Heartworms and Hookworms

ADog'sBestFriend

Since Joy had been having diarrhea and a little blood, even though it was not as worse as it was before, I was not surprised to find that Joy had hookworms. I got a panacure powder that they gave me that i mix in with some canned food I got that I'm supposed to give to her everyday for three days.  In the next few months they also want to give her another fecal exam to check for hookworms again.

First I need to ask what breed(s) she is again?  Is that her picture?  It makes a huge difference when you're talking about ivermectin.  You can't give ivermectin to many herding breeds, and what I'm going to suggest involves use of ivermectin.

Panacur is one of the drugs they use to treat hook and whip worms.    HOWEVER -- there's also medical opinion out there that says that the use of Heartguard can affect the treatment of hooks/whips with panacur and can make it not work as well.   You definitely will need to do a fecal periodically -- and I'd probably do it sooner rather than later.  Given your circumstances I'd ask to drop off a fecal in about 2 weeks and see if it's clear because of what I'm going to say next.

ADog'sBestFriend

I'm taking care of a dog for two weeks while the family is out of town. The Hookworms will only be contagious to her, and us, through the poop. The Vet told me to make sure they use the restroom in different areas and that we should take care of her poop and wash our hands well afterwards. To make this less contagious to the dog we're taking care of, she is already on heartguard.

There is mis-information here so be careful.  Your dog has already HAD hookworm -- so that means anywhere she has pooped **since she has had it** is NOW **already** contaminated with hookworm and frankly you can *not* ever kill the hookworm in your own yard.  There just isn't anything -- short of removing the sod from your entire yard (along with about 6" of dirt) that will kill the hooks already in your yard.

 That literally means you will have to periodically treat your dog for hookworm pretty much forever.  It's one of the many reasons that I use Interceptor on my dogs -- because that DOES treat for hooks and whips with it's monthly dose -- I *know* I have hooks in my yard and have had for about 12 years.

In honesty -- don't ever go barefoot in your own yard!  Because you can get hooks thru the soles of your own feet if you go barefoot in the yard.

ADog'sBestFriend

Let's say that Joy is at class 1 or 2 for heartworms. How much do you think it would cost all together? Some of you may have experienced it and would know. I need to start earning and saving money!

I wouldn't be using Heartguard -- that is dosed SO low that it likely won't even kill heartworm microfilaria.  This is the first I've heard of a vet treating this way -- and, in fact, there's a lot of flack here in the south that Heartguard and Iverheart are allowing some resistance to ivermectin because the dose is so small. 

If it were *me* (and yes, I've done this before with a dog that was so **Heavily** heartworm positive that they couldn't give her the immiticide) I would be using liquid ivermectin to treat. 

It takes a while -- like 4-6 months of doing the daily small doses of ivermectin and then you take months to "wean off" (because it does cause the immune system to get lazy).  But at the end of a year you will get a clear occult.

Vets like using pre-measured stuff like HeartGuard because they don't have to trust you to dose things.  It's a product they can sell you that is all pre-measured doses. 

But it's expensive.  *very* expensive.  I haven't used HeartGuard  ever.  For monthly preventive of heartworm I use Interceptor (which is milbemycin). 

But even weekly doses of HearGuard  will be a bit pricey and then typically the Immiticide (dpeending on where you live and what your vet charges) can be anywhere from $400 to $800.

You could treat the whole thing for one bottle of Ivomec for about $40. 

To explain a bit.

 Ivermectin is used to kill *any* blood-feasting parasite -- simply by changing the dose to a higher dose you can actually treat for anything from heartworm microfilaria to hookworm, whip worm, lung worm, sarcoptic mange mites and they even use it in *huge* doses to treat demodectic mange (which is a whole different thing).

But in your case you can't use it to kill the hookworm because that would involve a dose **too high** for your dog to safely tolerate while it is heartworm positive.

But it's been done a lot here in the South -- to treat with small doses of ivermectin (the dose for heartworm microfilaria is like 1/100 of the dose for sarcoptic mange mites and it's like less than 1/10 the dose you'd use to treat for hookworm).  The way I did it was to give the dose daily -- others have done it weekly, and there are other regimens out there as well.  But do it for about 4-5 months  and over that period of time it not only kills the heartworm microfilaria on a daily basis but it ultimtately sterilizes the adult heartworm and eventually kills them.

ok -- why the gradual thing?  And why is it possible for the dog to "have a reaction" to just giving the Heartguard?

Have you see the gross-looking bottle of formaldehyde at the vets with a heart with heartworms in it??  When a dog has heartworm it looks like big pieces of cooked spaghetti in the heart -- but remember -- those big pieces of spaghetti are IN the bloodstream.  So the big caution is -- ANYTIME YOU TREAT FOR HEARTWORM -- whatever 'dies' has to then be re-absorbed by the body. 

 So this is why they have always insisted on an "annual test" for heartworm *before* giving heartworm preventive.  Because even the heartworm microfilaria (which are microscopic) can be so numerous that when THEY die in massive quantities they can actually clog the liver, kidneys and cause blood clots to then form around them which can cause a stroke or heart attack.

When they actually treat with the Immiticide they are trying to kill the adult heartworms -- those BIG pieces of spaghetti like stuff.  But remember -- those are IN the bloodvessels.  So when you kill something it dies and then decays right??  That happens IN the bloodstream -- so when those big adult heartworms die (and any little maturing ones) and they pass thru the heart (which is a huge muscle that opens and closes much like a fist??) --

Think for a minute what would happen if you took a handfull of cooked spaghetti in your hand -- then you opened and shut your fist as hard as you could for a minute.  What would that look like??  Pieces and mushy white stuff in your hand right??

Ok -- now envision that sailing thru the bloodstream after it leaves the heart.  The body has to re-absorb ALL of that -- it's not in the digestive tract to be carried away as "poop" -- it's in the BLOOD.  It's going to wind up in all parts oft he body - including the brain.  And it's going to circulate thru the blood until the body re-absorbs it.  (like being filtered out in the kidneys/liver so it can be carried away as waste).

But this is why they want you to bring him in for overnight when you start the treatment and this is also why the full-blown heartworm/Immiticide treatment is SO critical that it be done with the dog on crate-rest for about 3 months -- because you **must** keep them sedentary while the body is trying to re-absorb all the bits and pieces of the dead heartworms or you'll lose the dog.

I hope this is co-herent - I've been working on this sporadically since 1:00

calliecritturs

ADog'sBestFriend

Since Joy had been having diarrhea and a little blood, even though it was not as worse as it was before, I was not surprised to find that Joy had hookworms. I got a panacure powder that they gave me that i mix in with some canned food I got that I'm supposed to give to her everyday for three days.  In the next few months they also want to give her another fecal exam to check for hookworms again.

First I need to ask what breed(s) she is again?  Is that her picture?  It makes a huge difference when you're talking about ivermectin.  You can't give ivermectin to many hearding breeds, and what I'm going to suggest involves use of ivermectin.

 Callie provided a lot of excellent info on HW treatment.

 Just wanted to clarify that the Ivermectin issue is an issue with breeds in the same "family" as Rough/Smooth Collies. So in addition the Collies, Shelties, Aussies, English Shepherds, Old English Sheepdogs, McNabs may be affected. Also one sighthound breed which traces back to Shelties can also be affected - the Silken Windhound. Even if you dog is one of these breeds, he may or may not be affected with the mutation that causes Ivermectin sensitivity. There is a pretty easy test to determine if your dog can safely use Ivermectin or not. For more info:

http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-vcpl/breeds.aspx

  Good thoughts for a complication free  HW recovery!

   Joy is a Jack Russell Terrier/Beagle mix. Yes, that is her picture.

 Thankyou for sparing your time for me. :)

    On what the vets told me, and which they showed me (I'll show you a link), Heartgard does kill the microfilariae, L3, and L4 larvae. Interceptor will also work, but is much more powerful and will therefore kill them faster and will more likely cause the dog to go into shock. My vets told me that this treatment plan has only failed once in the past 11 years at their vet. Why not use Heartgard if it works just as well as any other? Its less expensive also. About 7 dollars a month.

   Here's the link to some of the information my vet gave me; it also says some good things about ivermectin. Although I am not sure that you can click it so you'll have to copy and paste or letter for letter. Not sure.

 http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&C=&A=610&SourceID=42

   Honestly, my dog has never pooped in my yard. I always take her somewhere else where there are lots of trees and tall grass. She likes to go potty in tall grass. I live in Mississippi, where there are a lot of trees and mostly country so I don't have to worry about neighbors complaining. Although it is very likely that there has been a dog that has gone potty in my yard, and might have been effected by hook worms. It might be better for me to wear shoes when outside any way.

   My vet told me that I should get her fecal exam in a month. The hook panacure powder will only be given to her for three days, till the next few weeks. They also told me what you told me, to get the more gradual treatment; more shots, the less killing each one will do, the less risk of the dog going into shock.

  Thank you for your help!

ADog'sBestFriend

Heartgard does kill the microfilariae, L3, and L4 larvae.

HeartGuard is designed to be given to a dog within a certain "range" of weight -- and I'm not sure exactly lwhich of the weights in the range it is targeted -- but the dose is FAR smaller than the original PDR recommended ranges because they have wanted to be able to market to ALL breeds of dogs -- not just those not sensitive to ivermectin.  So over the past several years they have decreased the dose again and again in order to avoid reactions.

The problem is -- it is failing -- it is NOT killing microfilaria as targeted (much less the larval stage) but rather the Heartworm microfilaria are *surviving* the ivermectin and becoming resistant to it.  (in essence building super microfilaria)

That's exactly my point of "why not" -- because it's being found NOT to work, particularly here in the south where heartworm is so incredibly prevalent.  Particularly in the wake of Katrina when rescues across the South were slammed with heartworm positive dogs people were told and have assumed that the dog they took was heartworm free and they started them on HeartGuard only to find out months later the dog IS positive.

My point is it's not just cheaper -- it's the fact that the dose given of the liquid ivermectin is likely more effective than using the HeartGuard.

It would be interesting to know WHEN this failure occurred -- and I'd be willing to bet it was recently or they'd just say 'it hasn't failed in x years"

ADog'sBestFriend

My vets told me that this treatment plan has only failed once in the past 11 years at their vet.  Why not use Heartgard if it works just as well as any other?

But that's exactly my point -- it does *not* work as well as the liquid ivermectin.  It's dosed too low to be fully effective. 

Ivermectin is designed to be used at different amounts for different paracites.  The lowest dose is for heartworm "preventive" (which is simply supposed to kill all heartworm microfilaria in the body on the day it's given).  But the dose used for various parasites increases from there. 

But several years ago when it became known that ivermectin could be lethal to certain breeds, they changed how they dosed it **SPECIFICALLY SO** it would be tolerated even by those breeds sensitive to it at a super low dose.

Please understand I am ****not**** suggesting you use Interceptor for this!!!!! -- for exactly the reason your vet said -- because it's a far more broad-spectrum pesticide and it would kill not just microfilaria but also the hookworm AND likely the adult heartworm -- which would be DANGEROUS.  

I simply said I use Interceptor for my dogs heartworm preventive -- **because** it also works on hooks and whips and I *know* they are in my yard.  But I also know my dogs are *not* heartworm positive.

I understand I'm disagreeing with your vet -- but I've also got a huge history with dealing with both heartworm positive dogs AND with ivermectin and it's various uses (and dogs sensitive to it).  A lot of my experience is simply personal experience I have in treating this.  And I know a LOT of people who have tried using HeartGuard to kill the microfilaria who have had it fail miserably. 

.The Immiticide is dangerous -- doing the whole treatment by liquid ivermectin "the slow way" works -- and it is less dangerous in my own experience.  The fact that the cost is a fraction of the Immiticide treatment is a really nice side benefit as well.  But I've brought dogs so terribly positive that they couldn't even TAKE the immiticide thru the treatment and have gotten a totally clear occult test (meaning NO adult heartworm and no microfilaria found at all). 

    I know a lot of people who treat their dogs with heartgard. Their dogs do not have heartworms because they use heartgard. They live in the south just as I do; South Mississippi. When Katrina hit I lived in New Orleans, Louisiana where the eye of the storm was, and yes I'm sure there was a lot of heartworm positive dogs. When you said that they were told that the dog that they were taking was not heartworm positive, and just assumed, well, I'm not sure that I'm getting your point. If they had heartworms before they got the dog, Of course Heartgard won't kill the worms! Just the microfilaria etc.!

   This is how heartgard works: you give it to your dog once a month. That one dosage will kill all of the microfilaria etc. It will not kill the ones that might come in the next month. But before the microfilaria gets to strong to treat with heartgard (takes over 1 month), you give it the next heartworm dosage to kill those, and so on.

    Your idea for what treatment very well might be more effective. But it doesn't have to be that effective. As long as the treatment kills all the microfilariae, L3 and the L4 larvae before they get to strong, that is all you need to prevent.

     I'm gald you are not suggesting I use Interceptor as you understand what I said about that.

    - With all kindness and respect, ADog'sBestFriend

ADog'sBestFriend

heartgard is ivermectin-based so it will kill the young hookworms and other worms just as well. If you look up the ingredients for heartgard, in all weights, (up to 100 pnds plus) the active ingredient is ivermectin. :)

The effective ingredient IS ivermectin, but the dosage (the actual mg/kg of drug) is low, so that it's safe for herding dogs. I give my dogs Ivomec cattle wormer, and the dose that they take is much more than what the box says, but it is VERY safe, and was the original dose for heartworm prevention. The reason they don't market it in this dosage is because certain Collie breeds have an MRD1 gene mutation and do not tolerate ivermectin well. It is cheaper, by far, to use the cattle wormer.

    So jennie_c_d, in your opinion, is heartgard a good preventive for dogs that aren't the herding type?  Is a Jack-a-bee (Beagle/Jack russell terrier) a herding dog? I don't think so but I'm not sure.

No, JRTs are terriers, and Beagles are hounds. You're safe, there. Personally, I don't use Heartguard, because it does fail in my area. I have personally known dogs who DIED from heartworm treatment after being given Heartguard every month, on the month.

   That's strange. Why would they die from what you said was a low dosage?

They died from heartworm treatment, when the supposed preventative dose failed to prevent heartworms, and they became infested.

   So they died because of the heartworms, because the heartworm preventive treatment failed to prevent. Right?

Well, this all sounds weird to me. Weirdly, I've never seen or heard of a dog ever react negatively to heartgard.

   At least where I live, heartgard works. I'll do as my vet said, and will see how she does. Thank you for helping me! Now I know that it wouldn't be that weird if the heartgard didn't work. But It very well might work, but I would never know until I tried it. :)

Yes, they died of heartworms that the preventative failed to prevent.

My personal dog, the late, great, Emma Nems, reacted negatively to Heartguard, and to generic ivermectin. She had a host of health issues, and cluster seizured if she was given pesticides orally. She also cluster seizured for 5 days, after her last rabies vaccine.

ADog'sBestFriend

heartgard is ivermectin-based so it will kill the young hookworms and other worms just as well. If you look up the ingredients for heartgard, in all weights, (up to 100 pnds plus) the active ingredient is ivermectin. :)

HeartGuard uses ivermectin -- yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.  But NO, HeartGuard will not kill hookworm nor whipworm -- because the doseage is too low (the dose to kill hooks and whips is just about 10 times stronger than the PDR - Physician's Desk Reference for veterinary use -- dose for heartworm microfilaria.

I tried to be clear above -- ivermectin will kill ANY blood feasting parasite -- but different parasites require different dosages.  The dose for heartworm microfilaria is the lowest of all the published doses.  At higher doses ivermectin does kill other types of micorfilaria, roundworms, hookworm, whipworm, lungworm, and even sarcoptic mange mites.  All at increasingly stronger doses.  But the dose for hooks/whips is literally about 10 times (actually a bit more than) the dose that heartworm microfilaria require.  HeartGuard doesn't *claim* to kill hooks and whips.  Only Intercepter claims that (because it is safer for all breeds so it is dosed far higher). 

What Jennie and I are saying is that the way the HeartGuard people are now dosing the ivermectin in their packaged product is LOWER than the published dose chart, so it is far less effective. 

Neither of us are disputing that HeartGuard uses ivermectin.  It does!  What we're saying is that the dose of ivermectin they are using now in their product is too low to always be effective. 

Vets tend to have companies they favor -- and some vets like to use HeartGuard as the only chewable and other vets use both HeartGuard and Interceptor.

I just felt it was important that you knew that it's becoming increasingly well known that HeartGuard is failing, and for me, it would be an unacceptable to treat with HeartGuard prior to the Immiticide -- .  Now if the vet was going to use straight ivermectin and dose it according to the PDR prior to treatment by the Immiticide -- that would be a good plan, especially if you have the money to opt for the immiticide treatment.  There's another thread on here that's a couple of months old where one of the ladies discovered that she's been using HeartGuard faithfully for a long time and two of her dogs have come up as heartworm positive despite faithful HeartGuard use.

I hope this clarifies.  I'm not trying to be ratty or nasty, and honestly I'm just trying to be helpful.

 ... but it's an unusual protocol your vet is using and if it were me, I would want to know HeartGuard is failing particularly since it's not a good option for you to use AFTER the immiticide (because you will need to be doubly vigilant that the dog not become positive again -- the Immiticide is HARD on the body).  It takes several months to complete the treatment and you have to keep the dog **extremely ** sedentary the entire duration of the treatment.

 I know that heartgard will not KILL hooks and other worms, it will just kill the younger worms that CAN be killed with heartgard. That's all you need to prevent. Anyways, it seems that it works some places (like where I live) and fails on others, like yours.  At my vet, as i had already said, this heartgard has only failed once in 11 years. 

Because Immiticide is more expensive, with all these prices coming at me for defining the what kind of deworming shots and the actual deworming shots, I think Heartgard would fit me better, concerning the price also. And it works around where I live.

   But thank you anyways, you are being helpful. :)

I took Joy to the vet today for her first heartgard. We will see how she does. :)