Dog Community

A caution for what it's worth from my vet

Posted : 11/18/2006 5:54:06 PM

Just for whatever it's worth, I'm gonna pass on this caution from my holistic vet. I don't hang around this topic much, but I don't see that it's redundant. I'm not trying to be accusatory but I thot, for whatever it's worth, it might be advantageous to know about.

My holistic vet is a former groomer -- so she's always looking at the coat not just from a "healthy shine, etc." standpoint but she's looking at the cut too. But when I brought Billy in last week, one of the side effects he's had from all the long term steroids is some skin issues (Billy has IMHA and is gettng off them gradually -- they saved his life but man, the side effects *whew*).

Now yes, they put dogs with skin problems ON steroids .... but after a while it has the reverse effect and because is so immune-suppressed (IMHA again) the coat on his spine is breaking some and I'm having to chase away topical infection all the time.

I mentioned he was actually headed for the groomer next weekend just to generally straighten up his coat (he's an English cocker) and she asked me if I'd heard about the big study done about skin infections and grooming? I said no.

Apparently in many salons it's typical to water down the shampoo a great deal. It's more economical and you don't get a glop of shampoo on that's hard to rinse.

HOWEVER -- apparently there's this huge increase in grooming related skin infections. According to Dr. DiNatale some shampoos have so many organic ingredients that there is actually bacteria present IN the shampoo. And, because we've got this super crop of bacteria out there anyway that are more and more resistant to more and more antibitoics they are seeing this huge rise in really mega nasty skin infections (like pseudomonas and other hard-to-kill bacteria/skin infection).

She warned me to warn Billy's/my favorite groomer, particularly because he's so immune-suppressed anyway, to be ultra careful to sterilize the blades before and after use, and NOT to thin the shampoo before use. Apparently there's this whole process that occurrs -- the particles of hair that stick to the blades but then shed onto the skin during the 'cut' process, then they aren't removed sufficiently by the shampoo, and the newly introduced bacteria then causes mega problems.

Apparently the incidence of dogs getting bad infections AFTER grooming is skyrocketing, and she actually had one walk into her practice just this past week. She said "I had just gotten done reading about this in my vet journal and I thot it was kinda weird and improbable and then blammmm ... in walks one right into my practice the very next week. The dog's skin was full of pseudomonas and it had started just a couple of days after grooming.

Now I know *my* dog is severely immune suppressed and that's not normal, BUT I also know how huge the allergy threads and skin infection threads tend to be, so I just figured I'd pass it on. I don't have a copy of the study to post - wish I did.

Lynn

Posted : 11/18/2006 6:21:42 PM

Wow,

That is really good to know - just to be aware of things. I'm wondering if they add in water to those big bottles / or dilute into smaller one and if extra bacteria in the water cause the problem because it is then just sitting around.

So, I wonder if they diluted just his portion, "on the spot" if that would be alright since it doesn't sit around being extra contaminated?

BTW, I would think that you would skip the professional grooming this time around and just do the best you can. With all things considered, I would rather have him being "un" professionally grommed rather than take a chance at this stage of the game?

edited:

Ohh, I just remembered a case where a lot of infants in a hospital were dying. Turns out the nurses had bought a Big container of hand lotion, and was used by the group, and the bacteria was in the hand lotion and the infants didn't have the immune system to handle it yet.

calliecritturs

Posted : 11/18/2006 7:44:08 PM

I've already talked to her about it and it's not a problem. She's super aware of Billy's immune problems and that's why she's taking him to her home. I need to be able to get closer to the skin to clean him -- so it's a medical necessity at this point.

But I think your question is germaine -- so many shampoos have things like oatmeal and stuff in it that are organic and may be prone to being susceptible to bacteria. I think it may also have to do with the bacteria growing in the shampoo before it's put on the skin (not just thinning it down on the spot).

Scarey tho, huh? Billy wound up with pseudomonas in that last urinary tract infection -- just because so many bacteria are resistant to antibiotics all it's tough to treat.

kennel_keeper

Posted : 11/18/2006 9:01:02 PM

Callie, with all due respect to your holistic vet, the shampoo's that the manufacturers make these days are super concentrated. They have to be diluted in order to not adversly affect the skin. Some are a 64:1 ratio. Can you imagine what that would do to your dogs skin if it was not diluted prior to use?
However, I do somewhat agree with what she said. With the price of these professional shampoo's, it would be tempting for groomers to dilute them MORE than the recommended ratio to hold cost down. Not to mention, it's easier (and quicker) to rinse all of the shampoo out of the coat (especially in heavy coated breeds). As a professional, I can't use natural treatments (ie: ACV rinses) after baths, but I do it with my own dogs. It seems to get all the residue off the coat and helps to eliminate surface bacteria and yeast that may be present. We do, however, use it to clean the ears (even though it is off-label) because it works so well without the added alcohol that tends to "burn" the ears. We just wipe the ear out with it, not squirt it into the ear like alot of the professional products instruct.
I'd be curious to know how your vet feels about a final rinse with ACV would work to help prevent skin problems after grooming.

willowchow

Posted : 11/18/2006 9:26:53 PM

kennel--Are they diluting it down so much that they aren't getting the dog clean? I'm reading all this with interest as I've got a heavy coated dog who I pay a lot to get groomed (not that I mind but I do want her to actually get clean). Maybe I should bring in my own shampoo??

Cally01

Posted : 11/18/2006 9:36:29 PM

kennel_keeper, I was thinking the same thing...the shampoo's are super concentrated. We actually had a problem with a shampoo from I think it was biogroom....when not diluted enough it was hard to rinse out...which in turn by not getting all the shampoo out can cause skin problems and break outs..or dandruff.   We had to dilute it a bit more than the directions indicated. If you tried to use that shampoo full strenth it would have taken a month to get it out of a Newf coat.

What we noticed, some groomers do not get all the shampoo out during the rinse which can cause a skin reaction. I proved this to be correct when I first started working at the kennel and bathed my bosses Newf that was going to a show. I thought my boss had left out the shampoo ready to use ...the shampoo was not diluted, it took me a while to get the shampoo out...I guess I didn't get it all out and poor Wally broke out that night, didn't make the show and was in a terrible way skin wise. My Sister had to book him into her shop and rebathe with properly diluted shampoo. His skin slowly started to clear up.  His break out was definately related to not diluting the shampoo properly there fore not getting it all rinsed out.

My Sister keeps all her equipment clean, and when she has to shave off a dog she takes the h/v afterward and blows out the loose little hairs which works wonders.  The dogs that do have skin problems have improved on an allergy diet and supplements.

calliecritturs, thank you for your post. I will run this by my Sister who has been grooming for over 21 years. She will find it interesting...I'll also ask my holistic vet if he has heard anything about this study. He keeps on top of everythign and just got back from a homeopathic seminar in California.  I'll get his opinion. It's always good to hear new ideas etc.

Our Newf Cassie used to have terrible allergies. She gets a full bath once every 2 weeks and a partial once a week. She has a beautiful coat and has had not had any problems since we started feeding her a better food. She comes from a line of Newf's with surpressed immune systems and all her line & siblings died early due to immune shut down. She is the longest lived dog in her line and her skin/coat looks terrific. We use the organic dog shampoos and we have to dilute them to the specifics on the bottle...leave any shampoo in the coat and you will end up with skin problems.

My Sister said you never heard of many dogs having allergies and skin problems when she started out grooming like they do today...pollution, additives, bad breeding/genetics...who knows...I certainly don't...just thought I'd throw it out there.[

] She has seen a drastic change in the health over all in dogs since she started grooming. I don't know if that is because they were not using organic shampoos back in the days of old and instead used stuff like dish detergent or cheap human shampoo...who knows. I'll have to ask her what they used to use years and years ago.

Just to add, there are some dog shampoo's that are not to be diluted at all...I wonder if these are the ones your holistic vet is thinking of? we have an oatmeal shampoo that we don't dilute. The shampoos that require being diluted we dilute to the specifics on the bottle.

jennie_c_d

Posted : 11/18/2006 11:54:37 PM

They have to be diluted in order to not adversly affect the skin. Some are a 64:1 ratio. Can you imagine what that would do to your dogs skin if it was not diluted prior to use?

I was going to say that, too. If we didn't dilute our 30:1 shampoo, it would be an issue. Not diluting the 18:1 Dr Bronner's, at home, causes problems.

I do sanitize blades, between dogs, though. I also sanitize combs, brushes, nail clippers, the table, and wash my hands. I understand, because MY dog has so many issues.

willowchow

Posted : 11/19/2006 2:04:50 AM

But, does it all get diluted the same and used for every dog? It would seem that a dog like mine would need a higher concentration than a short furred dog, no??

kennel_keeper

Posted : 11/19/2006 6:20:58 AM

Lori,

We use different shampoo's for different situations and dogs. Each shampoo has it's own dilution rate and we mix them daily (sometimes several times a day) in bottles that have the dilution lines on them so they are mixed properly.

For a dog like Willow, we would use the proper shampoo (for her coat, condition) at it's designated dilution and we would wash her as least 2 times (more it needed to throughly clean her). Heavy coated breeds almost always require 2 shampoo's, while short coated breeds can get away with one in most cases. You could always ask your groomer what shampoo they use and how many times they wash her. I feel most professional groomers are using the appropriate shampoo's, but if it made a client feel better, I would use a shampoo they bring. Another way to tell (without asking) if she is getting properly cleaned is to, smell her. Take a couple of deep sniffs of her coat. Does she smell clean? Then a couple of days after grooming, do it again. Most dogs will still smell clean a couple of days later.

willowchow

Posted : 11/19/2006 11:02:27 AM

kennel-Thank you. I remember him telling me at one point that they do wash her twice. I had forgotten that until you brought it up here.

She does smell nice and clean when she gets home. But, they also spray her with cologne or spray a bandana with cologne. She's definately got more than one scent on when she leaves there.

Funny--They told me Willow licks and licks any part of them that she can reach while they give her a bath. [sm=smile.gif]

jones

Posted : 11/19/2006 11:20:58 AM

This is interesting, definitely food for thought. Several months ago right after we brought Russell in for grooming, he developed a weird bump on his ear that grew from a pimple into a big nasty red gross thing (the vet couldn't diagnose but gave us antifungal/antibac cream and it went away eventually). It appeared right after a groom on the part of his ear that they clip short. Could be unrelated but maybe not.

calliecritturs

Posted : 11/19/2006 11:47:47 AM

Like every other profession there are good and bad salons. I'm sure that's at the crux of most of the problems. And yeah, dog skin problems are soooooo common any more. Like I said I wasn't putting this out there for any particular "shame on you" but only for general awareness.

I hunted a LONG time before I found our current groomer -- and the salon was sold months ago and I told this gal then "If you EVER leave keep my number" and I handed it to her a second time -- I didn't want her to be accused of taking away clients, and this shop was well aware I was fussy as heck (imagine that .. ME?? Fussy??? *grin*).

But after reading all of the above, it makes me even MORE glad that I always take in my own shampoo, and the lavender/tea tree oil I want put in his final rinse water. Billy has ALWAYS had skin issues (I'm convinced that and the ears were what got him ditched from his first home) and when I had him groomed I just brought what the vet wanted used at the time. I'm also asthmatic and I can't have HIM smelling of cologne and I guess taking something 'acceptable to me' for the rinse not only accomplished getting whatever on the skin the vet had suggested to reduce infection/whatever also let the groomer the way to have the dog exit the salon "smelling nice". Shoot --I didn't realize I was doing qutie such a 'good thing'.

I would have thot sanitizing blades would be standard operating procedure?

In any event, when I can get hold of her Monday I'll see if I can find that article for you folks. But it all goes along with the huge insurgence of skin problems in dogs, and somehow I figured that had to trickle down and affect professional groomers as well (and of course, even if the dog's immune system is bottomed out, if the dog gets an infection 2 days after grooming, it's gonna be the groomer who gets the grief).

So now I gotta ask a dumb question -- when dog shampoos have to be diluted THAT much -- how is it done typically? Would plain tap water be used or sealed bottled water? How far in advance would that shampoo BE mixed up? Would the bottles be cleaned between use or would new shampoo just be poured in?

I guess the big shock to me in all this was her assertion that there was bacteria IN the shampoo (probably in the diluted shampoo but I'm going to try to find that out). One would THINK shampoo itself wouldn't harbor bacteria, but upon thinking about how resistant some bacteria IS, I thot maybe it was plausible.

I know when I mix up the Dr. Bronner's I'm not doing it far in advance -- I would simply add a couple of drops to whatever I was going to use to wash with at that moment. (I know Jennie and I both use Dr. B's but in case it's Greek to anyone else I'll post the link -- and trust me ... a weirder label you will never see in your life, but it's a darned good soap) [linkhttp://www.drbronner.com/drb_index.html]http://www.drbronner.com/drb_index.html[/link] -- and available at most any health store as well as online.

thedoc617

Posted : 11/19/2006 12:20:24 PM

We dilute it using a bottle like this:
(the one on the bottom right).

It has hash marks on how it should be diluted. For example, we use Tomlyn products in our shop, and the Pro-35 tearless shampoo is diluted 35-1. (which means we only put about a tablespoon of shampoo to the entire bottle of water- we use the same water that we bathe them with.)

Each shampoo have their own bottle, and they're filled up first thing in the morning, as well as whenever we get low (like we usually do on a very busy saturday).

We scrub the bottles out with a dilution of cleaner about once a week. (the cleaner is very diluted, and we soak the bottles in water before we put the shampoo back in). We scrub them with a baby bottle brush.

The shampoos have expiration dates, and are covered when we are not using them (for obvious reasons such as to not get glops of hair in it!)

I'd be interested in that article, Callie. Definitely something to think about.

kennel_keeper

Posted : 11/19/2006 1:08:01 PM

I would have thot sanitizing blades would be standard operating procedure?

Callie, as far as sanitizing blades, we do that between each client AND use a clipper blade spray that is also a bacterialcide during clipping. It is effective at killing bacteria and fungus.For instance, while your working on one dog, you can run into a spot where there may be bacteria (the hiney area, lol) and you could (in essence) spread that bacteria to other areas of the body. This spray helps to lessen the chances of that happening.

calliecritturs

Posted : 11/19/2006 4:55:51 PM

See how much I'm learning here!! I have only had two dogs who had to be groomed -- Billy (English cocker spanYELL ... er spaniel) and Muffin the Intrepid who was also an e.c.s. (and no ... you did NOT capitalize the last 4 letters ... he was .... ahem ... FAR more reserved than that, if you please!).

Kee is a peke , and probably wouldn't have to be groomed but her coat is also FAR more thick and healthy now than when she came to me and it's easier for me to have her groomed occasionally.