VACCINES--For HEALTHY Dogs ONLY!

    • Gold Top Dog

     PERMISSION GRANTED TO CROSS-POST THIS MESSAGE.

        Every dog owner has the right to know the documented durations of immunity for the core canine vaccines as well as the adverse reactions associated with them -- not all veterinarians provide their clients with full disclosure prior to vaccinating their animals. 

      The abrasive tone in your (whtsthfrequency) responses to my posts suggests that you may be one of those in the veterinary trade who is concerned about the vaccine information I share with the dog-owning public, and which poses a threat to veterinary income.      Veterinary trade publications have frankly addressed the issue of the link between vaccines and income.

        For instance, in an August 2004 cover story in Veterinary Economics entitled Targeting Changing Vaccine Protocols by Roger F. Cummings, they state that: "In the 1970s and ’80s many veterinarians derived a substantial percent of their total incomes from vaccinating dogs and cats. .....And in many practices today, the vaccination reminder is the one thing that drives visits from healthy pets. So changing your vaccine protocols could have a significant affect on practice finances."
     
         Dr. Alice Wolf, Professor of Small Animal Internal Medicine at Texas A&M College of Veterinary Medicine, stated in an address (Vaccines of the Present and Future http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB/Proceedings/PR05000/PR00141.htm) at the 2001 World Small Animal Veterinary Association World Congress that: some veterinarians use the recommendation for vaccinations as a way to ensure client visits for yearly examinations and, least appropriate, as a ‘profit center.’
     
        In an October 1, 2002 DVM Newsletter article entitled, AVMA, AAHA to Release Vaccine Positions, http://www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=35171, Jennifer Fiala reports, "The statement stresses AVMA's stance on education, a reduction in the profession's dependence on vaccine sales, which account for a significant portion of practice income, ..........Veterinarians must promote the value of the exam and move away from their dependence on vaccine income. "
     
        DVM's July 1, 2003 article,  Developing Common Sense Strategies for Fiscal Responsibility http://www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=61694  declares that, "The purpose of this article is to focus on the third of these essential cornerstones: the economic realities of protocol changes, and how medical and surgical standards including reduced frequency of vaccination can be compatible with financial viability; and, yes, even success. ........For a real eye-opener of potential revenue loss, research practice records for the most recent 12 months of client activity to determine the estimated number of adult canine patients that were seen for annual vaccinations. Multiply this number times the revenue loss calculated above on an individual patient basis to determine the total potential lost income. "
     
        From a July 1, 2003 DVM article entitled, What Do We Tell Our Clients? , http://www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=61696, It has finally happened. The American Animal Hospital Association (AAHA) has released canine vaccine guidelines. Some practitioners may dread it and consider the recommendations as a 'PRACTICE BUSTER.' ......The concern of course is the loss of our 'VACCINE HOOK.' "
     
    The 2003 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are accessible online at Special Report .
     
    The 2006 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are downloadable in PDF format at About AAHA . 
     
        If anyone would like copies of the American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines, the 1992 French challenge study demonstrating that dogs were immune to a rabies challenge 5 years after vaccination, the 2003 Italian study documenting fibrosarcomas at the presumed injection sites of rabies vaccines in dogs, as well as Dr.  W. Jean Dodds' papers on vaccinal adverse reactions, please e-mail me at ledgespring@lincoln.midcoast.com.
    • Gold Top Dog

    Not everyone is as fortunate as you are to be fully informed about veterinary vaccines.  Having more information available to them in order to make an INFORMED choice could help dog guardians avoid redundant vaccinations and the potentially significant adverse reactions associated with them.

    Every dog owner has the right to know the documented durations of immunity for the core canine vaccines and the risks associated with them.  Here in America, there is the principle of freedom of speech, as well as the right to know.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Admin speaking... 

    Just for the sake of education, this is the internet, not America, even though it is an American site..  No one has the right to freedom of speech, in practice, on a privately owned message board - there ARE things people are not allowed to say here.  Not that the original post contains any of those things, but I thought I'd clarify that for anyone reading.

    Though I agree these posts are more blog like in nature, there is no harm in posting them as threads.  I would request, however, that use of capitalised words in the threat titles is kept to a minimum.  When thread titles or posts are all or mostly in caps,  it is considered shouting and therefore rude.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    The abrasive tone in your (whtsthfrequency) responses to my posts suggests that you may be one of those in the veterinary trade who is concerned about the vaccine information I share with the dog-owning public, and which poses a threat to veterinary income

    You assume to know my stance, when in fact you are very wrong - People on this board who know me, know that I advocate holistic diets, I advocate minimal vaccination, and  I am actually in the process of founding a student chapter of the American Holistic Veterinary Medicine Association at my school.  But, you're quick to try to paint me as some sort of vet/vet student who simply wants to make money off of shooting dogs up. I do not vax for Lepto, nor would I advocate it.

    I urge you to 1) take a step back from the thinly-veiled accusations, 2) do not presume to insinuate that I am close-minded or worried about my "income" rather than patient health, when you have no idea what my stance actually is on such issues, and also 3) do not presume that because I am in veterinary school / the "veterinary trade" I have been brainwashed into vaccinating everything with four legs....

     I don't think my tone was "abrasive" (to-the-point or even blunt, perhaps, but not abrasive/nasty).  I was simply asking you why you were posting all of this, and  then asking you to elucidate why you thought diet cured your dog because logically it was not a certainty, and specific info about the rabies trial - which is still unanswered.

    • Gold Top Dog
    I have to say Kris, I find people far more abrasive that assume I don't know things and preach at me. Just for future reference, you should know your audience before you go start trying to "teach". Many here likely know more about the subject then you even do. Just a thought.
    • Gold Top Dog

    Fifteen fibrosarcomas, surgically excised from presumed sites of injection in dogs, and 10 canine fibrosarcomas excised from sites not used for injection were histologically and immunohistochemically compared with 20 feline post-vaccinal fibrosarcomas. ............The present study identifies distinct similarities between canine fibrosarcomas from presumed injection sites and feline post-vaccinal fibrosarcomas, suggesting the possibility of the development of post-injection sarcomas not only in cats, but also in dogs.

     Again, I am all in favor of minimal vaccination, before you accuse me of being a nay-sayer. But I also have a strong research background and I can tell you right now that this study a)  jumps to incorrect conclusions (see below reasons) and b) only "suggests the possibilty" - does not give a definitive answer, and you are saying it does. I can't believe this actually got into JAVMA.

    -remember, a total of 45 samples does NOT constitute a representative population

    - these were "presumed sites" not even actual sites

    - histological grading is subjective.

    - this study only says that dog sarcomas can physically look like cat sarcomas . OF COURSE they do...any pathologist could tell you that. Sarcomas look alike -that is why thery are sarcomas - they develop from the same type of tissues, they are not melanomas, not leukemias, not lymphomas, etc. 

    -It says NOTHING about proving a vaccine causes a sarcoma in a dog

    Below is the Journal of Veterinary Medicine abstract of an important study demonstrating that dogs develop fibrosarcomas at vaccination sites, just as cats do

    See the above answer. The study doesn't say anything NEAR that. Such a statement is pure conjecture.

    • Gold Top Dog

    We have actually discussed this issue before Kris if you use the search button.  If you would like help understanding the studies there are several vets/docs/nurses/scientists on this board who could help you (such as the above poster or myself or misskiwi). 

    • Gold Top Dog
    What ever happened to misskiwi? I wanted to ask her how boards went....OT, sorry.
    • Gold Top Dog
    PERMISSION GRANTED TO CROSS-POST THIS MESSAGE.
     
    Regarding the Bordetella (Kennel Cough) vaccine, on Page 2 of the American Animal Hospital Association's 2003 Canine Vaccine Guidelines and Recommendations, it states that "Optional or 'noncore' vaccines are those that the committee believe should be considered only in special circumstances because their use is more dependent  on the exposure risk of the individual animal.  Issues of geographic distribution and lifestyle should be considered before administering these vaccines.  In addition, the diseases involved are generally self-limiting or respond readily to treatment.  The committee believes this group of vaccines comprises distemper-meases virus (D-MV), canine parainfluenza virus (CPIV), Leptospira spp., Bordetella bronchispetica, and Borrelia burdorferi."
     
    Further, on Page 14 of the AAHA Guidelines, it states:  "Bordetella bronchiseptica (B. bronchiseptica): Bordetella bronchiseptica is another cause of the “kennel cough” syn-drome. Infection in some susceptible dogs generally causes a self-limiting, upper respiratory disease and rarely causes life-threatening disease in otherwise healthy animals. Clini-cal disease resolves quickly when treated with appropriate antibiotics. Vaccination does not block infection but appears to lessen clinical disease, and vaccines provide a short DOI (<1 year) [table 2]. It is also unknown whether current vac-cine strains protect against all field strains."
     
    Combination Vaccines, Multiple Shots--on Page 16 of the 2003 AAHA Guidelines under Immunological Factors Determining Vaccine Safetyit states that:  "Although increasing the number of components in a vaccine may be more convenient for the practitioner or owner, the likelihood for adverse effects may increase. Also, interference can occur among the components. Care must be taken not to administer a product containing too many vaccines simultaneously if adverse events are to be avoided and optimal immune responses are sought. "
     
    Duration of Immunity to Canine Vaccines: What We Know and Don't Know, Dr. Ronald Schultz http://www.cedarbayvet.com/duration_of_immunity.htm
     
    World Small Animal Veterinary Association 2007 Vaccine Guidelines http://www.wsava.org/SAC.htmScroll down to Vaccine Guidelines 2007 (PDF)
     
    The 2003 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are accessible online at http://www.leerburg.com/special_report.htm
     
    The 2006 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are downloadable in PDF format at http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocumen...s06Revised.pdf
     
    Veterinarian, Dr. Robert Rogers,has an excellent presentation on veterinary vaccines at http://www.newvaccinationprotocols.com/
    • Gold Top Dog
    I wanted to post this in case anyone's dog has experienced this particular reaction to rabies vaccination and they wondered what was happening.
     

    Ischemic Dermatopathy / Cutaneous vasculitis
     
    A little known and often misdiagnosed reaction to the rabies vaccine in dogs, this problem may develop near or over the vaccine administration site and around the vaccine material that was injected, or as a more widespread reaction. Symptoms include ulcers, scabs, darkening of the skin, lumps at the vaccine site, and scarring with loss of hair. In addition to the vaccination site, lesions most often develop on the ear flaps (pinnae), on the elbows and hocks, in the center of the footpads and on the face. Scarring may be permanent. Dogs do not usually seem ill, but may develop fever. Symptoms may show up within weeks of vaccination, or may take months to develop noticeably.
     
    Dogs with active lesion development and / or widespread disease may be treated with pentoxyfylline, a drug that is useful in small vessel vasculitis, or tacrolimus, an ointment that will help suppress the inflammation in the affected areas.
     
    Owners and veterinarians of dogs who have developed this type of reaction should review the vaccination protocol critically and try to reduce future vaccinations to the extent medically and legally possible. At the very least, vaccines from the same manufacturer should be avoided. It is also recommended that the location in which future vaccinations are administered should be changed to the rear leg, as far down on the leg as possible and should be given in the muscle rather than under the skin.
     
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_of_dogs
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
    A retrospective study of canine and feline cutaneous vasculitis
    Patrick R. Nichols**Animal Allergy and Dermatology Center of Central Texas, 4434 Frontier Trail, Austin, Texas 78745, USA
    Daniel O. Morris††Department of Clinical Studies, Veterinary Hospital, University of Pennsylvania, 3850 Spruce St., Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19104, USA and
    Karin M. Beale‡‡Gulf Coast Veterinary Dermatology and Allergy, 1111 West Loop South, Suite 120, Houston, Texas 77027, USA
    *Animal Allergy and Dermatology Center of Central Texas, 4434 Frontier Trail, Austin, Texas 78745, USA †Department of Clinical Studies, Veterinary Hospital, University of Pennsylvania, 3850 Spruce St., Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19104, USA ‡Gulf Coast Veterinary Dermatology and Allergy, 1111 West Loop South, Suite 120, Houston, Texas 77027, USA
    Correspondence: Daniel O. Morris, Department of Clinical Studies, Veterinary Hospital, University of Pennsylvania, 3850 Spruce St., Philadelphia, PA 19104, USA. E-mail:domorris@vet.upenn.edu
    Abstract
     
    Twenty-one cases of cutaneous vasculitis in small animals (dogs and cats) were reviewed, and cases were divided by clinical signs into five groups. An attempt was made to correlate clinical types of vasculitis with histological inflammatory patterns, response to therapeutic drugs and prognosis. Greater than 50% of the cases were idiopathic, whereas five were induced by rabies vaccine, two were associated with hypersensitivity to beef, one was associated with lymphosarcoma and two were associated with the administration of oral drugs (ivermectin and itraconazole). Only the cases of rabies vaccine-induced vasculitis in dogs had a consistent histological inflammatory pattern (mononuclear/nonleukocytoclastic) and were responsive to combination therapy with prednisone and pentoxifylline, or to prednisone alone. Most cases with neutrophilic or neutrophilic/eosinophilic inflammatory patterns histologically did not respond to pentoxifylline, but responded to sulfone/sulfonamide drugs, prednisone, or a combination of the two.
     
    http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.0959-4493.2001.00268.x
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Vitale, Gross, Magro (1999)
    Vaccine-induced ischemic dermatopathy in the dog
    Veterinary Dermatology 10 (2), 131–142.
    doi:10.1046/j.1365-3164.1999.00131.x
     
    Prev Article Next Article
    Full Article
    Vaccine-induced ischemic dermatopathy in the dog
    Vitale,
    Gross &
    Magro
    1Department of Medicine and Epidemiology, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of California, Davis, California 95616, USA, 2IDDEX Veterinary Services, California Dermatopathology Service, 2825 KOVR Drive, West Sacramento, California 95605, USA, 3Department of Pathology, Beth Israel Hospital, Harvard Medical School, Pathology Services, Inc., 640 Memorial Drive, Cambridge, Massuchusetts 02139, USA
    Correspondence to: Carlo B. Vitale
    Present address: Encina Veterinary Hospital, 2803 Ygnacio Valley Road, Walnut Creek, California 94598, USA.
    Abstract
    Post-rabies vaccination alopecia associated with concurrent multifocal ischemic dermatopathy was identified in three unrelated dogs. All dogs received subcutaneous rabies vaccine dorsally between the scapulae several months prior to observation of the initial area of alopecia at the vaccination site. All three dogs developed multifocal cutaneous disease within 1–5 months after the appearance of the initial skin lesion. Cutaneous lesions were characterized clinically by variable alopecia, crusting, hyperpigmentation, erosions, and ulcers on the pinnal margins, periocular areas, skin overlying boney prominences, tip of the tail, and paw pads. Lingual erosions and ulcers were observed in two dogs. Histopathologic examination of the skin revealed moderate to severe follicular atrophy, hyalinization of collagen, vasculopathy, and cell-poor interface dermatitis and mural folliculitis. Hypovascularity was demonstrated by diminished Factor VIII staining of blood vessels. Nodular accumulations of lymphocytes, plasma cells, and histiocytes in the deep dermis and panniculus also were noted at the rabies vaccination site. An atrophic, ischemic myopathy paralleling the onset of skin disease was identified in two dogs. Histological examination of muscle biopsy specimens demonstrated perifascicular atrophy, perimysial fibrosis, and complement (C) 5b-9 (membrane attack complex) deposition in the microvasculature of both dogs with myopathy. Marked improvement of the skin disease was obtained with oral pentoxifylline and vitamin E.
     
     
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The Armed Forces Institute of Pathology
    Department of Veterinary Pathology
    WEDNESDAY SLIDE CONFERENCE
    2002-2003
     
    CONFERENCE 19
    26 February 2003
     
    Conference Moderator:
    Dr. Michael Goldschmidt, MSc, BVMS, MRCVS Diplomate, ACVP
    Professor, School of Veterinary Medicine
    University of Pennsylvania
    Philadelphia, PA 19104-6051
     
    CASE II - 2513-02 (AFIP 2839301)
     
    Signalment: 5-year-old, male, castrated, canine, Chihuahua
    History: One by three cm lesion on the dorso-lateral neck
    Gross Pathology: None
    03WSC19 - 2 -
    Laboratory Results: None
     
    Contributor’s Morphologic Diagnosis: Post-rabies vaccination alopecia with injection site granuloma and panniculitis
     
    Contributor’s Comment: The hair follicles are markedly atretic and their lower portions are replaced by an eosinophilic, hyaline stroma. The deeper dermis also has a cleft or seroma pocket that is partially lined by a thin layer of foamy macrophages and multinucleated giant cells with more peripheral lymphoid nodules with many scattered dermal macrophages, lymphocytes and plasma cells. Scattered melanin-laden macrophages (positive with Fontana-Masson melanin stain and negative for hemosiderin with a Prussian blue stain) are in the hyalinized lengths of the hair follicles with a few beneath the epidermal basement membrane (pigmentary incontinence).
     
    This is post-rabies vaccination alopecia with an underlying injection site granuloma. Post-rabies vaccination alopecia is most commonly seen in toy or small breeds, especially Poodles, but Chihuahua cases have been reported. The lesion usually develops three to six months after vaccination. 
     
    Other reports describe mild to severe lymphocytic inflammation with macrophages in the superficial or deep dermis or scattered around hair follicle remnants. The dermis may have smudging of the collagen, especially around the hair follicles. Rabies vaccine antigen has been found in the hair follicle epithelium and in the walls of vessels in the area. One report of focal alopecia developing in all twelve of twelve inbred miniature Poodles injected with a killed rabies vaccine two months earlier suggest that there may be a familial predisposition to this apparently idiosyncratic, hypersensitivity reaction to the antigen.
     
    http://www.afip.org/vetpath/WSC/wsc02/02wsc19.pdf
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Article entitled, ISCHEMIC SKIN DISEASE IN THE DOG by Dr. Peter J. Ihrke, VMD, DACVD
    Professor of Dermatology, Chief, Dermatology Service, VMTH, Department of Medicine & Epidemiology, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of California, Davis, CA, USA presented at the World Small Animal Veterinary Association 2006 Congress (article accessible at http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=WSAVA2006&PID=15765&O=Generic).
     
    The following are quotes from Dr. Ihrke's presentation:
     
    3.  Localized post-rabies vaccination panniculitis (Post-Rabies): A localized ischemic skin disease associated with a rabies vaccination site and temporal link with the vaccination.
     
    4.  Generalized vaccine-induced ischemic dermatopathy (GVIID): A generalized ischemic skin disease with a temporal linkage with rabies vaccination, but with more severe generalized post-rabies vaccination-associated disease.
     
    2.  Post-rabies vaccination associated disease is presumed to be due to an idiosyncratic immunologic reaction to rabies antigen that partially targets vessels. Rabies viral antigen can be documented in the walls of dermal blood vessels and in the epithelium of hair follicles via immunofluorescent testing. Since this syndrome is seen predominantly in very small dogs, it is tempting to speculate that the disease may be partially linked to increased antigenic load in comparison to the body size of the dog, since the same volume of rabies vaccine is given to all dogs subcutaneously.
     
    Initial lesions--an alopecic macule or plaque develops at the site of prior subcutaneous rabies vaccine deposition. The time between vaccination and noting of the lesion usually is between one and three months. [/b]
    __________________________________________________________________________
     
    BeerCutaneous Vasculitis and Vasculopathy
    Verena K. Affolter
    School of Veterinary Medicine, University of California, Davis
    Davis, CA, USA
     
    " Immune-mediated vasculitis is typically triggered by an adverse drug reaction (antibiotics, nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory medications, vaccines,...."
     
    "Vaccine-induced vasculitis is mainly seen in small breed dogs...."
     
    "Acute vasculitis--Legs and feet, ears, lips, tip of the tail, ***, and oral mucosa are mostly affected. These areas are more vulnerable as their blood supply has limited collateral circulation. With cutaneous vasculitis erythema, ecchymoses, areas of necrosis, and well-demarcated, "punched out" ulcers, and occasionally hemorrhagic bullae and/or pustules are seen. Erythema caused by vasculitis does not blanche with diascopy because of extravasation of the red blood cells. Subcutaneous vasculitis presents as nodular lesions. Systemic vasculitis causes variable clinical signs depending on the organ systems involved: phasic pyrexia, lethargy, anorexia, myalgia, arthralgia, lymphadenopathy and nasal discharge are seen. Wide spread systemic vasculitis may progress into shock and disseminated intravascular coagulation.

    Chronic vasculitis--Less severe or slowly progressive vasculitis results in low-grade ischemia. Clinically these cases become evident at a chronic stage. Patchy alopecia, scaling, erythema and hyperpigmentation are seen. Lesions typically involve the pinnae, face, feet and tip of the tail often occurring over pressure points."

    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    Combination Vaccines, Multiple Shots--on Page 16 of the 2003 AAHA Guidelines under Immunological Factors Determining Vaccine Safetyit states that:  "Although increasing the number of components in a vaccine may be more convenient for the practitioner or owner, the likelihood for adverse effects may increase. Also, interference can occur among the components. Care must be taken not to administer a product containing too many vaccines simultaneously if adverse events are to be avoided and optimal immune responses are sought. "
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
    Duration of Immunity to Canine Vaccines: What We Know and Don't Know, Dr. Ronald Schultz http://www.cedarbayvet.com/duration_of_immunity.htm
     
    World Small Animal Veterinary Association 2007 Vaccine Guidelines http://www.wsava.org/SAC.htmScroll down to Vaccine Guidelines 2007 (PDF)
     
    The 2003 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are accessible online at http://www.leerburg.com/special_report.htm .
     
    The 2006 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are downloadable in PDF format at http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocumen...s06Revised.pdf .
     
    Veterinarian, Dr. Robert Rogers,has an excellent presentation on veterinary vaccines at http://www.newvaccinationprotocols.com/
    • Gold Top Dog

    This is what Dr. Ronald Schultz had to say in his 2007 presentation to the AKC Canine Health Foundation entitled, What Everyone Needs to Know About Canine Vaccines and Vaccination Programs:

     "An antibody titer no matter how low shows the animal has immunologic memory since memory effector B cells must be present to produce that antibody. Some dogs without antibody are protected from disease because they have T cell memory, that will provide cell mediated immunity (CMI). CMI will not protect from reinfection, but it will prevent disease."

    "My own dogs, those of my children and grandchildren are vaccinated with MLV CDV, CPV-2, CPI, andCAV-2 vaccines once as puppies after the age of 12 weeks. An antibody titer is performedtwo or more weeks later and if found positive our dogs are never again vaccinated. "

    The vaccines in the quote above are CDV (distemper), CPV-2 (parvovirus), CPI (canine parainfluenza), and CAV-2 (hepatitis), and Dr. Ronald Schultz is the Chair of the Department of Pathobiological Sciences at the University of Wisconsin School of Veterinary Medicine.  His challenge and serological studies on canine vaccines form a large part of the scientific data base upon which the 2003 and 2006 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are based, as well as the 2007 World Small Animal Veterinary Association's Vaccine Guidelines.

    Duration of Immunity to Canine Vaccines: What We Know and Don't Know, Dr. Ronald Schultz http://www.cedarbayvet.com/duration_of_immunity.htm
     
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    I just found an online link to Dr. Schultz's speech .
     
     What Everyone Needs to Know about Canine Vaccines, Dr. Ronald Schultz http://www.puliclub.org/CHF/AKC2007Conf/What%20Everyone%20Needs%20to%20Know%20About%20Canine%20Vaccines.htm 
     
    Kris
     
     
    • Gold Top Dog

    In the August 2008 issue of The Whole Dog Journal, Dr. Ronald Schultz reports in an article entitled, Vaccinations 101, by Lisa Rodier, "Research shows that less than 50 percent of puppies will respond at six weeks; 75 percent at nine weeks; 90 percent at 12 weeks; and by 14 to16 weeks, close to 100 percent will respond. "

    In an August 1, 2008 article in DVM360 entitled Vaccination: An Overview,http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com....jsp?id=568351 Dr. Melissa Kennedy states: Vaccination of the young begins at 6-8 weeks of age. Multiple boosters are given because maternal immunity interferes with vaccinal response. Because one doesn't know the level in each animal for each pathogen at each time point (and it is not feasible nor cost-effective to measure this), repeated boosters are given until the point when maternal immunity has likely decreased sufficiently to allow induction of immunity, usually at 16-18 weeks of age.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Okay.  So now I am totally confused.  I imagine there are as many opinions as there are posts.  What about those who dont understand all of this?  Took my Shih Tzu for her annual visit to the vet today.  She received her booster "Duramune" this morning.  She threw up when we got home and was very lethargic.  I figured it was due to the excitement.  Later on in the afternoon her face swelled up her eyes got red and her paws were hot to the touch.  I took her back in and they gave her a shot of Benedryl (?) and another shot to help with the allergic reaction.  She has had these shots in the past with no reaction. 

     I get so upset as I am trying to do what is best for my dog.  You put your faith in the vet and hope that they do what's best, but now I am not so sure.  My mother's toy poodle is due for her annual visit and the vet's office told her she is due for four vaccines at that time.  I told my mother NO WAY!  The poodle is only about 5 lbs.  I honestly dont think that her little body can withstand so much at once. 

     What is a person to do?  Vaccinate or not?  Vaccinate less often?  I dont want to subject my baby to any more chemicals than need be, but I do want her protected from diseases. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    mish1000
    Okay.  So now I am totally confused.  I imagine there are as many opinions as there are posts. 

    Medical opinion does differ, however, even most of the vet schools now are teaching vets NOT to vaccinate every year.  WE don't get vax'd every year ... The Rabies Challenge study is endeavoring to change it so rabies vax are no more than every 3 years (and hopefully longer than that).  But the other vaccines really don't need to be done every year.  Many of the things that are in the "combo" shot are things your dog may never even encounter. 

    The allergic reaction is usually to the adjuvant - that's the "carrier" part of the shot that carries the disease cells thru the body so the body can make antibodies to make "immunity". 

    Allergy can occur at any time -- a thing that has been "ok" in the past?  Can suddenly become an allergen. I never had food allergies EVER in my life and in the last 3 years I've developed alelrgies to basil, olive leaf and chipotle (all of which literally make me break out in hives).    It's simply that the body suddenly can't handle it.   

    You may want to have the dog titers fro distemper and parvo -- those are the two "biggies" for vaccinations (the two common dog diseases that are the bigges threat to un-vaccinated dogs).   Honestly?  The bigges threat is to puppies NOT adult dogs.  So getting the titer (which is a blood test) done to see if there is sufficient immunity can be a wise thing to do.

    Don't vaccinate for rabies more often than your *state* requires.  Find out -- is it yearly or every 3 years.  Don't have rabies done annually if your state says 3 years. 

     

    mish1000
    What about those who dont understand all of this? 

    Honestly, that's what many of us are trying to do.  Trying to answer questions and help people understand.  In this day and age, I don't care whether it's your dog or your own person, you just can't blindly take anything someone hands you.  You have to be educated -- what are the side effects of this? Why is this needed?  You may want to do some reading rather than just blindly following a vet. 

    Vets have to do continuing education as well -- and some of them have been very concerned that if they "give up" the angle of having people come for shots EVERY year, that people won't vet their dogs.

    EVERY dog should have a wellness exam every year.  (Mine go every 6 months.)  That doesn't mean they get shots -- that means they get a fecal, they get a general exam, and sometimes I have bloodwork done just to keep track of things as they age.   But not having vaccines shouldn't mean "WHOO HOOO I CAN BE CHEAP!!" and with most caring owners it doesn't.

    mish1000
    vet's office told her she is due for four vaccines at that time. 

    I would never **ever** give four vaccines at once.  That is just plain way too much.  Vets sometimes try to "do it all at once" because they think people won't pay for separate visits.  But never more than two at once and if it's some heavy vax like a set of 'core' vaccines (and two of my dogs showed "low" on their distemper/parvo titers and did have to have a core vax this year which is one shot as the combination of parvo/distemper/adenovirus but it will liekly be the last they'll ever need)

    mish1000
    What is a person to do?  Vaccinate or not?  Vaccinate less often?  I dont want to subject my baby to any more chemicals than need be, but I do want her protected from diseases.

    Sometiems you just plain have to say "no" .. you discuss it iwth the vet, and if the vet won't listen to you, then you find a different vet.  I take my dogs to both a holistic vet (who does TCVM - traditional Chinexse veteirnary medcine because they get acupuncture for arthritis and seizures)) and I have been to many vets in my area and I drive about half an hour away (and I live in a major metropolitan area) and drive straight past many other vets because I have developed a good relationship wtih another vet. 

    I have one -- Billy -- who is a survivor of Immune-Mediated Hemolytic Anemia -- it's an auto-immune disease and he nearly died.  Billy will NEVER have another vaccine in his life.  He literally can't have rabies etierh -- so we titer him on that (which is unusual) and my vet gets a waiver with the state  so I can license him because he titers so high. 

    It's a choice -- but it has to be an educated choice.  Hope that helps -- I know it's very difficult to decide what to do.  But honestly, being  informed is your best defense.