ARE making it to maturity.  But if her body is still having to make blood like crazy that's why she's so low in iron. 

AND heat will hinder that as well -- here in Florida women with iron problems always have a harder time in summer because the heat saps the iron from the body as well.

Happy to read that things are looking great for Cyclops!!

Yeah for Cyclops! I'm sure you are very happy to decrease the Cyclosporine. :)