Why do people get judged when asking a breeding question????

My "Hobby" is showing, I've personally never referred myself as a "hobby breeder". I refer myself as an ethical breeder and yes there is a big difference between the two. For my hobby, I have bred to supply myself a new show dog. Of course when you breed you don't typically get one puppy for you that is show quality. This is where in my case the ethical breeder comes in. I know I am more then likely going to produce 2 plus pups. I know that all dogs produced are not going to be show quality..heck, there might not be a show quality pup in the entire breeding which is why I won't breed unless I have a waiting list for pet puppies. I not only validate the dogs I'm breeding that they meet the quality of the breed standard, written by my parent club, supported by the AKC. I also health test to make sure the dogs I am breeding are of good health. Testing for cardiac, hips, patella and spines on frenchies. Thus contributing to the betterment of the breed.

Unethical, BYB and those who breed pet dogs are nine times out of ten NOT doing the health testing, not even sure what 3 sentences are in the breed standard of the dogs they are producing or probably where to even find it!!

There will always be subjective information everywhere, you just have to figure out what part is what works for you..My breed Am Staff/APBT has ended up in the crapper due to unethical/BYB's and those who want to "create" a dog that looks nothing like what the breed was originally intended to look like and function as...sad I bet the founders of the breed who worked so hard to get AKC recognition for thier dogs for the future of the breed are rolling over and over in theri graves with what the breed is going through today.

You are free to buy/adopt a dog anywhere. Rescuing one is very rewarding, especially those dogs who are head cases riddled with problems no other normal person would put up with...but there comes a point when you realize, despite your energy, income level and dedication you can't save them all. It is totally impossible with the volume of people who are breeding to "just produce dogs" to "suppliment their income" that end up in shelters/rescue/the streets because the breeder didn't qualify their prospective owners to match up the right dogs to the right people, not to mention the designer breeders. As much as I'd love to put on my rose colored glasses and say "we are gaining ground" I know on a daily basis we are not. I personally can and will do everything I can to help limit those pets in shelters by rescuing and taking on those difficult dogs and working with them and supporting them for all those who don't....so bringing this back on topic...thats why many people get attitude/judged when they ask breeding questions

I believe there are ethical BYB because that is how I got Blizzard and Drizzle, my Holy Grail dogs.  If I choose to do so, I would be an ethical BYB.  I also believe you can save them all otherwise I would not even do my part, there would be no point.  Unfortunately there are unethical BYB that use the dog to supplement their income and do harm to the quality of the breed.  It is also very unfortunate that anyone who is not a well known "show" breeder gets painted with an evil brush.  Yes, indignant, that is how the attitudes comes off.  Not a good quality in any person.

So Houndmusic, your very confident that what your doing is ok. How do you ensure that none of your puppies you have bred are not used for irrepsonsible breeding? Do you write up breeding contracts and follow through with them? If not you are inadvertently contributing to the potential decline of the breed you bred.

In addition you mention that you use the standard as a guide, participate in showing and sports even if it is sporadic.......THAT is a LOT more then most "hobby breeders". Your involved with the breed's community and are not breeding out of sentiment for wanting to see your dogs offspring or for money. So I guess we all have a differnt opinion of what a hobby breeder is. Houndmusic even though you breed for your personal prefference your also considering what is best for the dog, the offspring and their future. That is comendable, maybe not ideal but definitlye not without a reason to be proud of what you produce.

In addition I want to respond to your point made about the canine rage syndrom being a result of continous breeding for coat.......you inadvertently helped me make my point. Breeding for any exageration fo the standard is a irrepsonsible act.

DPU

I believe there are ethical BYB because that is how I got Blizzard and Drizzle, my Holy Grail dogs.  If I choose to do so, I would be an ethical BYB.  I also believe you can save them all otherwise I would not even do my part, there would be no point.  Unfortunately there are unethical BYB that use the dog to supplement their income and do harm to the quality of the breed.  It is also very unfortunate that anyone who is not a well known "show" breeder gets painted with an evil brush.  Yes, indignant, that is how the attitudes comes off.  Not a good quality in any person.

I wouldn't say that they are ethical BYB's...I'd say they are probably hobby breeders...and enjoy what they are doing. I really don't think you'd really want to be a BYB. I think you care more for the dogs and their well being to be that type of a breeder, if you were to be a breeder. I think, having learned what I have about you here that you are passionate and that would over come for you to be the best at what you are doing...BYB's don't do that. They only care about the $$$ they are making at minimal expense being put out.

 I also don't think that anyone who isn't a known show breeder gets painted with an evil brush like you state. I think those who should get the evil brush as you say, are those who put their gain ahead of what is right for the well being of what they are producing, they don't consider how/what they are doing affects more then just them and are not there to mentor you or solve behaviour issues(a big reason dogs end up in shelters/rescue), stand behind what they produce health wise. Thsoe are the people who should find another hobby besides breeding IMO

 If you're calling me indignant, no problem, I probably am, yes, most definatley I am. Then again I've been involved in saving dogs and re-habing them since 1990...it's been a long time, big expense and I don't see it getting better. In fact I see it much worse now then it ever was. I limited my breeding program for 7 years because of the problems in my breed and showed dogs other people bred because I wanted to focus on BSL and education but still remain in the sport of showing pure bred dogs. Please show me a hobby breeder or BYB that cared that much about their breed(s) to do the same and still support the dogs they had. I can point fingers at show people who once they are done with a dog they send them to the shelter as well...it isn't a perfect world but novice breeders, after all thats what this thread is about, isn't it? Novice breeders SHOULD learn more about the process before they jump feet first into the breeding and start asking questions. After poopoo has been bred and is having problems and they don't know what to do nor do they want to take the dog to the vet because they haven't saved up any money for vet costs and don't feel that a c-section is needed, no instead those people come to a dog forum like this one and ask what to do. That is my bigger issue and why I feel most of the poeple who judge, judge.

Breeding two dogs $0.00

Complications during birthing $1200.00 and up

Care of the litter till their all homed $800.00 and up

Learning that it's too much out of pocket expense that is never returned if you do it right before you start and that you still have to keep them after 8 weeks if you can't even give them away=PRICELESS

Never, let me repeat NEVER have I made a red cent or come close to breaking even in all the time I've been involved in dogs. The money I spent last year alone would have bought me a nice motor home. Compiled with all the years I've been doing this I could have boats, new cars and custom built house or a really good drug habit. All in all if I had it to do over or change one minute of it, I wouldn't change a thing. I love what I do with my dogs. I can only hope that other will learn to do things better and for the dogs and not to try and suppliment their funds by consistantly producing dogs without knowledge first

AuroraLove

Hobby breeders or people who breed "pet quality" are doing no favor to themselves, the animals or they customers. If we gradualyl lower our standards over the years what are we going to have left?

Maybe it depends on breed, but with GSDs a "hobby" breeder is a breeder that breeds, trains, competes, and titles their own dogs and are not the same as a BYB, they are considered the best source for a dog.  All of the most reputable breeders I have met and am aware of are "hobby" breeders. 

Just to clarify, when the majority of people use the term "hobby breeder" they mean someone who is involved somehow in the sport of dogs as a hobby. They are not professional because they do not make their living at it.

A hobby is not something that you do casually. It involves a commitment of time and money. It is something that you are involved in for an ongoing period of time. If you are not investing considerable time and energy, it is not a hobby, it's just a pasttime.

It really helps when people stick to the common usage of a term.

AuroraLove

So Houndmusic, your very confident that what your doing is ok. How do you ensure that none of your puppies you have bred are not used for irrepsonsible breeding? Do you write up breeding contracts and follow through with them? If not you are inadvertently contributing to the potential decline of the breed you bred.

AuroraLove

In addition you mention that you use the standard as a guide, participate in showing and sports even if it is sporadic.......THAT is a LOT more then most "hobby breeders".

     A hobby breeder is someone that breeds for themselves first, then sells the pups that don't fit into the breeding program. A hobby breeder usually has limited litters available, and can either breed for pet, show, working. Hobby breeders are almost always just smaller scale breeders that have taken the time to educate themselves on the issues of the breed. While BYBs are amateurs. They are the "one litter" people that have no concept of genetics, their breed, etc. They breed their Fluffy to Rover down the street. They have nothing to offer the breed but genetic junk. There are professional breeders that only breed pet quality dogs, and hobby breeders that beeed pet quality. When did pet quality become a bad word? My dogs are technically pet quality in the eyes of some, because save for one, none fo them are titled. The vast majority go to pet homes, and those families are very happy to have well bred pet dogs. 

AuroraLove

In addition I want to respond to your point made about the canine rage syndrom being a result of continous breeding for coat.......you inadvertently helped me make my point. Breeding for any exageration fo the standard is a irrepsonsible act.

     I agree that breeding for exaggerations is unhealthy for the breed - but the problem is that many times it's the ones breeding TO standard that are causing the problems with the interpretations. Which is why I'll stick to "pet quality". As I mentioned I do want certain attributes that make a Beagle a Beagle, however I try not to breed for any sport, which all favor fads. I've heard some nightmare stories regarding judges who wouldn't know what a real "insert breed here" was if it came up and bit them on the posterior

HoundMusic

They have nothing to offer the breed but genetic junk.

Funny, I am fine with genetic junk.  A lot of people are.  Have them in my house all the time.  The fosters get adopted to caring families and make wonderful pets.  I wonder why someone would say such  a thing about a lovely household pet. I surely would not judge those owner's decision to get a "genetic junk" dog nor would I slam the dog for having a good life.

Houndmusic, I think your health guarantee is worthless if it has to be invoked.  Is it true that most health guarantee just replace the dog but does not pay to get the dog healthy?   Why in world would someone take another dog from a breeder who has been proven to produce an unhealthy dog.

Although this can happen to any dog, random breedings are no guarentee of health.  Genetic junk can be pretty hard to live with.  My 250.00 GSD ended up with two major surgeries, an autoimmune disorder, a temperment problem, and hip dysplasia.  I doubt many folks would have the ability to lay out the time, training, and money resources it was necessary to keep that dog alive and safe (and others safe from him).  Granted that could have happened in a "responsible" breeder situation as well, but at least there were would have been a greater chance of medical records to influence breeding decisions and some contractual resource I could have accessed. 

DPU

HoundMusic

They have nothing to offer the breed but genetic junk.

 

Funny, I am fine with genetic junk.  A lot of people are.  Have them in my house all the time.  The fosters get adopted to caring families and make wonderful pets.  I wonder why someone would say such  a thing about a lovely household pet. I surely would not judge those owner's decision to get a "genetic junk" dog nor would I slam the dog for having a good life.

Houndmusic, I think your health guarantee is worthless if it has to be invoked.  Is it true that most health guarantee just replace the dog but does not pay to get the dog healthy?   Why in world would someone take another dog from a breeder who has been proven to produce an unhealthy dog.

     I was actually agreeing with you, regarding pet breeders sometimes being the better alternative for the average family looking for a good companion pup. Pet breeders can be hobby breeders, professionals - it's very rare show/working breeders will even sell more than a few pups to the general public anyway. BYBs are amateurs. Not people with breeding programs who just happen to favor breeding for pets instead of for the show ring, etc. If your breeder has no understanding of genetics, he is not a pet breeder, he is an amateur or worse, an idiot.

     As for your thoughts towards my health guarantee ... I think you've lost me with your reasoning   My health guarantee will either replace the dog or pay for most of the purchase price, owner keeps pup either way. Why would they take another pup from me? Because genetic problems are an "oops" not a staple in a good breeder's program. No one can produce 100% genetically healthy dogs 100% of the time. It's not mathmetacially possible. That does not mean that because on pup was sick, the breeder was somehow proven to be producing sickly pups! Outrageous!
     I am not obligated to pay their Vet bills unless the illness was blatantly my fault (i.e. if pup caught a communicable disease at my home). Where in the world do you get that someone with a health guarantee is selling pups that are proven to be sick? That's quite a stretch of the imagination! Rather, I'd think if someone has the balls to stand behind their pups, they're quite confident that what they produce has been consistantly healthy. I have not had a genetic health issue to this date (knock on wood!) with a pup I have produced, or out of the stud dog I bred who has sired a few litters for me. Thus, my guarantee is like a reassurance to the customer that I feel strongly about the health of my pups, and will stand by them should something go wrong.

DPU--How can you say you are "fine" with genetic junk.  Maybe you welcome those dogs into your home and help them as did I.  But, no I'm not "fine" with what was done to get her here. 

HoundMusic

     I was actually agreeing with you, regarding pet breeders sometimes being the better alternative for the average family looking for a good companion pup.

First of all - I agree with MA - everyone should be able to ask a question, no matter what it is, and be treated kindly and with respect.

You know, when I first found this site I was very excited and I have really enjoyed it.  The information is wonderful and because all of us love our dogs and have had so many various experiences, breeds, etc, there is just a wealth of knowledge here.  We all have a lot of passion about our dogs, whatever breed we own. What a wonderful resource! 

But time and time again, this resource is wasted. If someone asks a question that someone else thinks is 'stupid' or 'uneducated' or whatever the word they want to use is, they jump down their throat. They give lectures and use scare tactics, they are snotty, and all in the name of 'caring for the welfare of dogs' and 'wanting to prevent overpopulation'.  Both wonderful things, by the way. 

BUT - if I were someone new to this site and had no real dog knowledge and wanted to breed my very cute dog (whatever breed, color, size, personality, faults), and I came on and asked a 'dumb' breeding question, I think that some of these answers would just make me never come back to this site again.  I would not go away with anything positive and I would not have learned anything to make me rethink my breeding idea.  And what a waste.  Right there we did a disservice to our goal of preventing overpopulation, preserving breed standards, and promoting responsible breeding practices.

So this person didn't go to some internet sites, or the vet, or a reputable breeder and get some knowledge first - can't we be that first resource for that person?  Can't we kindly and respectfully educate?  And can't we share our opinions in a nice way without cutting on this person?  I am just so sad to see such wasted opportunity, all in the name of our passion for our dogs.  Let's get real here.  The passion I see here is to push our personal ideas and ideals, not caring what we say or how we say it.  To a new person, much of the responses to the original post are just nasty, pushy, arrogant responses. It's very sad. I don't think our dogs would appreciate the way we are representing their welfare. 

One more thing I want to share is this.  Years ago when my husband and I first married we had an Alaskan Malamute bitch that was awesome.  We trained her and showed her and she was just a wonderful representation of the breed. So you know what we did?  We bred her.  Twice.  We were your typical 'back yard breeders' who didn't have a clue, because even though she was really great, the sire we bought was not a proven dog in any way.  He was AKC registered, big, and very pretty.  That's about it.  We sold our pups with a life-long return contract and we did actually get two dogs back - one within a year because of a move, one a couple years down the road because of a divorce.  Should we have bred our dogs?  By most standards, probably not. Would I do it again?  I'm sorry to inflame things, but I have no regrets.  It was an awesome experience.  For those who say watching their bitch give birth was scary and awful, I'm sorry - I thought it was wonderful and totally incredible.  We lost a pup or two and that was sad.  Birth is a natural thing. Like all natural things, there are good and bad experiences. My point - if someone decides to breed their dog, let them enjoy the experience.  Not all births are traumatic and awful. 

Now I have Standard Poodles.  These dogs were chosen very carefully, with possible showing and breeding in mind.  This time I know to do genetic testing, etc.  Will I breed them?  I don't know.  Depends on a lot of things. I will do appropriate testing and a lot of research.  And I will decide, regardless of what anyone else thinks.  I do feel bad that if I have any questions I probably wouldn't feel comfortable asking anyone on this site - again, what a waste of some wonderful knowledge and help.  How sad is that?   

Without reading anyother answers first I will offer my opinion,  I m a BREEDER of an unusual and very powerful dog. I go out of my way to discourage people from getting into our breede , especially if they do so thinkning they will be able to "make their money back" by breeding a litter or two...  Breeding is expensive, it is not a hobby for the average "joe"      

Breeding dogs is NOT for sissies.  There are a million reasons why very few people should ever consider breeding.  You can star off with the damages and harm that can come to the breeding pair if you do not know what you are doing, go onto the possible loss of the dam while whelping , the loss of puppies , then you go on to the genetic issues that require a breeder to make some toughcalls. Our breed has specific health issues that are beyond costly to try to correct.  In these cases you have to be able to cull that puppy to prevent it from suffering needlessly.

In addition there are a million things you must do prior to placing pups. There are hundreds of folks who won't even consider havei ng dewclaws taken off yet they may not be there in the future when the pup runs the kure and tears one badly causing a horribly disfiguring injury and possible damage that may reduce the dog to a total limp or possible amputation.   Saying no to folks who seem nice but do not meet your profile for successful placement and them keeping in touch with them ... it is an endless and mostly thankless job. For every puppy you whelp idealy you will have 8-12 homes applying for it. The only way to do this is to show your dogs actively , be out there enough that people will become familiar with you, you line and your ethics.   Sitting at home and having a litter is not going to bring the number of applicants to allow you to pick ad chose with great care.

            You get phone calls around the clock and you have to be there... the only excuse for not taking a call is being in the ring or taking care of yet another emergency, you r puppy families must be able to get in touch with you 24/7 for as long as it takes for them to feel comfortable.

If you are breeding two very sweet dogs of unknown parantage so the kids and yourself can wittness the miracle of birth you are just bringing more harm to the over crowded shelters . If you are breeding untested and unfinshed purebreds you are basically doing the same thing , only you can charge a little more for the pups.  

Each litter we have , we invest several thousand dollars in to them before the litter is ever on the way. Testing for the genetic hot spots for our breed is pricely, finishing a dogs let alone a pair is very expensive.   

All of this being said I Agree with you people should beable to ask questions and get sincere and honest answers , once the breeding has occured all of the discouraging things many of us feel obligated to say are moot , since the pups are on the way and now it is time to assist you in getting ready to whelp the litter with the best possible results.

If you ever need information I would be happy to help, pm me and I will talk you through anything I can,   But I do feel it is only honest to be upfront with why I never encourgae anyone to breed a litter.

Bonita of Bwana