Marlin saw the vet today. :( Spinning.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Marlin saw the vet today. :( Spinning.

     I put the visit off, as I couldn't find any solutions offered on line, and been through this once before with a family dog, nothing was available then either.

    Marlin spins.  He turns to the left, over and over and over, non stop.  This morning, he'd been going almost 3 hours by the time our appointment came up (made that yesterday).  

    Vet said she's seen this before, mostly w/ small dogs, mostly w/ poodles.  In 17 years, she never saw anyone so dedicated to his spinning as Marlin is.  (He went non stop for half an hour in the exam room while we talked, after she examined him)

    It is either a symptom of the dementia, or it is a brain tumor.  No treatment for either, unfortunately, so she did not recommend spending the money for an MRI to see if it is a tumor.   She could suggest some dementia meds she used in UK, not approved here but I could get them online via a Canadian pharmacy.  Also she is going to look in to an OCD med.  He is COMPELLED to spin, he will be lying down and give a little cry and hop up to spin:  "I can't just lie here, I have to SPIN!"  So I'd asked about an OCD med.  She is going to research that.  Either way it will be experimental, not an obvious fix.

    She noted he does keep track of where I am as he spins - she had me move around the room to 3 different spots and stop.  She said he is in no pain and really not aware of what he is doing.  When he searches me out, you can see his eyes focus (I'd noticed this in the back yard, already).  

    This came on gradually over 5 weeks, first he'd spin a bit then be alright for several hours.  Now, he either eats, sleeps or spins.  He sometimes gets up in the night to spin.  Exhausting to watch him!

    He is unsteady on his feet and may get himself dizzy; after a time, he will tip and his rear end goes down.  This only keeps him for seconds and he struggles to get up and resumes his spinning.  The other problem we have is, in him getting up, he waves his legs about a bit.  That sets Willy off, he rushes in for the kill - a bite to the neck.  This started with Willy last summer, so I've been on watch for it.  Willy has not actually bitten Marlin since last August.  I have to keep a water bottle handy.  And to help Marlin up, or hold him and cuddle him, I have to either put Willy outdoors, or one of them in the bedroom with the door closed.  I discussed this with the vet as well. She has seen Willy go for Marlin, last year at one vet visit when I lifted Marlin off the exam table to put him on the floor.  Marlin has never been one to stretch his legs down to meet the floor, no, instead he always has waved them around.  I knew it would happen, and had the vet tech holding Willy's leash.  It is a primal instinct, to put a pack member out if having a seizure, or if seriously injured, and so on.  

    Anyway, so she suggested I not leave the 2 of them with access to one another anymore when I have to go out.    I need to start separating them before I leave the house.  As there is no telling what Marlin will do, when, no clear prognosis as to what comes next in this decline.

    Dad is not able to manage any of the dogs any longer, so it doesn't matter if I leave and he is home, that is the same as me not being here.

    Marlin could stay this way for some months, or could get worse at any time.  He eats fine, he is still Starvin' Marlin.  

    Oh, and I've been walking Marlin a few times a week.  Slow to start, and slow moving but he is steady.  She suggested I stop walking him; neighbors have commented to me that the dog does not want to walk.  Unfortunately, she said someone could call Animal Control, and I'd have another big mess to cope with.  I will perhaps take him up to the farm a few times, as he loves to potter about at the entrance where all the dogs leave their p-mail.  In a way I'm glad about this, it was hard to poke along and go 1/4 mile in 45 minutes.  On the other hand, I enjoyed seeing him find a smell and sniff, sniff, sniff!  I do understand exactly what she is saying.

    So, that is the update for Marlin.  Sad, to watch him age like this.

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    • Gold Top Dog

    She has no thot that it's a seizure?  Not a grand mal -- but a continuous petit mal?

    It sounds seizury to me -- and again, this is where I go to TCVM **FIRST**.  TCVM is beyond awesome for seizure-related stuff.  Bottom line -- it's electrical in the brain -- a short-circuit of sorts., and they often chain (so I do this "thing" forever and ever).

    When we first got Kee Shu she did 'fly-catching" -- CONSTANTLY -- it was actually a very complicated behavior -- she'd crane her neck left as if to look behind her -- crane, crane, crane, crane (four times) then lick, lick lick, lick (about 15 seconds) then she'd crane her neck to the right down and back repeat, repeat, repeat (usually again four times). -- repeat from the beginning.

    over and over and OVER incessantly.    Definitely stress induced --

    My holistic vet treated it as seizure activity -- in a series of small breakthtroughs, let me just say that in 3 months she was quite a nice little ditz -- sweet but rather empty-headed.

    About a year later, we had a breakthrough of sorts -- she actually wound up having a major seizure outside -- came in and literally collapsed.  We changed her herbs a bit and added one in particular.  Two months later WOW -- I had a REAL DOG!!!

    Suddenly she had personality, she was responsive.  When she looked AT you there was a real personality in that dog!!

    she never did progress to the point of having to put her on ANY pharmaceutical at all for the seizures.  She stayed on those herbs for four years.  Wow -- she was a cool little lady and under all that seizury junk?  Was a pet therapy dog who was THE most bomb-proof we have ever had.

    A PEKE!!  and her favorite?  BABIES!!!  Who on earth would have thot!!

    I mean bichons are friendly -- it's part of their thing.  But not pekes usually.

    Now different store but similar with Tink --

    http://www.tcvm.com -- it would cost you an exam.  DON'T make an appt until you talk to me tho, ok?  YOu need to know how they operate and you need to TELL them what his deal is.

    Does a relaxant do anything???  Have you tried even something like Calms Forte plus maybe valerian root?  Just to see if you can get thru to his brain???

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     His ears look fine, his eyes are fine.  The vet checked both.  My other dog Sugar has had 2 vestibular episodes in the past 6 months. Her eyes jumped, her head was on tilt, and she was nauseous and hence drooling.   It is not that.


     

     

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     Seizure, hmm.  I can put the leash on and walk him, he goes straight.  And he is perfectly Starvin' Marlin at meal times, lol, an old dog yes, but focused on the food bowl, follows me straight from the kitchen to his feeding station.  So I don't think that fits a constant small seizure state.

    I haven't tried a relaxant; can pick up some Calms Forte and valerian tomorrow.

     I'm thinking, because he always spins left, it wouldn't be the same as a seizure?  I don't know much about those, of any type.  He can and does focus when I touch him, so he comes out of this 'altered state' pretty easily and quickly.  I don't know if that fits what you are describing though.

    The only thing I could find online about it talked about adding more water / fluids to the mix, as the kidneys aren't working right.  Something about too much heart fire and not enough cool in the kidneys.  Since reading that, I make sure to give him half and half, dry kibble and canned food.  He is always better after eating, but that could just be the normal cycle, eat, sleep while you digest, then get up and move again.

    http://pathwithpaws.com/blog/2010/02/01/dementia-and-anxiety-in-your-older-dog-what-to-do/

     

     

     

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     There's a lot of stuff on that link I haven't done.  I remember now, the vet even suggested a thunder shirt or tight t shirt.  I have something for him in the dog clothes closet (yes, with 5 dogs, they have their own) I need to get something out and give that a try.  And reread that link page to try some other stuff.

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    Freedom
     Seizure, hmm.  I can put the leash on and walk him, he goes straight.  And he is perfectly Starvin' Marlin at meal times, lol, an old dog yes, but focused on the food bowl, follows me straight from the kitchen to his feeding station.  So I don't think that fits a constant small seizure state.

    That's part of what defines different kinds of seizures -- You could get Kee out of hers as well -- just engage her with direct one on one stimulation.  But the second she was on her own again -- lick lick lick.

    and right/left -- that wouldn't have anything to do with sezures.

    Freedom
    The only thing I could find online about it talked about adding more water / fluids to the mix, as the kidneys aren't working right.  Something about too much heart fire and not enough cool in the kidneys.  Since reading that, I make sure to give him half and half, dry kibble and canned food.  He is always better after eating, but that could just be the normal cycle, eat, sleep while you digest, then get up and move again.

    Nope -- you absolutely can NOT "find out" the whole thot pattern of Chinese medicine online in a few minutes.  Heck I've had it demonstrated umpteen zillion times on my dogs (like we've used it on 8 dogs at least) and I've had classes/courses in it -- and I still can't really puzzle out the whole heat/dampness thing -- Dr. D was going on and on to me tonight about it (Tink and Charlie -- opposite ends of the spectrum have patterns that were similar to her -- I just took the bottle and walked away with a LITTLe more understanding).

    You honestly have to go TO someone who knows what they're talking about.  And I don't mean someone who has had a couple of weekend courses in acupncture.  You honestly need someone who believes in it enough to make it their WHOLE practice.

     WAs it Marlin you were telling me who has the bad liver values??  If so that is even MORE likely for it to be seizure-oriented -- the liver has a HUGE amount to do with seizures (and that's not a Western pharmaceutical medicine thing -- that's Oriental medicine -- and I have SEEN IT in practice -- it is amazing.

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    calliecritturs
    WAs it Marlin you were telling me who has the bad liver values??

     

     

    That was Sugar, and she was fine after 2 weeks of the meds and the 3 things you suggested.  AND I tracked down the cause as well, and boy was I furious! I was using Canyon Creek chicken jerky.  I've known NOT to use stuff from China for over 2 years.  The front of the package says, AN AMERICAN COMPANY.  Come to find out, on the back in fine print, it said Product of China.  So I stopped using that as well.  Her liver values came right down, thanks in large part of your assistance, and she is fine in that regard now.  It was just "luck" that we caught the issue very early on, she needed the blood work for a procedure and we found it.

     

     

     

     

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    You might talk with some Bull Terrier people about this. It is COMMON in their breed, an inherited OCD thing...not a seizure...not vestibular. It is linked to the ALL WHITE coloration but any color BT can be a spinner. Many do it to the point that they wear off the pads of their feet. It's very sad. To me it seem more like Autism or perhaps ADHD...I wonder if the OCD meds work similarly to meds used for those? I am sorry tho, this is a sad thing when it happens. :(
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    I don't have anything helpful to offer -- I just wanted to say that I'm sorry to hear about little Marlin.  It made me sad to read what you and he are dealing with.  Poor little guy. 

    I have no knowledge of anything like this, but it seems like the OCD meds should help, since it appears to be more compulsive as a brain or "mental" impulse, as opposed to something 100% physical, like a full-blown seizure.  I'm guessing that if you tried to hold a dog who's having a full-blown seizure, the body and muscles would still convulse, right?  But, if you hold Marlin, or put your hands on him mid-spin, does his body "fight" against your hands so he can keep spinning, or does he stop? 

    I understand why the vet said an MRI wouldn't really help you -- our beloved Tonka, now at the Bridge, exhibited several symptoms of what seemed like a brain tumor, and our vet said the same thing -- having the MRI would only confirm it, but it couldn't be treated.  Also, some of his symptoms were severe enough that putting him through the stress of traveling an hour away and undergoing the MRI itself would've been rather risky, so we opted not to do it.  But, it was hard not to know if that was really the diagnosis when we were facing a heart-breaking decision about his time left with us.  It was a horrible, difficult time -- over 6 years ago, and still very upsetting to think about.

    Gentle hugs to Marlin -- I don't know what I'd be doing if in your shoes -- I'd probably be compelled to hold him all the time, and that's probably not possible or even a good idea.  I hope you find some help from the meds or other supplements suggested.

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    rwbeagles
    To me it seem more like Autism or perhaps ADHD...I wonder if the OCD meds work similarly to meds used for those? I am sorry tho, this is a sad thing when it happens. :(

    Because the brain is so largely "electric" in nature all this stuff is more "related" than it seems.  (that's the vet explanation to ME)

    There are two herbs Tink is on for her "twitching"  --- one of them, in particular, is one used on ADHD kids, and humans that are OCD. The other is used for various things but often in mild seizure stuff (it's one of the ones Kee Shu was on).

    And my TCVM vet always always reminds me that A) according to Chinese medicine seizures are ALWAYS going to increase in the "spring" (whatever time of year "spring" is where you live); and B) the liver is always tied to stuff like this.  somehow the liver is 'stressed' -- which makes sense to me in a way, given that the liver removes "toxins" from the blood among other things.

    Saying Tink shares a LOT of the behaviors that you see in ADHD is no stretch -- I laughed when the vet told me that -- not because it was hysterical, but because it made so much sense.

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    Bean, my Chinese Crested, is an OCD spinner. She has spinned until she's limped, and she has a muscle difference between her left and right leg. She spins to the right. She's had every test short of an MRI, and there is nothing physically wrong, that's been found. Her sire, I'm told, doesn't EVER go straight.

     Bean can heel beautifully. She does go outs, and comes in a straight line when called. She can go over a jump, perfectly straight. She can run straight to catch a frisbee or fetch a ball. OCD supplements and medications do help her, and behavior mod has been a big thing, for her. She came this way, though. She's been spinning since she was a puppy. Does OCD stuff happen suddenly?

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    jennie_c_d
    Does OCD stuff happen suddenly?

    I don't know the answer to that -- I noticed early on when Tink started "twitching" in her face but it took us a month or so to decide both of us were seeing it and *when* she does it (for her it's when she's concentrating on something intently).

    I'm not going to say it 'starts' suddenly altho it did and became more pronounced.

    Somehow it's self-rewarding for some ... but it's nothing Tink does deliberately -- her's is primarily chemical/brain related I think --

    I'm not sure where the "line" is -- on some level some of these behaviors are rewarding or comforting -- but on another they just "are".

    Kee's were VERY complicated and it actually took the vet to see the "pattern" (and there WAS a pattern) -- Tink's is almost a twitch or a flinch -- nearly imperceptible.

    WE have tried since the onset WE saw to disconnect her and calm her down if possible because I didn't want it to grow

    But I never saw Kee's "begin" but I KNOW everyone used to comment how "cute" it was so I can imagine it being somehow rewarding.

    I have a feeling it's too individual and too dog-specific to get a real answer to this question you've asked.  GREAT question ...  but I'm clueless

    • Gold Top Dog

     Have a list of things, based on this thread and info from the other 2 forums I am on.

    I put his peacoat on him yesterday afternoon.  While he did spin on 2 separate occasions while wearing it, there was a noticeable decline in the spinning.  HOORAY!

    We are going to try him on Anipryl, which is FDA approved for ccd - canine cognitive disorder (he was diagnosed with that last July).

    I am going to update his blood work, last time was July 2011.  Will be sure to get liver and kidney values, and anything else the vet decides to add.

    Marlin has been on aspirin and Tramadol for a few months, for his arthritis.  He can't take Tramadol with Anipryl, so I have stopped that (and the aspirin, just because).  While he seems to be weaker in the rear  - the reason we started those 2 meds - this 'may' be related to him spinning less?  Need more time, to see if there is a connection.

     From the link I posted already, going to feed him more often, smaller amounts, add more canned to his meals.  Will add the Sam-e, and do a few of the other things on there too.

    I started looking into the Bull Terrier issues yesterday, got interrupted and need to do a bit more on that.  Marlin is age 13.5 years and this just started.  

    Lots to do for Darlin' Marlin!

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    Freedom
      Will be sure to get liver and kidney values, and anything else the vet decides to add.

    Generally only broad-spectrum bloodwork (like a chem panel or super-chem panel as Antech calls them) will show all the kidney & liver values

    Freedom
    Marlin has been on aspirin and Tramadol for a few months, for his arthritis.

    you may want to try NutraJoint (Osteo-biflex Knox Nutra Joint) -- I use just the plain one (no glucosamine/condroitin -- I don't use those myself either).  It will take you at least two months to 'see' a difference, but it literally helps the body re-build cartilage so it's a more permanent help for arthritis.  (G&C only "plump up" cartilage that is there -- but if it's worn away in old joints they don't do much at all)

    Honestly -- there are herbs I'd use rather than the aspirin and Tramadol.  Email me and I'll send you a list of what I use (both on me and the dogs).  Use the essential oils on him (you've got peppermint or something don't you?  wintergreen, peppermint, a blend like White Flower Oil) -- they'll relieve a lot of pain and the massage will help the back end.