Neutering without removal of testes?

You don't have to address the question of accidental breedings, because I have never had one. I know how to shut a door and latch a crate. It's not rocket science.
 
I agree with Paula- being born male is not a disease. Dogs are animals. If people don't want animals in their homes, they shouldn't have one.
 
Pyo is a risk, and the reason I am not completely opposed to spaying bitches. However, it is not difficult to detect if one has any knowledge of her dog and of the cycles of her bitch. A bitch with pyo will consume large amounts of water, appear "off" in her behavior, and often have a raised temperature. She will reek with a stench of a bitch in season, but more foul. It is my belief that an owner should be educated on such matters before taking an animal into her home.
 
I do not oppose the routine altering of the retired Greyhounds I help place. I have owned altered dogs. However, I would not alter my own animals, and the "spay and neuter everything with a pulse" attitude is decidedly American. Please realize that we are the only country (except perhaps Canada) with such beliefs. Stop and ponder why there are virtually no unwanted or homeless dogs in Sweden, yet NO dogs are spayed or neutered there without medical reason.
 
I am against cropping and docking, firmly. However, at least the when the pain and risk of surgery passes, the dog's entire physiology is not altered. If people who cannot or will not put the small effort into maintaining intact dogs were not allowed to own them, perhaps we'd have a situation more like they do in Sweden.
 
We can ultimately only do what is right to us. I do feel a pang of pity for dogs castrated left and right for no reason other than American culture and owners' unwillingness to accept responsibility for their dogs' natural behavior. However, I know most, if not all here love their dogs dearly and do what they have been taught is right.

ORIGINAL: WindridgeGoldens

Pyo is a risk, and the reason I am not completely opposed to spaying bitches. However, it is not difficult to detect if one has any knowledge of her dog and of the cycles of her bitch. A bitch with pyo will consume large amounts of water, appear "off" in her behavior, and often have a raised temperature. She will reek with a stench of a bitch in season, but more foul. It is my belief that an owner should be educated on such matters before taking an animal into her home.

They should, but most owners don't know the risks of Pyo, false pregnancy, or GDV. Nobody taught them. We try our best to educate people when they come through the clinics, but there is only so much you can teach a person in 15-30 minutes, once a year.
I take responsibility for what I cannot teach, because teaching is part of my professional obligation. Therefore MY risk assessment will be much different than yours.

Its no different than having your tonsils or appendix removed. They serve no purpose... unless you're EMOTIONALLY attached."

 
Actually (this is very pertinent to this whole discussion, otherwise, I wouldn't say it[]) it's thought, by the alternative medical community that tonsils and appendixes play a large part in immune function. For that reason alone, I pay special attention to mine. I haven't had tonsils or an appendix in over 5 years. I've managed to evade most everything, this winter (I almost caught something last week, but I fasted and it went away).
 
IMO, body parts are there for a reason. That doesn't mean that I won't neuter future dogs, but it does mean that I'll be putting some serious thought into it.

I know how to shut a door and latch a crate.

 
I guess you don't have any dogs that like to play "Free Willy" then[] Emma opens crates. Of course, this is easily prevented by putting little carabriner-like clips from the dollar store on the crates.
 
I have to agree, though, that my incontinent, too tall three year old is probably more damaged by her super-early spay than by her docked tail. She doesn't really miss her tail much, but those hormone triggors could have helped some things.
 
I am all for spaying and neutering, in the hands of the general public. I really am. I can see both sides, though, and if it's possible, my future pets will be altered later in life. Eight weeks was entirely too young, for Emma, and I begged them to let me wait and do it at my own cost, but they wouldn't. Shelter policy. A year sounds like a better plan, to me.

I don't blame shelters in this country for their rules, but I am sorry to hear it has affected your dog. I know it definitely affects males badly to alter too young, too.
 
I personally think people should do their homework and educate themselves on things like pyo, but they don't. This isn't anyone here's fault- it's just a sad fact of life.

I am very interested in this conversation, as I am considering taking a second dog into our home from a rescue.  The pup being considered is 13 weeks old, and has already been neutered.  We waited a year to spay our first, to make sure she developed fully in the bitchiness department.  I have heard so many bad things about early neuter (incontinence, legginess, apathy, cowardice, obesity, reduced musculature, less beneficial territoriality/watchdog ability) that I am reluctant to consider taking this pup.  Could anyone point me in the direction of some good factual resources on this issue?

the majority of those are related more to poor socialization or individual dog temperaments. If you're looking for a guard dog, a rescue isn't a good place to start. Yes, some dogs get leggy, but it doesn't seem to have any long-term effects other than looks and possibly an increased risk of joint disease, which many breeds are already predisposed to anyway, so you should be prepared for this no matter when he was neutered. Obesity is due to overfeeding. Most owners do not take into account that neutering prematurely slows metabolism. Feeding appropriate meals for your dog will solve this problem. Musculature is also genetic and excercise related. If this is a major deciding factor for you, again, rescue is not a good place for you to acquire a dog.

Therefore, I see no real reason why the neuter status of a dog should be a major factor in your decision to adopt unless you have very specific needs.

ORIGINAL: WindridgeGoldens
 Neutering a dog because one cannot prevent him from mating otherwise always makes me shake my head. If one cannot control his dogs, he might reconsider owning animals.

You must have never seen what an intact male high on a female in heat can do.  We had a male GSD that could scale a 7ft fence in about a second.  I've got a male pharaoh hound that has a standing still vertical of over 4 feet and can be at top speed in 3 strides (33-35mph.)  He is intact and I can control him, however if he wasn't a show dog he'd be neutered in a heartbeat.

Unfortunately most owners have no idea what intact males are capable of when it comes to females in heat.  I do, having experienced it when my bitch went into season.  Two weeks of not eating, barking, obsessing, pushing himself to procreate.  And that was after the meds to calm him down. 

So I do recommend that the majority of american owners get their pets spayed/neutered.  Large breeds a bit later (12-18 months) and smaller breeds at anywhere from 6-12 months.  It's more responsible than having an "oops" litter.

You don't have to address the question of accidental breedings, because I have never had one. I know how to shut a door and latch a crate. It's not rocket science.

So you've never had a dog smart enough to open a door, or unlatch a crate or to even breed through an opening in a crate?

Almost every breeder I've ever known has had something like that happen.  Most of the stories started out just like your post..."Oh I thought I knew what I was doing..."

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

I don't really understand the attraction of an intact male animal-- the "male" behaviors are just unpleasant to have to deal with. Intact male horses are a total pain. Give em the old snip and few weeks later you have a nice horse who can focus, pay attention, and work with you. I've never owned an intact male dog, because the day they start showing signs of "testosterone poisoning" I get irritated by their behaviors and send them in for snipping. Preventing puppies is just a side-benefit.

I'm surprised to hear that mudpuppy.  I really am.  I have an intact male now and I'm guessing that he's fully "poisoned" by his testosterone now.  But somehow he doesn't mark inside, nor attack children, nor is he aggressive towards other males (he is aggressive towards other dogs, but only ones that have been aggressive towards him in the past.)  I think that if behavior modification is your goal, it could be just as easily reached with a bit more training and socialization.

3. If a prostatectomy was a simple surgery, I think it would happen all the time. Its no different than having your tonsils or appendix removed. They serve no purpose... unless you're EMOTIONALLY attached 

Whoa there....It's alot different than having tonsils or appendix removed.  Tonsils and appendix aid in production of white blood cells and are a big part of the immune system.  The testicles in a dog, hopefully, will only be used during a planned breeding.

ORIGINAL: Misskiwi67

the majority of those are related more to poor socialization or individual dog temperaments. If you're looking for a guard dog, a rescue isn't a good place to start. Yes, some dogs get leggy, but it doesn't seem to have any long-term effects other than looks and possibly an increased risk of joint disease, which many breeds are already predisposed to anyway, so you should be prepared for this no matter when he was neutered. Obesity is due to overfeeding. Most owners do not take into account that neutering prematurely slows metabolism. Feeding appropriate meals for your dog will solve this problem. Musculature is also genetic and excercise related. If this is a major deciding factor for you, again, rescue is not a good place for you to acquire a dog.

Therefore, I see no real reason why the neuter status of a dog should be a major factor in your decision to adopt unless you have very specific needs.

 
Thank you for taking the time to respond.  I see the logic in your general answer "don't get a dog from a shelter if you want anything specific from it," but, unfortunately, no one to my knowledge breeds on purpose the only kind of dog I care to own--staffordshire/lab mix.  You can, however, finds these mixes in rescues and shelters from time to time, when someone's staffie accidentally breeds or gets bred by the neighbor's lab.
Which leads me back to my original question.  What effects do early neutering have on a dog?  Are there any physical effects beside the legginess and shrunken genitalia?  Behaviorial effects besides those common to neutering at any age?  As there are no "do overs" in puppy adoption (from our perspective), I want to know what the possibilities are before I make this decision.   I would hate to end up with a sullen, cowardly, incontinent, thin-chested, leggy, fatty, dog, because I failed to research adequately.

I think you are just as likely to get a dog of  that description from an intact adoptee as you are from a neutered one. There ARE correlations with all those effects, but they're minor and still widely disputed. The only one I have personally witnessed is the legginess... and I actually find it cute...

Basically, I have no idea what your risk is, but in my personal opinion its slim at best, and without knowing the genetic background of your dog... there's no way of knowing what he "could have been" anyway.

Get the puppy you want, and be glad the shelters are taking precautions to prevent unwanted   future pregnancies from uneducated owners... they're only doing what they have to do. And as you've already stated... your choices are limited as they are...

It is obvious that this is a very hot topic and I imagine it would depend on who you ask as to the answer you would get when it comes to s/n.
 
Mostly, this topic has focused on dogs, but I would like to interject an opinion when it comes to cats. My experience, as it relates to neuter vs. vasectomies, is with "big cats" and "exotics". At the facility that I worked at (a rescue organization) we took in many felids that had been used for producing "babies" to sell. All were intact and some even came to us already bred, which meant we took in more than we expected. Since we were not in it for producing MORE exotic animals, we had to steralize.
We opted to vasectomize the males, as it is alot easier to perform this surgery in the field, than it would be a spay. Since we weren't going to spay the females, the males HAD to remain driven to "mate" in order to keep the females ovulating. If they were never stimulated to ovulate, there could have been some very sick female cats on our hands. Also, the teste's produce the necessary hormones that ensure that the males REMAIN male with in thier prides. If they had been removed, males would have lost their manes (in the case of the lions) and would have been killed by the females as they would have appeared "sick" or "weak". The tigers, while mostly solitary animals, were kept in very small groups, and again, the males would have appeared sick or weak to the females if they had been neutered.
There is also evidence that indicates higher risk for urinary tract problems (that can be life threatening) in neutered male cats.
 
I know that this is not realivent in terms of domestic pets, but it does prove that removing the gonads does produce an animal that is not equal to it's intact counterpart.
 
As far as JQP, I do believe that S/N is a viable alternative to accidental breedings, as well as, indiscriminate breeders creating poor quality examples of pure bred dogs for profit. However, I'm not a huge fan of early S/N for adolescent pets when in the hands of competent, knowledgable et guardians.

Kennel Keeper,

How interesting about wild cats and their behavior. It lends some credence to Elizabeth Marshall Thomas' observation in dogs that castrated males are treated differently by other dogs than intact males. 

Thank you .
Paula