DEMODEX

This is what I have learned about demodex from Callie.
 
Demodex is an immune system thing.  The mites are on the skin of all dogs, and humans too actually... but our immune system is able to handle them properly.  If your dog has a weak immune system it will allow the mites to aggravate the skin... get infected, ect. 
 
The immune system may very well be able to handle this even though it is weaker than normal, but when a "trigger" surpresses it, it overloads and cannot handle everything, therefor allows this to happen.
 
Vaccines take a toll on the immune system and could likely be the cause of the outbreak... anesthesia may be it also... maybe stress of all this... lots of things can cause this.
 
Ivermectin kills the mites on the dog but cannot get rid of them permanently as nothing can do that... they are there.  Mitaban is the same, just kills the mites on him today. 
 
Ivermectin and Mitaban are both hard on the system and likely make the problem worse in some dogs as thats why it was allowed to show up in the first place.  This will be a lifelong thing for him if you don't address the source of the problem, the immune system.
 
There are shampoos and oils you can use to safely open and cleanse the pores and reduce the amount of mites he has to deal with.  This in conjunction with suppliments such as vitamins and herbals can boost the immune system and get rid of this problem in a much better, safer way than using these harsh meds that do not give the dog what he really needs.
 
I wouldnt do the dip, and I wouldnt let your vet give him any more Ivermectin.  The most I would take from her is a Preventic collar, should have 1% Amitraz, this will reduce the mites around the face and neck in the mean time.... and I would send Callie a message so she can send you her info on how you can manage this and get your boys system stonger.
 
Good luck.  Oh, and welcome!
 

loveukaykay, thanks for replying!
I have researched demodex for weeks and weeks and am now starting to go mad with worry.
Callie has been emailed, (did that quick!)
I did wonder actually if the stress of his jabs and surgery could have brought it on.
He has had no health problems other than this.

Yup. Stress is a MAJOR factor in demodex. Around here, we see breakouts 3-4 weeks after a big stress. 

Any suggestions as to what to do now that nothing seems to be working? What sort of timescale are we looking at to see some, any ,even teeny  minor imporovement?
What else can I do about the pustules around his lips and under his chin?
Instead of using the Mitaban dip initially, I was using Neem Oil on the dry bald bits, but even after a month nearly I see no difference, in fact the whole thing seems to be getting worse.
He is getting omega-3 capsules daily, and is fed a premium dry dog food with supplements already added, so I'm not sure if it is beneficial to give him more.
 
Forgot to mention that he was going to be used as a stud dog in about 6 months, I expect that will be out of the question now[:@]

Hi -- dragona I didn't get your email --
 
The stuff you need to bathe the dog in is benzoyl peroxide and I'm NOT sure if it's available in Ireland.  I know it didn't used to be -- I corresponded with a gal several years ago who had a basset with demodex.  At the time I decided to 'barter' a bit and I mailed her Fostex soap (a human 'soap' with benzoyl peroxide in it)  and she sent me Bisto and such silliness (my husband is a Scot -- for me to get a container of Bisto thru a vendor at one of the Highland Games costs me the equivalent of about 3 pounds Sterling!!!!  Have I sent you into shock yet??? *smile*).
 
Call a chemist tomorrow and ask.  Or your vet -- he may be able to get the benzoyl peroxide dog shampoos, but again I don't know if they are distributed there. 
 
The tea tree oil is VERY important -- that helps ward off staph skin infection (which is about the next step) and it also seems to help repel the mites better, and with less toxicity than anything else.  You'll put that in the bathing rinse water. 
 
A note -- the baths MUST be in **warm** water, not cool.  Benzoyl peroxide as a chemical opens the skin pores so they can be flushed out (carrying mites down the drain) but the warm water part if absolutely essential.
 
Ivermectin is often used but it causes a pseudo immune boost which is more what helps than anything.  Weekly injections don't get it 'to' the mites because demodex mites eat skin oil -- they don't touch the blood stream.  So what happens is the immune system rebounds a bit so I'm not suprised he's worsened.
 
Has he been altered?  That's the FIRST thing that must happen.  No, he can't be used as a stud because demodex is genetic.  But additionally that IS what's causing this to worsen so badly.  The sexual maturation is what is prodding the body and depleting the immune system. 
 
It's actually cruel to leave them intact - simply because even after the puppy period passes (and an intact dog is going to be far far far more prone to serious bouts of demodex even if it did somehow 'resolve') simply scenting a bitch in heat can trigger demodex to worsen.  I've seen it happen MANY times.
 
The "trick" to this, aside from the benzoyl peroxide baths with the tea tree oil rinses (which will be in the article I send you if you can give me your email address - PM it to me if that will get it to me easier -- I still haven't got your email) is to boost the immune system.
 
Vitamins, supplements -- these help on a cellular level to help the body 'become' more than it would ordinarily.
 
Herbals -- these, far more than anything pharmaceutical -- actually help to spark the immune system to begin to respond **as it should**.  It's in the article I shall send you.
 
I will surely help you all I can.  My husband's mother was from Donnegal (and he has family there yet).  Both of his folks are buried there and he was just there last fall to put his Dad at rest with his Mum. 
 
The good thing is that between David and I we may be able to help 'translate' some of this enough so that you can be more successful in finding what you need there. 
 
The other thing I'm going to mention is you mentioned 'ear tips' -- this begins to sound to me like there could be something *else* going on.  Like ringworm (which is a fungus).  It also attacks dogs with low immune systems but I suspect you're dealing with more than one thing here.  That OFTEN happens and complicates everything.

calliecritturs - thanks for reply. Have emailed you again and pmd you!
 
I didnt use tea tree but neem oil, which I have used for skin problems before(not Vito)
I get into the shower with him and yes I use warm water and Head and Shoulders (anti dandruff)shampoo, diluted with water and more neem oil.I always rinse very thouroughly.
I don't think there is ringworm - the patches just at the tips of his ear are grey and dry, with the flaky skin.

Callie was very helpful to me with this, the article is a lot of info, and I had a lot of questions, she was very patient with me and helped me through.
 
If your thinking more suppliments wouldnt help... they would.  Bailey is now getting a ton of stuff.  I divide this between two feedings but heres her totals.
 
Vit A - 20,000IU per day
Vit C- 500IU per day
Vit E - 800IU per day
Colostrum - 2,000IU per day
Echinacea - 1,200 mg per day
 
I have ordered the Flax Oil of which she will get 2 teaspoons per day. 
 
I have not yet gotten then Zinc of which she will get 15 mg per day for two weeks only.
 
Fish oil is also good, I give a pump of 3V Caps liquid and add sardines to her food... sometimes Mackeral.
 
I have ordered the shampoo online since NO one sells it here[&:].
 
So, theres a lot more that you can do to boost the system than you would think, lol... I thought this sounded like so much stuff, but its not going to hurt her in fact make her much much more healthy and immune sufficient.  I just put it all in her food and she doesnt even notice.
 
Oh, Callie - I have another question.  It says 10,000IU vitamin A 2x daily UNTIL demodex is under control... 
 
Bailey has nothing left visible except the lack of hair in the small spots where it was, but thats growing back quickly.  How much to give now???
 
 

Ringworm would show exactly that way -- flaky dry patches on the tips of the ears!  It's more the placement that's a give-away there.  Rarely do you see 'rings' on ringworm on dog skin.  Usually doesn't show as a ring at all.  But it would be very unusual to see demodex on the ear tips!  Demodex mites eat skin oil -- and the ear TIPS usually are dry not oily.
 
(Now you understand why my husband calls me the "Mange Queen") - my head is full of trivia like that!
 
and about the Vit A -- always give A and E together -- and keep those going on for 3 months or so -- and the, don't elminate them -- but drop the amounts down to half those amounts.  But I would always supplement Bailey with A and E and C.

Thanks for replying...
I am now at my wits end. He looks so awful, and I just know he is not feeling ok - all of a sudden he is not really keen for breakfast and dinner. He seems happy enough though - loving and wanting to be with me 24/7. God I love him so so much but any way...... though definitely more lethargic
He is having daily:
Pro Plan Lamb and Rice (not keen to eat )
Omega 3 (fish oils)(130mg x 2)
Vitamin E800iu
Vitamin C 800mg
Zinc400mg
Neem oil rubbed into his bald bits
He has been sponged with the Mitaban (called Taktic here) twice in the last two weeks- as I say I was reluctant to use it

I really am at a loss

Calliecritturs, I have pmd you again, thanks for the email!

dragona - I have pmed you.
 
Thanks Callie about the vitmains and Bailey sends you kissys... hope you guys are okay.

loveukaykay - thanks!
Just tell me,what treatments did you try to get rid of the demodex before embarking on the vitamins etc? And how badly was Bailey affected - timescale before seeing any sort of improvement??
I am concerned at the lack of appetite Vito is showing - he is eating, but not enthusiastically, and certainly not the full amount, he leaves some, maybe a quarter of the amount each time. Before all of this he would actively ask me for breakfast and dinner, now I have to coax him somewhat.Not normal, especially for a Labrador.

I didnt try any treatment before the vitamins.  The vitamins could very well be the most important part of the treatment because its the part that will boost the immune system, making it less likely for this to happen in the future.
 
I saw improvement in Bailey almost immediately but I caught it very early.
 
Depending on how badly it has spread over Vitos body may have to do with why hes not eating...?? Is he very itching and uncomfortable?  I would give him Benadryl in the mean time to help out with the skin irritation he may be feeling.
 
I also think you should get him onto the suppliments as soon as you can and keep up with it.  Some only stay in the body for a ceratin amount of time and you want them to be in his body continuously.     
 
*His vit E seems good
*C seems good to me... you could try to up that a little bit but not too much at a time or he may gey diahrrea (sp) but if you can get him up to 2000mg per day that would be ideal... and make sure you give it in two separate doses like 400mg am and 400mg pm so that he will have a continuous supply in his body.
*I think the Zinc is too much... it should be 15mg/day... and thats only for 2 weeks then stop.  So if hes been getting the Zinc for a while I would give him a break on that totally.
*Im not sure what Neem oil is, but if you can get your hands on some OxyDex cream that would be better to rub on his spots.  Or if not, put some tea tree oil in a squirt bottle with water and you can spray some of that onto the red spots and it will help sooth them.
*Dont use the Mitaban anymore... hopefully all this will cut out any need to even consider it.
* Start giving him 10,000 mg of vitamin A 2x daily (20,000mg total)
* Start giving him Echinacea also, 3 400mg pills 2x a day for one month then stop
* Also give him Colostrum - 2,000mg per day
* Flax seed oil is also important but make sre its just plain old ground up flax seed.  Solid Gold makes some that you can get online.  This you will give 2 teaspoons per day.
 
I know this sounds like a lot, but your boy has some serious skin issues that are stemming from an immune deficency and by using these suppliments you can help his skin trememdously along with building his immune system so this will not be a lifelong problem.
 
I would also get him on some digestive enzymes to ensure he absorbes his food and suppliments as much as possible. 
 
Also, Pro Plan may not be the best food for him.  Do you have any other food around you can choose from that may have higher quality human grade ingredients...?  
 
Did Callie send you her article?  I have it if you need it.
 
Along with the suppliments you need to start bathing him every other day or so with the shampoo and tea tree oil soak.
 
Benzoyl peroxide shampoo is what you want... lather it up and rub around for 10 minutes and rinse well.  The scoop the tea tree oil and water mixture (neem oil may be the same I dont know) over him and let that sit, if you do rinse that off just barely rinse as you want it to stay on his skin.

And as Callie stated, you should really get him neutered because its likely the one most powerful thing causing him these issues.
 
Also, it IS treatable and managable.  Bailey looks great and I know others here have dealt with this and had great success, once we learn about it its a lot easier

Oh my gosh -- 40 is WAY too high.  That's probably what's making him sick to his stomach.  Zinc is a mineral -- it doesn't wash out of the body so too much will cause a toxic reaction.  I would just plain STOP the zinc entirely.  He's had enough likely.
 
800 i.u. of E is too much -- reduce that to 400 but then ADD Vit A.  You always must pair E and A because they will leach the other out of the body if you don't keep them together.
 
Make sure the omega 3's are JUST omega 3's and not just plain fish oil.  Some fish oil is omega 3 and some is omega 6 -- totally different.  You want fish *body* oil (like mackerel or sardines) not fish liver oil (like cod liver oil is mostly Vit A). 
 
About 8000 units of A with bout 400 of E.
 
Neem oil is strong stuff but often doesn't work.  I never found it helpful.  The daily bathing with the benzoyl peroxide shampoo washes away the mites (it's that specific action of the benzoyl peroxide that 'opens the pores' and if you are in the UK you'll have to ask your chemist what chemical is used there -- likely something in teenager's acne preparations). 
 
Taktic is the farm strength of mitaban -- it's sold here and in Australia as well.  But it only kills the mites on the body today -- AND it can kill them IN the pores which makes them decay there and cause more infection. 
 
He's likely just plain sick from the skin infection.  If the skin is red/weepy and infected he's probably going to need antibiotics to get rid of the infection (infected skin won't heal).  You do the vitamins/supplements, herbals  and bathing all at the same time -- the herbals jump start the immune system (much like hooking a car battery up to jumper cables to get it 'started').  They help the body get back into the 'habit' of responding immune wise without turning the immune system off. 
 
The vitamins/supplements actually change things on a cellular level to make the body 'better' than it would be -- that's where deep changes are made to the health of the body.
 
The bathing simply helps the body cope today -- but more safely without all the toxins.
 
But frankly the biggest thing is to neuter him NOW.  I can't emphasize how important that is.  If you explain it to your vet (query him -- don't just "boss him around") this way it will make sense.
 
The body continues to develop constantly -- sexual maturation is a huge stressor to the body and makes a lot of demands stress-wise -- that continues to increase and increase until the testicles drop at about 6-8 months and testosterone is raging thru the body.  No 'control' just pure teenaged "hormones".  The body is using 100% of its reserves at that point just to exist with teething, growing, and the adolescent muscle-flexing behavior-wise -- all these things sap the immune system.
 
Neutering halts a great deal of that full stop.  It helps the body then re-group and settle and it slows things down a bit.  It's just plain stressful to be a pup, but adding all the emotional trauma that goes iwth sexual maturation (both male and female) that's why males and females always worsen SO badly with demodex just prior to sexual maturation.
 
But you aren't just halting it by a permanent method for something 'temporary'.  Because both males and females suffer a great deal if left intact with demodex.  A female will break out worse and worse every time she cycles.  A male will break out (often worse and worse) from the excitement of being near a female in heat. 
 
The demodex is a genetic problem and you must never breed them anyway -- and simply altering them helps them life-long to cope better with this and keep the body more stable. 
 
You'll always need to treat the immune system carefully -- avoid annual vaccines, feed a good diet and avoid foods preserved with carcinogens.  I realize in the UK that altering is not the 'done thing' normally -- but the benefits are great in a demodex dog.