Questions about low kidney function.....

First off---I love the names of your dogs.

Here is a great website to check into:

http://www.dogaware.com/kidney.html

Best of luck.

tzu_mom

First off---I love the names of your dogs.

Here is a great website to check into:

http://www.dogaware.com/kidney.html

Best of luck.

Thank you! I really didn't see how his food could have caused it anyway? I did a TON of research on foods before selecting EVO, and I have to be careful what I feed in this house since Drake is allergic to everything! One errant piece of kibble can make my life hell :(

He has been on high protein his whole life and I would think his SEVERELY copmromised immune system as a pup would be the most likely culprit???

I love your choice of dogs.  I am a  golden owner, but  pyrs, irish Setters and newfs are at the o of my list of  dogs  I love.

I really can't saymuch about the problems.  My old golden that i lost a little over a year ag  age 12 yrs. 3 mons. (heart attack) had a kidneyproblem about 1 1/2 yeas before he did.  he had an infection and 'trash" in his kidnesy.  My vet put him on antibioics for 2 wees and that nasty Science Deit k/d for 3 months.  But at the end of 3 months he was fine and he went back on his regular food and never had another kidney problem.  Also, I started him on cranberry capsuls at that time.  As well as my other two goldens.

Then just after Buck died  we found that my one golden had a mal formed kidney.  It as the right length, but twice as thick. as it should be.  However, it functioned jut fine.  I lost her 6 weeks ago Sunday to cancer, found 2 days before her death. Before surgery her blood panel was perfect, her kidnesy both great.  During the srugery to remove the tumor he checkd out everything and there was just that one tumor that had encasedher appendix and grew complaetly around where her small and large intestines joined--worse place it could have been as fa as bowel tumor goes. 

Maybe you should ask your vet about giving cranberry capsuls.  On a side note, my hubby is cross country truck criver and those rigs beat kidneys to pieces.  his  back bothered him so much, he stated aking the cranberry--at my insistance--and he doens't have the back ache near as much now.  he thinks it really helps.

I can't give much advice here, but I have a few points.

1. Look at this site for dealing with Parvo next time:  https://www.msu.edu/~silvar/parvo.htm
2. I have never heard of Parvo causing severe sudden aggression.  However, Lepto can have that as its only outward symptom and does attack the kidneys.  It is possible that Tucker was even sicker than you thought!!
3. See this site for Lepto treatment suggestions:  http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1556&articleid=454
4. Humans can be infected with Lepto, so be careful.
5. This site shows what nutrients support kidney function: http://www.b-naturals.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=80  Look at the individual products for dosages.  You can, of course, buy the products elsewhere. 
6. High protein foods do not cause kidney damage.  That has been debunked and your vets need to update their education.   However, past a certain point damaged kidneys have trouble processing protein, so lower amounts of easily digested protein are needed.

I would get Judge on antibiotics quickly.  Whether it is Lepto or not, I think he has a severe kidney infection.

If Judge does have Lepto, it is likely that Drake does, too, and you just haven't seen it yet.

See these two sites on diets for kidney problems:

• http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/kidney-diet/
• http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/proteins-kidneys-senior-dogs/

janet_rose

I can't give much advice here, but I have a few points.

1. Look at this site for dealing with Parvo next time:  https://www.msu.edu/~silvar/parvo.htm
2. I have never heard of Parvo causing severe sudden aggression.  However, Lepto can have that as its only outward symptom and does attack the kidneys.  It is possible that Tucker was even sicker than you thought!!
3. See this site for Lepto treatment suggestions:  http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1556&articleid=454
4. Humans can be infected with Lepto, so be careful.
5. This site shows what nutrients support kidney function: http://www.b-naturals.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=80  Look at the individual products for dosages.  You can, of course, buy the products elsewhere. 
6. High protein foods do not cause kidney damage.  That has been debunked and your vets need to update their education.   However, past a certain point damaged kidneys have trouble processing protein, so lower amounts of easily digested protein are needed.

I would get Judge on antibiotics quickly.  Whether it is Lepto or not, I think he has a severe kidney infection.

If Judge does have Lepto, it is likely that Drake does, too, and you just haven't seen it yet.

 

I appreciate your concern, but neither of my dogs have Lepto and Tucker did not either. Yes, I am sure. I have worked in a Veterinary environment nearly all of my life and am very aware of the signs and symptoms for Lepto. Both of my dogs have been vaccinated (yes I am aware that is not 100% as Judge had been vaccinated for Parvo as well and still got it), and neither one of my dogs shows ANY misplaced aggression, no jaundice, and none of the other symptoms for Lepto either. He also does not have a kidney infection. I have had extensive blood work done on my baby and there were no problems whatsoever with blood cells, and absolutely NO indication of an infection anywhere in his system. As far as my Vets, they may be a bit behind in their suggestion that his food could be a problem, but the Vet that he goes to is the absolute best in my area, is an AAHA hospital, and regularly, as in every 6 months, sends their Vets and techs for updated education on new technology and advances in Veterinary medicine. I sincerely hope that this is not coming across harshly, I don't mean it to be, but I am fully aware of Lepto and infections and he is not in those categories. I do very much appreciate your input though, and if there's anything else you can think of based on the new info I'd love to hear it  

You probably aren't going to like what I'm going to say but I **have** been there more than once.

A high protein food is very dangerous with a dog with low kidney function -- it's when the proteins get HIGH in urine that it places such a huge stress on the kidneys.  So typically a kidney diet is pretty darned low protein.  Don't fight the battle only to lose the war -- frankly at this point it should be whatever HELPS this dog and a lower protein diet would be a lot easier for him.

The best thing I have done for my two dogs with kidney issues (one was a cocker who developed renal failure after being treated for cancer and the chemo went on too long -- it was the vet's choice and we went with it).  The other dog was an elderly sheltie mix who began to slide into renal problems but with this same treatment he never lost renal function -- in fact it just 'held' for two years or more.

What treatment?  Acupuncture and Chinese herbals.  The U of Florida has TCVM (traditional Chinese veterinary medicine) as part of it's curriculum that they teach in vet school.  Acupuncture can bring incredible relief to a kidney dog and it can help the kidneys function better.  There are Chinese herbs that help a great deal.

http://www.tcvm.com -- there is a locator on the left.  It works.  INcredibly well.

Why would I not like what you had to say?? I thank you very much for responding. I have no problem with lowering his protein, I would just like to keep him on the brand he is currently on if possible because I do really like the brand. I have no problem switching though. I am more than willing to do anything in my power to make him better, whatever it takes that I can afford. I do have some limitations in that respect, but I'll take out a loan if I must. In my previous posts I was questioning the thought that the diet is what caused his low kidney function, not at all that I have concerns about dropping his protein level. I am trying to do whatever is best for him, and I value all opinions. The part where I said the Vet had agreed to let me put him on RF instead of Merrick was only because I really don't like Merrick, personally, not because I didn't want to drop the protein levels, but if it needs to be another brand fine. I am also a bit choosy as I said because my Golden is allergic to everything and having grain in a dog food in my house is not a place I'd like to visit. But again, I will if I have to. Right now, for the time being, he is on EVO RF and we will be retesting his levels in a few weeks.......

I will definitely be checking that link out!!! (I glanced at it, but it's quite late here and I must go to bed) Thank you so much I just wish I knew what caused this? He's just a baby

poor kidneys can just plain be genetic -- but if he's got problems now, I'd lower the protein levels considerably *now* because you don't want to over-stress the kidneys further and cause a downward spiral. 

SirDrakeOfTheCreek

I sincerely hope that this is not coming across harshly, I don't mean it to be, but I am fully aware of Lepto and infections and he is not in those categories.

Sorry it took me so long to get back to this.  No, you are not coming across harshly just emphatically.  I am glad that you have found a vet that you have so much confidence in.

However, the first observed symptom of Lepto can be sudden severe aggression (not misplaced aggression) when the initial organ attacked is the brain.  This is not a common Lepto symptom (there are more than 200 serovars) and some vets may not have seen it or even be aware of it.  Some such dogs may be destroyed rather than diagnosed and treated because the animal is just too dangerous to handle and there is a fear of rabies.  Aggression being an unusual Lepto symptom and some of the dogs being too dangerous to treat both contribute to a lack of knowledge about this aspect of Lepto.  Since Tucker was so severely ill with Parvo, I would be very surprised if the vet tried to make a definitive diagnosis of Lepto. 

Regardless of what was wrong with Tucker, you have ruled out Lepto and infection for Judge, so unless a cause is identified, diet is all that is left.  You have been given some, but not all, of these sites:

• http://www.dogaware.com/kidney.html
• http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/kidney-diet/
• http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/proteins-kidneys-senior-dogs/
• http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/K9KIDNEYS/
• http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/K9kidneydiet/

The DogAware site states:  "Do not feed commercial kidney diets to puppies: Commercial kidney diets are too low in calcium and phosporus to meet the needs of a growing puppy, even one with renal disease."

Also taken from that site:

Patricia Schenck, DVM, PhD, Veterinary Nutritionist

Dietary protein restriction is appropriate in renal failure when the disease has become severe. Restriction of protein is based on the appearance of clinical signs.  It has been recommended to start protein restriction when the dog's BUN (blood urea nitrogen) is greater than 80 mg/dL [28.6 mmol/L], and the serum creatinine is greater than 2.5 mg/dL [221 µmol/L].  Both BUN and serum creatinine are good indicators of kidney function.  Protein is restricted in an attempt to keep the BUN below 60 mg/dL [21.4 mmol/L].  Dietary protein may need to be gradually decreased over time as renal failure progresses.

As I understand it, lower phosphorus levels (rather than lower protein levels) are recommended until CRF becomes that advanced.  Monica Segal, a canine nutritionist, could help with designing a diet for Judge - www.monicasegal.com

Have you tested for Cushing’s disease, Addison’s disease, and diabetes?  Has Judge's blood pressure been checked?

When giving sub-cutaneous fluids to animals, sharper needles give less pain.  If you get to that point, check out this site for needle suggestions:  http://www.felinecrf.org/giving_sub-qs_giving_set.htm#needles.

However, the first observed symptom of Lepto can be sudden severe aggression (not misplaced aggression) when the initial organ attacked is the brain.  This is not a common Lepto symptom (there are more than 200 serovars) and some vets may not have seen it or even be aware of it.  Some such dogs may be destroyed rather than diagnosed and treated because the animal is just too dangerous to handle and there is a fear of rabies.  Aggression being an unusual Lepto symptom and some of the dogs being too dangerous to treat both contribute to a lack of knowledge about this aspect of Lepto.  Since Tucker was so severely ill with Parvo, I would be very surprised if the vet tried to make a definitive diagnosis of Lepto. 

Agreed! No, they certainly did not try to make any type of definitive diagnosis on poor little Tucker. As I said before they took him to a Vet that I have had the unfortunate occassion to be familiar with and I wouldn't let him work on my worst enemy That said the Vet that Judge sees has treated many cases of Lepto (several while I worked there) and so I am confident in their assurance

Have you tested for Cushing’s disease, Addison’s disease, and diabetes?  Has Judge's blood pressure been checked?

He has been checked for diabetes and was negative and his blood pressure has been checked several times and was in normal range. They have not checked for Cushings or Addison's at this point because there are not enough indicators to warrant doing so...

SirDrakeOfTheCreek

They want me to put him on Merrick, which I refused because I don't like Merrick, and I am working on VERY SLOWLY switching him to RF EVO, which is what Drake eats. They have agreed to that since everything is a bit lower in the RF.

This has me very confused.  Natura advertises the Reduced Fat EVO as "30% less fat than regular EVO Dog Food but with 20% MORE protein".  Unless you want Judge to lose weight, you will have to feed him more of the RF EVO, so it is hard to compare the percentages.  Wasn't your vet worried about high protein?

RF EVO vs EVO with the lower numbers in bold:

• Calories           3452.3  kcal/kg   3852.91  kcal/kg
• Moisture                7.5  %                7.5  %
• Protein                 52.5  %             43.16  %
• Fat                      15.0  %              22.22  %
• Linoleic Acid         2.24  %                 4.2  %
• Omega 3              0.59  %                0.52  %
• Carbohydrates       8.82  %              11.42  %
• Fiber                     1.54  %               1.52  %
• Ash                      11.3  %              11.14  %
• Calcium                2.21  %                2.55  %
• Phosphorous         1.41  %                1.57  %
• Magnesium            0.11  %               0.11  %
• Sodium                  0.32  %               0.38  %
• Potassium             0.79  %               0.77  %
• Chloride                 0.58  %               0.67  %
• Iron                     232  mg/kg         236  mg/kg
• Zinc                    210  mg/kg         226  mg/kg
• Copper                  17  mg/kg          18  mg/kg
• Iodine                   3.5  mg/kg         3.8  mg/kg
• Manganese           18  mg/kg          21  mg/kg
• Selenium            0.92  mg/kg          0.9  mg/kg
• Arginine                 3.88  %               3.09  %
• Histidine                1.0  %                 0.85  %
• etc

No, at this point in time my Vet is more concerned about Caloric and Fat content than the protein. We will be retesting his bloodwork in 5 weeks...and will then make a determination on whether or not protein levels need to change.

What are Judge's BUN and serum creatinine numbers?