Cushings

 Welcome to the forum. I'm so sorry your girl has Cushings. I don't have personal experience with this disease, but someone will be along to give you advice. I'll keep your girl in my thoughts; ((( hugs)))

 I have had a dog with Cushings. She had the typical "pot belly" and she lost all the hair on her tail and feet. Oddly enough, it was the doggie dermatologist that diagnosed her. Anyway, she was on Lysodren for about a year and she was happy and she started playing again and she grew hair back on her tail. After her diagnosis, she lived about another year and a half.

The medicine, Lysodren is VERY expensive. I think we paid probably $80 for a month's supply. There is another drug that's out there that I *think* starts with an A that may be a little cheaper, (anipril?) but I have no experience with it.  It was very strange also, we had to wear gloves when we handled the lysodren too, the vet said it was the equivalent to a chemotherapy drug.

This was back in 2003 when nobody in my family knew yearly vaccines were harmful, and Candy ended up getting a total of 7 or 8 shots (even stupid stuff like lymes and coccidia when we dont have ticks) and the proheart6 vaccine.  She passed away about a week after she got her shots.So please, get only what you have to, (i.e. rabies because it's required by law, and sometimes not even that, as you can do titers)  as cushings screws up their immune system.

I would recommend giving her something called Milk Thistle. It helps the liver. It helped my little liver-shunt puppy be able to function!. You can get the people brand at the health food stores- or even the supermarket. The brand I get is "Nature's Bounty" at Kroger. It works wonders!

Good luck!

The reviews on Supraglan are mixed with some folks believing that it is complete quackery with no supporting research:
http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2010/07/empty-promises-not-medicine/

The enlarged liver may rule out the use of Trilostane in lue of Lysodren:
http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/vetmed/Medicine/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/491107
http://www.vetstreamcanis.com/ACI/February08/VMD2/FactSheet052.asp
"A new treatment for Cushing's disease is trilostane (Vetoryl). This is a drug that inhibits the adrenal glands' ability to produce cortisol. Unlike mitotane it does not destroy adrenal tissue. It is important to realize that this drug does not do anything to treat the tumor (pituitary or adrenal) causing the disease but it can be used to control the signs of cortisol excess in dogs with both pituitary and adrenal dependent Cushing's syndrome. The drug is given as a tablet once (or sometimes twice) daily and it must be given regularly or hormone levels will rapidly rise again. As is the case with mitotane, routine blood tests are taken three or four times a year to ensure that treatment does not need to be altered."

Here are a few more sites that may give you some answers:

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2097&aid=416
http://www.kateconnick.com/library/cushingsdisease.html
http://www.lbah.com/canine/cushings.htm
http://www.marvistavet.com/html/cushing_s_disease.html
http://www.2ndchance.info/cushings.htm
http://www.newmanveterinary.com/CushingDiag.html
http://www.newmanveterinary.com/CushSignFrame.html
http://www.io.com/~lolawson/cushings/
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CanineCushings-AutoimmuneCare/

NOTE:
"Although most dogs with Cushing's disease cannot be cured, their quality of life (as well as the owner's quality of life) can be improved, and their lives may be extended with early intervention. It is often possible to successfully manage this disease for years. It thus behooves the pet owner to become familiar with the typical signs of Cushing's and the treatments available."

thedoc617

This was back in 2003 when nobody in my family knew yearly vaccines were harmful, and Candy ended up getting a total of 7 or 8 shots (even stupid stuff like lymes and coccidia when we dont have ticks) and the proheart6 vaccine.

You probably just misspoke, but I want to be sure that all readers know that ProHeart6 is not a vaccine.  It is an injection of heartworm pesticide that is thought to stay in the bloodstream for 6 months (longer?).  The dog's liver and kidney have to deal with this chemical 24-hours a day 7-days a week.

Interceptor and Heartgard kill heartworms and are out of the dog's system within 24-48 hours.  This puts much less strain on the liver and kidneys.

The first version of ProHeart6 killed (or destroyed the health of) a lot of dogs and was pulled off the US market.  The newer version currently on the market is supposedly "fixed" (chemical contaminant identified and eliminated?), but it sure isn't a product I would use. 

I really don't understand why any vet would give ProHeart6 to a Cushing's dog - particularly not without recent testing for kidney problems.
http://www.vetinfo.com/dcushrenal.html
"Dogs with Cushing's disease frequently develop high blood pressure and an increase in blood clotting, which leads to kidney damage, heart damage and pulmonary embolisms. ... If Cushing's disease is treated and the treatment is successful, some of the above problems are less likely"

I think I'd probably want to confirm that she actually had Cushings before treating it.  There have been two times when they thought my dog had Cushings and she didn't.  This way you aren't medicating unnecessarily and also paying for medications that might not be needed.  I'd shop around for another price on that Cushings tests.  I'm not sure where you are located but that $450 is high.  I can dig up my receipt for what I paid.  She just had her 2nd one less than a year ago. 

Buddy went to the vet today.  I mentioned to the vet that Buddy has been drinking a lot of water and constantly has "labored" breathing.  He did a full panel and everything looks good.  He mentioned the possibility of Cushings.  Said that it would take a 1/2 to full day of testing to truly diagnose it and its of course pricey.

The vet said that Cushings is manageable with meds and that dogs with this disease can live for 3-4 more years.  I have opted to skip further tests for now, considering his age.  Buddy is a large Labrador and 12.5 years old.  Quality of life for the old boy is my focus for him.

the cushings test is expensive because of the medication that has to be injected into the dogs for the second blood draw. We've done a few at the clinic I work for... but I honestly cannot remember the pricing. 450 seems high though... but it always depends on your area. Testing is definitely NOT a bad idea - especially if a pet is showing symptoms.

I am *so* sorry it has taken me this long to respond.  Just been a busy couple of days.

DO NOT treat for Cushings without a complete diagnosis.  A lot of things can cause a dog to *look* Cushingoid (that's actually a veterinary term for a dog that "looks like" Cushings without it being the disease) without the dog actually having it.

The vet *has* to rule out Cushings before treating it any other way (because otherwise you can merely "look like" you're treating without treating the actual cause).  But I've never paid that much for a Bile Acids test *ever* (which is the typical test for Cushings). 

They have to be fasted for it -- and then blood is drawn early in the morning and tested ... then they are fed and tested to see their chemical response a number of hours later. 

 My Billy had IMHA -- first off he had majorly cruddy skin his whole life, and had huge huge allergies.  But after being treated for IMHA the skin got even worse.  He had probably six bile acids tests over the course of 4 years.  The steroids & steroid-like immune suppressors he was on for the IMHA made him LOOK like he had Cushings.  pot belly, cruddy skin, and other "signs".  But he did *not* have Cushings.  But we had to rule it out many times.

Essentially Cushings is a body balance problem -- where Addison's disease is where the body produces too little of it's own natural Cortisol (our own body is supposed to create a kind of corticosteroid for it's own use), Cushings is where the body makes too much!

Typically a dog with Cushings has had prior treatment with steroids of some sort or some illness in its history. 

Has your vet completely ruled out thyroid problems?  Given that this is a yorkie have you done breed-specific thyroid testing?  I mean by sending blood either to Michigan State University or directly to Dr. Dodds at Hemopet?  Both do breed-specific thyroid testing which can be far far more accurate than a simple lab thyroid panel.

Your typical lab thyroid panel judges the dog against a static "chart" -- meaning it's the same chart used for a yorkie, a rottweiler, a labrador, a border collie, a bull dog, or a cocker spaniel.  It's not just "size" but mostly metabolism that determines this.  A terrier has a completely different metabolic rate than other breeds.  And a yorkie would have a different metabolic rate than an amstaff!  (meaning it's more specific even than breed group)

Beyond that -- to be perfectly honest with you, and having been confronted with this question numerous times, I can tell you that if I ever have a dog who *does* test positive for Cushings I'm not treating with the big drugs.  I would use either homeopathy or TCVM (traditional Chinese veterinary medicine) in a heartbeat.  They can balance the body without the big drugs and frankly it all can wind up being a better way of spending your money (and far cheaper when it comes down to the cost of those drugs).  I have seen homeopathy make enormous changes like that -- and TCVM as well.  You treat with something that can give you longevity without the side effects of the drugs.

If you want to talk to me about either homoeopathy or TCVM please email me (click the "Contact" button across from my name) and I can help begin to guide you on how to find a practitioner near where you live.  I'm not a vet -- just a lady who has used both of these for a long time.  There are even homeopaths who will treat long distance and mail meds to you if there is no one near you.

The Chi Institute is usually where I suggest folks find a TCVM vet:  http://www.tcvm.com -- there's a locator on the left of the front page.

http://www.holisticvetlist.com/ is the American Holistic Veterinary Medical Assn -- their vet finder is a bit complicated to use and can be confusing with all the various modalities, so again, if I can help you navigate that let me know.

You do need to make sure of the diagnosis -- there are SO many other things it could be and Cushings is too severe to risk treating for it if it's NOT the right thing (which is why vets want that test).  But that price seems REALLY steep to me -- that alone would honestly make me suggest a second opinion. 

HOpe this helps and I don't mean to be cryptic.  But I would also give you hope -- when a vet merely suggests Cushings it can sound like such a death knell.  But pursuing a path that can really help can often be an incredible choice.

I am so sorry that the vet thinks your dog may have cushings.  My 11 year old lab was tested for it, and I am told she has it.  I will tell you that my heart stopped for days having heard this, and I was just so upset.

Now, we have had another test done, and yes she is still positive for it, but I have been doing some reading on my own and I feel I can help her through this time of her life.  I will not treat with the drugs the vet is recommending, because to tell you the truth, the vet didn't use them on their dog. Too many side effects possible and worse damage possible from them.  But, having said that, everyone has to do what they feel is right for their dog.

I want Pella to enjoy the rest of her life and I want to make it the best for her. I will be trying natural things to help her with this, some may work and some may not, but I will keep searching until I find someone who has some experience with this and can offer suggestions and help because they have been there. Someone that will share with me what they did for their dog, not someone who refers me to another vet or doctor.  I feel alot of times we learn from others experiences, those that share their stories.  I am not looking for someone to tell me how to treat my dog, just someone that can relate to the process of finding out what to do.

Right now, I would suggest relaxing and reading everything you can about this illness. Then picking a path, whichever one feels comfortable for you and your dog. 

    This website may help;   Pet Owner's Crash Course in Canine Cushing's Disease  

   A boxer was diagnosed with Cushings and the owner decided to try Lysoderm, with positive results. Pictures of her dog at the time he was diagnosed and after being on Lysoderm are included.

Allie has this disease, she's almost 12. We did one round of lysodren, but it made her so sick I stopped. Her hair grew back soft and silky including tail. And is still ok. she doesnt get around too well, and drinks water to excess, but unless she worsens I can't afford more expensive meds. I will try the milk thistle though. She eats well, is very loveable and doesn't seem to be suffering.

I honestly can't say enough about TCVM -- http://www.tcvm.com -- acupuncture is a huge huge help and the herbals (unlike American herbals) are incredibly helpful with no side effects.  The initial appt is expensive but they spend about 1 1/2 hours with your dog (and yeah, I mean the vet!!!) and treatment is PART of the cost (not extra).  Then follow-up appts are usually close to what a regular vet appt is but it does include acupuncture.  Virtually no testing at all -- just the herbs.  It can be way way more cost effective than you'd think.  Has been wonderful for my bunch.

My dog is almost 10 but about 8 months ago, we weren't sure what was wrong with her. She has Cushings, and probably had it for a few years, but the first noticeable sign to us was the drinking (and then quite obviously, the peeing). We did a blood test to be sure as the vet thought it may be diabetes at first. She's been on Vetoryl since she was diagnosed. We started with 30 mg since she's a medium sized dog, then it appeared she was still drinking quite a bit, so we upped it to 60 mg. We've just lowered the dosage to 45 mg, trying to find a happy medium for her. It was very sad to see her get up from her sleep and notice that she had peed her bed. But her symptoms seem to be under control for now. No more pee accidents and not as much drinking. Our vet says we could also give her fish oil tablets to help with her dry skin and fur. It has seemed to help a ton. She gets one fish oil a day and one 45 mg of Vetoryl. A few questions for those Cushing owners: A.) With your Cushing dogs, have you noticed any infections? Her groomer just spotted 2 infections/sores on her, and I'm thinking that's the Cushings symtoms. Has anyone had this and is it a symptom? B) Do your older dogs have poop accidents if they don't have pee accidents? I'm wondering if my girl's stomach doesn't like her medicine sometimes. It's been about 1x a week for the last month. We haven't changed her food, and wonder if we should change to Senior dog food, but wonder if that would upset her stomach as well. Thoughts, advice? C.) Any Cushing dogs have occasional seizures as well? I'm not sure if it's old age or the Cushings, but every few months she has a seizure, not very long, maybe a minute and then she comes out of it. This is scary for me as well, and I'm wondering if any of your furry friends have this along with the Cushings. Just wondering if anyone else is seeing these symptoms.

I would urge you to read my post above -- Vetoryl "maintains" Cushings -- it helps the body 'control' the production of cortisol (rather than Lysodren which actually kills adrenal tissue to thereby 'control' the production of cortisol).  But it can have some fierce side effects over time -- some of those are similiar TO Cushings (like the severe muscle weakness/wasting in the rear legs, etc.)  And be aware that these side effects can generally increase over time.

It can be much safer for the dog to use either TCVM (traditional Chinese veterinary medicine) or homeopathy to control Cushings.  Cushings is a 'body balance" problem -- it's not so much a 'disease as it is the body's inability to regulate itself (and sometimes it is sort of a disease process because it may be a result of long term steroid use). 

 http://www.tcvm.com is the Chi Institute and on the left is a locator.  The herbs just plain don't have the side effects the medicines do and as a long-term thing can truly be helpful. 

A good homeopath can be a **superb** course of action and likely will be even less expensive.  Rather than simply "maintain" the problem, homeopathy actually helps correct the body's "balance" and lessen the need for control.  Before you dismiss this out of hand, please try reading Dr. Martin Goldstein's "The Nature of Animal Healing" -- even if you just stand at a bookstore and read that one part in the book on Cushings it may change your mind.  It's not a 'new' book but it's the best description of how homeopathy works out there.

However, I'll try and answer your questions -- I've had dogs with Cushinoid 'symptoms' who did not have Cushings, so I've had a lot of experience treating the adrenal system, AND I've had one dog who was tested about 8 times for Cushings because he had a long term problem we were monitoring and trying to make sure it didn't slip "into" Cushings.

AmandaK

A few questions for those Cushing owners: A.) With your Cushing dogs, have you noticed any infections? Her groomer just spotted 2 infections/sores on her, and I'm thinking that's the Cushings symtoms. Has anyone had this and is it a symptom?

It's partly the drug, and partly the disease process -- as it's been explained to me by my vet -- yucky skin is part and parcel of Cushings but it's also a symptom of any of the big drugs that help control Cushings, merely because the body sees that sort of medicine -- just as it sees the body's own cortisol -- as a sort of poison and the sore skin is the body's attempt to throw off the poison.  You likely have some thyroid imbalance as well (any time there is too much steroid in the body -- whether it is cortisol from the body itself or something like prednisone - the thyroid will be whacked out and it's almost impossible to get good skin with the thyroid out of balance.)

AmandaK

B) Do your older dogs have poop accidents if they don't have pee accidents? I'm wondering if my girl's stomach doesn't like her medicine sometimes. It's been about 1x a week for the last month. We haven't changed her food, and wonder if we should change to Senior dog food, but wonder if that would upset her stomach as well. Thoughts, advice?

I don't know this for sure, but I'm going to guess that it's likely partly a result of the muscle wasting/weakness that occurs in the hindquarters.  This happens generally in older dogs because the nerve endings in the 'end' of the intestines tend not to work as well so they literally don't 'sense' when they need to go.  It may not wake them up (that's *really* typical) nor even realize that they have passed something.  I've seen more elderly dogs sort of look at it like "Hmmm, WHO left *that* here!".  Bottom line, it's probably a side effect of the Vetoryl because one of the more negative side effects are neural in nature and if it's not a huge amount of poop but just her body not knowing when she's full and needs to go it's a neural side effect of the drug.

f it's a *LOT* of fecal matter or if it is runny or abnormal you'll want to talk to the vet.  *That* -- very loose stool -- is a symptom of Vetoryl directly.  If it's occasional your vet needs to know about it because if it progresses it's a *bad* potentially really really bad side effect.

Apparently Vetoryl is *very* hard on the kidneys -- you see all over the place that if you see a lot of increased thirst and a lot of diarrhea, they then begin to suspect renal failure, so that is one big huge bad side effect & risk long term.

.

AmandaK

C.) Any Cushing dogs have occasional seizures as well? I'm not sure if it's old age or the Cushings, but every few months she has a seizure, not very long, maybe a minute and then she comes out of it.

There can be a lot of neural side effects -- not just Cushings but it's likely a side effect of the Vetoryl for sure. 

With your specific questions I'm going to suggest even more strongly that you seek a TCVM vet.  Particularly if this dog is having seizures -- TCVM is **INCREDIBLE** (sorry, not yelling -- just being enthusiastic) for seizure stuff.  I had an older rescue peke who went from having small seizures **constantly** to this totally normal sweet little dog.  Both acupuncture and the Chinese herbs are incredibly helpful with that and often they don't have to be on seizure drugs *at all*.

Don't misunderstand me -- I am ***not*** suggesting you leave your vet!!!! Not at all!! -- TCVM is considered "complimentary medicne" -- where you simply consult with the TCVM vet for the Cushings and seizure control.  And given what you're spending on the drug itself (and the need for continued testing/bloodwork) you may find it works way better to add in the TCVM vet.  See stuff like acupuncture is just plain part of the TCVM visit - it's not an 'extra' thing.  And generally herbs are way cheaper than medicines. 

I've been really fortunate to have a holistic vet who actually teaches at the Chi Institute.  so I know a lot of the vets and I know a lot about how they work.  The University of Florida at Gainesville actually **teaches** acupuncture and Chinese herbology.  This is not some weirdo "no one does this" thing -- it honestly works.  And it can give you incredible longevity with a problem like this that is considered "fatal but maintainable if treated"