Chronic Bronchitis

I have experience in this both in dogs and myself (I was actually diagnosed COPD at one point in time -- Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease) --

 I have found alternative medicine extremely helpful here -- TCVM (Traditional Chinese Veterinary Medicine) http://www.tcvm.com -- both for me and my dogs.  Herbs that help dry up the chest while not causing other nasty problems in the body. 

 There is a locator on the left of that page -- but don't just try to go to the "closest" one - if you'll email me, I can discuss it with you further and help you know how to pick a TCVM vet if you want to try it.  It's incredibly helpful.

I have also found homeopathics to be truly stellar -- but it's best there, also to find a vet who does that.  Homeopathy, for something so "weak" and dilute as remedies are, is very powerful medicine.  It's brought about startling change in *me* -- 7-8 years ago I was literally on 3-4 inhalers, 4 breathing treatments a day and I was a flat out mess.  to be honest I tried homeopathy in despair because I can't take steroids and the things they typically treat this stuff with (the side effects in me, were quite literally killing me).

I can give you other links but honestly I need to know more about what meds the vet is giving, etc.

One question I MUST ask -- has the vet **carefully** evaluated whether this could be heart-related.  A heart cough and a lung cough can be identical -- it can be VERY difficult to discern which is which, and honestly you really can't just assume it's always "another cough" -- and treat the same way.

Has the vet discussed the potential for this to be extremely allrgy-related?

Generally they don't use a vaporizer near dogs simply because it's too easy for them to get burned.  It can be more productive to hold them in your lap in the bathroom while the hot shower is running and then try to help them break up the yuck in their chests.

   Hi Karen; welcome to the forum.  Jessie was diagnosed with chronic bronchitis in October of 2009; she had just turned 11. It's fairly common in dogs. Like Callie said, it's important to make sure the cough isn't related to heart disease. Jessie had chest x-rays and a cardiac echo at Purdue Veterinary Teaching Hospital. Her heart was, and is, in great shape. They also took samples from her lungs (a bronchoalveolar lavage) to see if the cough was caused by an infection. It was determined that she had bronchitis caused by allergies; she has a history of serious environmental allergies. Chronic bronchitis is a disease that will progress if the inflammation isn't controlled. I've had excellent results with a metered dose inhaler called Flovent HFA. It has significantly reduced her coughing spells to the point that she goes for several days without coughing. I use a spacer ( AeroDawg aerosol chamber) and mask to administer the Flovent; Jessie gets one puff, twice a day. Flovent comes in different amounts; the internist prescribed 220 mcg for Jessie, based on her size. Smaller dogs and cats are prescribed 110 or 44 mcg. The medicine in Flovent is a steroid called fluticasone propionate. It does not have systemic side effects because it is inhaled directly into the lungs. 220 mcg's is less than a fourth of a milligram, so it's a very small amount. It is expensive, costing me about $237 every 2 months, but it hasn't effected Jessie's kidney and liver values. Unlike oral steroids, it takes awhile for it to have full effect. I noticed an improvement in about 10 days, and as time passed, she kept getting better.

      A veterinarian named Philip Padrid developed the treatment;    Respiratory Drugs - WSAVA 2005 Congress

     Information about AeroDawg;  AeroDawg* | Trudell Medical International*

       I use a humidifier in the winter and keep the humidity about 50%. Please let me know if you have anymore questions.

My 13 year old 17.5 kg border collie was diagnosed with chronic bronchitis a couple of months back. She was started on prednisolone at 5mg twice a day for 3 days followed by 5mg once a day for about 2 weeks, then to 5mg every other day. But there was no discussion about tapering further down or getting her off it alltogether. At my suggestion we took it down to 2.5 mg every other day. Just waiting to see if the occasional mild urinary incontinence stops. At the highest dose, she had stomach upsets and panting spells as well. Those have now gone.

She was put on Vivitonin as well - for the oxygenation effects. But I don't think it makes any difference and it makes her a bit hyper in the evening so I took her off it.

I had no idea she had bronchitis. The symptoms were occasional raspy breathing and the odd wheeze - no coughing.  In fact she had a scope for LP and while under, had chest X rays which revealed the inflammation. 

Was concerned about long term side effects of prednisolone. When I asked the vet about getting her off it, the response was she would be more concerned if it was a younger dog. Well I'm not ready to call time on her yet! Border collies often go on to 15/16 and she is still very agile and playful. I asked about inhaled drugs as an alternative and she said these were primarily designed for humans and didn't always work (plus I believe they are expensive?).

The symptoms haven't gone but are not as bad. I'm determined to get her down still further. I exercise her carefully, have put her on a home cooked diet, have invested in an expensive air purifier (on account of dust from the multifuel stove) and am obsessional about sterilising her feeding bowl. Meanwhile she gets occasional raw or manuka honey and the odd teaspoon of natural yoghurt.

I just wondered what other experiences are of managing bronchitis?

Cheers 

Milk thistle -- add bout a teaspoon of the ground herb to her food twice a day.  The bulk herb is FAR cheaper than the capsules (like a whole pound of the herb is the same price as one bottle of capsules -- but there is only about 1 oz or so of herb IN the bottle of capsl).

http://www.leavesandroots.com or http://www.mountainroseherbs.com -- both are good quality and reputable companies to deal with.

 The milk thistle will help protect the liver and will help detox the body from the pred's effects. 

I have also used herbals very successfully to help reduce the inflammation in the lungs -- email me if you want more help.  I have done this several times.

  Welcome to the forum;  I'm sorry that your girl was diagnosed with chronic bronchitis. I had never heard of dogs getting chronic bronchitis until Jessie was diagnosed with it in the fall of 2009 when she was eleven years old. My vet referred her to a vet teaching hospital to find the cause for her cough after the antibiotics he prescribed failed to help. She had x-rays, a tracheal wash, and they also took samples deeper in her lungs using a process called a lavage. A tiny camera revealed that the walls of her bronchial passages were thickened and she had a lot of mucus in her lungs. The internist said the cause of the chronic bronchitis was allergies. She does not take prednisone; we use an inhaled steroid instead. The brand name is Flovent and the medicine is fluticasone propionate. She gets one puff in the morning and one in the evening. It is a very small amount of steroid, 240mcg, which is less than a quarter of a milligram. It is very effective because it goes directly to the lungs. It is expensive, costing about $120 a month, but does not have any side effects and does not effect the liver or kidneys. Jessie has been doing very well with this treatment and rarely coughs; she used to have three to four coughing spells a day. I asked the internist if we could reduce the amount of puffs Jessie gets and she said never do less than one puff a day. This condition is not curable and the inflammation will get worse if it's not treated. At first, the prognosis for Jessie was guarded because of how serious this condition is. That was changed when she responded so well to the Flovent. So, be sure to monitor your girl carefully to ensure she's doing well. Anti-inflammatory supplements such as fish oil can help. Curcumin has been proven to reduce airway inflammation in laboratory studies so I add it to Jessie's food;

   Curcumin attenuates allergic airway inflammation a... [J Ethnopharmacol. 2010] - PubMed result

Dr. Padrid developed the treatments for cats and dogs using Flovent; this is his protocol;

   Microsoft Word - 0253 - Dose Protocol by Dr Padrid DRAFT.doc - kat_article01.pdf

   This is the spacer I use for Jessie;

   AeroDawg: Use with Inhaler Meds - Chronic Bronchitis in Dogs

   I don't use the mask that comes with the spacer because it's too small for her. I use a surgical mask that fits over her muzzle instead. I'll be glad to answer anymore questions you have.

Thanks people for the response. Though the vet practice has a good reputation, I think they were a bit lax in not discussing the potential long term effects of oral prednisolone. And though their info sheet mentioned 'inappropriate urination' it wasn't clear that this could be actual urinary incontinence! Nor was there any info about what might have caused it or guidance about diet or lifestyle. Anyway I want to take her down to 2.5mg every 3 days as a maximum and at the next visit will discuss the flovent as an alternative. I don't know why this wasn't mentioned. Maybe UK vets aren't so keen or maybe we can't even get it here? I give her raw or manuka money to ease any chestiness and add wild salmon oil to her food. Maybe I'll try the milk thistle as well thanks. I'm working on the humidity also.

Cheers.

tailwaggers

Though the vet practice has a good reputation, I think they were a bit lax in not discussing the potential long term effects of oral prednisolone. And though their info sheet mentioned 'inappropriate urination' it wasn't clear that this could be actual urinary incontinence

Pred makes them drink like fiends. -- but it's more than that, and it's not typical "incontinance" either.  Put in easy language, prednisone has strange effects on the muscles -- sometimes random, sometimes specific.  Muscle spasms are very common (and it's **very** difficult with a dog to know when they have such). 

But put plainly it interferes with the brain's ability to "talk to" the muscles.  So, for example, the dog is outside and knows it MUST urinate -- but when the dog 'assumes' the position' it can't make the muscles relax in order TO go.  it may give up eventually and come back inside still full.  But then 5 seconds or 15 minutes later SUDDENLY the bladder will let go (often just as soon as they get inside).  It looks like the dog has had a "deliberate" accident but it is definitely not!

 Conversely -- the dog may not even be aware that it must go (again neural messages not getting through from muscle to brain or brain to muscle) and suddenly the dog wets - often where it lies.

TYPICALLY once the dog is off the prednisone that will abate.  As a human who has taken pred all too many times I can tell you this is enormously frustrating to the victim -- and the muscle spasms can be violent and painful -- you will see many dogs experience this in the hindquarters -- they may 'tremor' when they stand  and may be too weak to stand at times.

But once you get them off the pred and get some detoxification done they go back to normal.

In honesty -- any meds that address "incontinence" may or may not work but they have serious side effects on their own.

tailwaggers

I give her raw or manuka money to ease any chestiness and add wild salmon oil to her food.

manuka honey is a good choice -- raw honey (local honey to you) is often good for allergies. 

I would suggest slippery elm to reduce inflammation in the chest.  As I said there are a LOT of alternative things you can do -- please contact me if you want to discuss.  I'm pretty knowledgeable about what is available in the UK (My husband is from Dundee.)

tailwaggers

Maybe I'll try the milk thistle as well

Milk thistle is even being used here by regular vets (under the brand name "Marin" -- it's a highly processed version of the herb).  I far prefer the actual herb to the pharmaceutical.

But milk thistle honestly needs to be about the *first* thing to do -- milk thistle protects the liver.  But it also helps detox the liver (and it's the body's reaction to those toxins that is likely worsening the incontinence).  However, the true magic of milk thistle is actually it's least known use -- it aids liver function markedly.  it will help any pharmaceutical you use do "more" (so hopefully you can use less of it).  It simply helps the liver function *better* than it will without the milk thistle.

 Be hugely concerned about quality -- I always prefer to buy milk thistle in bulk (not in capsules but merely the ground herb) -- you can see the quality that way, and it is far less expensive

Another silly idea, but one that works well, is to put a t-shirt on the dog (keep the tag under the chin -- the "chest" of a t-shirt is usually more roomy and that fits the dog better over the back.  gather up any excess fabric at the side and secure with a rubber band.  Keeping the chest warm often helps reduce coughing.

good luck!  Most vets never mention the side effects of the drugs they are giving.  Mostly they don't want to frighten clients -- they assume that "compliance" (getting people to actually GIVE the meds they are given) is such a huge problem that they don't want to give the humans any 'reason' NOT to give the meds.  *sigh* 

There are also *many* good homeopathic remedies that can be used for this -- again -- contact me if you want to discuss.I use homeopathics extensively on my dogs.

Good luck!!  Callie

calliecritturs

tailwaggers

Though the vet practice has a good reputation, I think they were a bit lax in not discussing the potential long term effects of oral prednisolone. And though their info sheet mentioned 'inappropriate urination' it wasn't clear that this could be actual urinary incontinence

Pred makes them drink like fiends. -- but it's more than that, and it's not typical "incontinance" either.  Put in easy language, prednisone has strange effects on the muscles -- sometimes random, sometimes specific.  Muscle spasms are very common (and it's **very** difficult with a dog to know when they have such). 

But put plainly it interferes with the brain's ability to "talk to" the muscles.  So, for example, the dog is outside and knows it MUST urinate -- but when the dog 'assumes' the position' it can't make the muscles relax in order TO go.  it may give up eventually and come back inside still full.  But then 5 seconds or 15 minutes later SUDDENLY the bladder will let go (often just as soon as they get inside).  It looks like the dog has had a "deliberate" accident but it is definitely not!

 Conversely -- the dog may not even be aware that it must go (again neural messages not getting through from muscle to brain or brain to muscle) and suddenly the dog wets - often where it lies.

TYPICALLY once the dog is off the prednisone that will abate.  As a human who has taken pred all too many times I can tell you this is enormously frustrating to the victim -- and the muscle spasms can be violent and painful -- you will see many dogs experience this in the hindquarters -- they may 'tremor' when they stand  and may be too weak to stand at times.

But once you get them off the pred and get some detoxification done they go back to normal.

In honesty -- any meds that address "incontinence" may or may not work but they have serious side effects on their own.

tailwaggers

I give her raw or manuka money to ease any chestiness and add wild salmon oil to her food.

manuka honey is a good choice -- raw honey (local honey to you) is often good for allergies. 

I would suggest slippery elm to reduce inflammation in the chest.  As I said there are a LOT of alternative things you can do -- please contact me if you want to discuss.  I'm pretty knowledgeable about what is available in the UK (My husband is from Dundee.)

tailwaggers

Maybe I'll try the milk thistle as well

Milk thistle is even being used here by regular vets (under the brand name "Marin" -- it's a highly processed version of the herb).  I far prefer the actual herb to the pharmaceutical.

But milk thistle honestly needs to be about the *first* thing to do -- milk thistle protects the liver.  But it also helps detox the liver (and it's the body's reaction to those toxins that is likely worsening the incontinence).  However, the true magic of milk thistle is actually it's least known use -- it aids liver function markedly.  it will help any pharmaceutical you use do "more" (so hopefully you can use less of it).  It simply helps the liver function *better* than it will without the milk thistle.

 Be hugely concerned about quality -- I always prefer to buy milk thistle in bulk (not in capsules but merely the ground herb) -- you can see the quality that way, and it is far less expensive

Another silly idea, but one that works well, is to put a t-shirt on the dog (keep the tag under the chin -- the "chest" of a t-shirt is usually more roomy and that fits the dog better over the back.  gather up any excess fabric at the side and secure with a rubber band.  Keeping the chest warm often helps reduce coughing.

good luck!  Most vets never mention the side effects of the drugs they are giving.  Mostly they don't want to frighten clients -- they assume that "compliance" (getting people to actually GIVE the meds they are given) is such a huge problem that they don't want to give the humans any 'reason' NOT to give the meds.  *sigh* 

There are also *many* good homeopathic remedies that can be used for this -- again -- contact me if you want to discuss.I use homeopathics extensively on my dogs.

Good luck!!  Callie

 My Jezebelle was diagnosed with CB 2 years ago. So far, we've not had to resort to steroids and rely solely on herbs/homeopathics. Last years x-ray showed the same scarring from the previous years x-ray with no current inflammation. She's actually due for her x-ray again and I'm hoping we see the same results. My vet was big on getting her onto a free radical scavenger to help the body deal with the inflammation. She really likes dogs on CoQ10 when they are dealing with a chronic inflammation. I also have her on Hawthorn Berry (helps the heart and with oxygenation), Milk Thistle (to help the body handle the chronic inflammation), and a product by RidgeCrest Herbals called Clear Lungs (blue label). I've had her on Slippery Elm for years, and we have postulated that her being on that helped mitigate the damage to her lungs long before the diagnosis.

Wishing you all the best!

 Sounds like a forward thinking vet stardance.

I'm not sure about getting more X rays done though it would be good to see if we were beating the inflammation.. My vet only does them under anaesthesia and at her age, I'm concerned about the risk.

 I've been very lucky in my relationship with Dr. B. My former vet wasn't open to new things. He was comfortable with what he knew and deviating out of that left him at a loss at how to proceed. I admit, I vet shopped before being blessed with my current team. They are a wonderful group of people. And sometimes, that is what we have to do - find a second opinion that may offer an alternative treatment or be open to trying a different course of treatment that our current doctors dismiss.

Don't get me wrong, I'll use steroids if that is what is called for, but at Jezzy's age of diagnosis (7 years old), Dr. B and I both knew what the long term effects of steroids on her little body (7 lbs)would be. After an initial run of antibiotics and a short course of pred, the follow up x-ray showed an improvement. I took the Clear Lungs (Callie told me about it) idea to Dr. B and she saw no reason not to try it. She was also open to the inhaled steroid after I told her what Jessie's Mom told me.

Jezzy was miserable while on the short course of pred, so I was hoping to find an alternative treatment that would keep her healthy AND give her a good quality of life. So far, we have been blessed.

Also, I keep Jezzy's bed laundered regularly, as well as trying to keep the dander/dust down in the house. And, I will admit to severely limiting her time outside when the pollen is bad. I've been washing her feet off this spring when she comes inside, and it is very evident by what is in the wash bowl at how heavy the pollen count is.

What is your girls name? And maybe a picture? We love to see our members! Maybe taking these ideas to your vet and talking with him will lead to a different treatment regimen? And seeing if they can do the x-ray without anesthesia? And if that all fails, a 2nd opinion never hurts!

PS If your vet doesn't think your dog would stand the face mask for the inhaled steroids, even old dogs can learn new tricks. And I do believe they understand we are trying to help and that it will make them feel better - I've seen it!

 I had forgotten about CoQ10; great suggestion. I used to give it to Jessie but had to stop when she was started on an anti-coagulant. She may be coming off of the anti-coagulant soon, and I would love to use CoQ10 again.

stardancnminpin

 I've been very lucky in my relationship with Dr. B. My former vet wasn't open to new things. He was comfortable with what he knew and deviating out of that left him at a loss at how to proceed. I admit, I vet shopped before being blessed with my current team. They are a wonderful group of people. And sometimes, that is what we have to do - find a second opinion that may offer an alternative treatment or be open to trying a different course of treatment that our current doctors dismiss.

  Very true; I had to find a different vet years ago when Jessie's then vet wanted to use steroids for her allergies instead of pursuing other options. Her current vet, though not holistic, is very open to other options and referred me to a holistic vet for acupuncture and herbs for her arthritis.

stardancnminpin

Jezzy was miserable while on the short course of pred, so I was hoping to find an alternative treatment that would keep her healthy AND give her a good quality of life. So far, we have been blessed.

  It's great to hear that she's doing so well; I've often wondered how she was doing.

stardancnminpin

Also, I keep Jezzy's bed laundered regularly, as well as trying to keep the dander/dust down in the house. And, I will admit to severely limiting her time outside when the pollen is bad. I've been washing her feet off this spring when she comes inside, and it is very evident by what is in the wash bowl at how heavy the pollen count is

  Excellent information.

stardancnminpin

PS If your vet doesn't think your dog would stand the face mask for the inhaled steroids, even old dogs can learn new tricks. And I do believe they understand we are trying to help and that it will make them feel better - I've seen it!

  IT was very easy for Jessie to adapt to the mask. This treatment is also used for cats, so if they can adapt it's a cinch for dogs. Also, the treatment only takes about 10 seconds twice a day, so they only have the mask on a brief time. Jessie comes to me when I get the mask because she gets a treat afterwards.

 ETA: good luck with the next set of x-rays; I hope her lungs look good.

 Her name is Poppy - I'll get a photo sorted! I'm desperate to get her off the pred even though it is quite a low dose. Currently 2.5mg every other day. She was on 5mg every other day and when I asked the vet about tapering down from that, she suggested halving it and keeping it every other day. I think the next taper will be to give it once every 3 days. I really don't know how fast I can safely go  - I'm thinking two weeks at this stage then reduce to every 3 days. I think the vet is a bit sceptical and she said I might need to give more sometimes but actually the symptoms are improving. Maybe as much due to lifestyle changes. I've never cleaned so much - plus I bought an air purifier that doesn't give out ozone. And I have totally changed her exercise regime

Cheers

 Hi again

I am trying to reduce Poppy's oral prednisolone and am looking at more natural, less harmful alternatives (thanks to Callie for her help) as well as a move to Flovent if all else fails. Can you believe my vet had never heard about it's use for canine bronchitis? So I've emailed them all the links.

Meanwhile there is nothing for it but to put her into incontinence pants on her 'leaky days' 

x