Not fully neutered or something else?

outdoorschik

He freaked out when he realized he was "stuck".

Poor Oliver!  I hope it wasn't too traumatic for him and that the "fun" was worth the trauma. 

outdoorschik

I am one hundred percent sure he's neutered as I had it done!

It doesn't happen very often, but more than one vet has missed a testicle that didn't descend.  Abnormal physiology makes surgery tricky.

Normal dogs have two testicles that both descend.  Abnormal dogs may have only one testicle or more than two testicles.  Any of those testicles may not descend.

janet_rose

Normal dogs have two testicles that both descend.  Abnormal dogs may have only one testicle or more than two testicles.  Any of those testicles may not descend

It never occured to me that he could have an undescended third testicle, hmm, well I'll certainly watch this closely there is no need for Oliver pups, that's for sure. I wonder what the incidence of a third testicle is?

He couldn't have been too traumatized as he attempted to follow her around until I put them both in down-stay's with a bully stick to chew on! I certainly don't need him thinking this is a good behavior with the sled dogs  lol :) In the five years I've been in sled dogs I've never seen this occur. Several experienced mushers had not seen it either, but I did talk with another at the time who told me it can happen with neutered dogs. I was just surprsed as Oliver was neutered at 5+ months. You learn something new everyday!

 Retained testicles do not  produce puppies, according to my understanding. I could be way wrong, though....

outdoorschik

I wonder what the incidence of a third testicle is?

I am sure it is very rare.

outdoorschik

I was just surprsed as Oliver was neutered at 5+ months. You learn something new everyday!

I guess they are born knowning what to do, but most neutered dogs just have no desire (enough testosterone?) to do it.

There are even bigger surprises in the area of sexuality.  Just imagine how surprised some human "females" are to discover that they are genetically male.  These males can't properly process testosterone. 

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003269.htm
"If the process that causes this fetal tissue to become "male" or "female" is disrupted, ambiguous genitalia can develop. This genitalia makes it difficult to classify the infant as male or female. The extent of the ambiguity varies. In very rare instances, the physical appearance may be fully developed as the opposite of the genetic sex. For example, a genetic male may have developed the appearance of a normal female."

Even stranger are "chimera".  Those are individuals who have two different sets of DNA in their body.  Their blood DNA and sperm/egg DNA can actually be different.  One set of DNA can be male and the other female.

This has resulted in a parent's custody being challenged because they are erronously found not to be the biological parent of their own child.  Imagine being the mother of a child that was natural conceived and being told that you are not the "real" mother, but that your husband is the real father.  Imagine being told that you must have fathered two children by two different women and that the babies must have been switched at birth. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)
"Chimeras are formed from four parent cells (two fertilized eggs or early embryos fused together) or from three parent cells (a fertilized egg is fused with an unfertilized egg or a fertilized egg is fused with an extra sperm). Each population of cells keeps its own character and the resulting animal is a mixture of tissues. ...

The likelihood of offspring being a chimera is increased if it is created via in vitro fertilization. Chimeras can often breed, but the fertility and type of offspring depends on which cell line gave rise to the ovaries or testes; varying degrees of intersexuality may result if one set of cells is genetically female and another genetically male."

jennie_c_d

Retained testicles do not  produce puppies, according to my understanding.

I assume you mean "Retained testicles do not produce live sperm", but this is not true in all cases.  It would depend on the actual location of the retained testicle(s).  The higher the temperature of that location the less likely the testicle would be to produce live sperm. 

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2109&aid=897
"Cryptorchidism: Undescended Testicles in the Dog ...

In mammals, sperm development does not occur correctly at the high temperatures found within the body. The testicles are therefore held outside of the abdomen and within the scro*tum to provide a cooler environment. The production of testosterone is usually not influenced by temperature.  ...

These animals rarely show any abnormalities because of this condition. They have normal activity levels, growth, and behavior. Although fertility may be affected, they will usually show normal breeding behavior and frequently impregnate females, especially when one of the testicles has descended into the scro*tum."

There is a blood test that can be run to determine testosterone levels. It uses an injection of HCG (Human Chorionic Gonadothophin) and two blood draws, then testing at a lab- http://www.ivis.org/advances/Concannon/memon/ivis.pdf . We brought a sweet, non-aggressive boy into our pack a few weeks ago.  He was cryptorcid but said to have been successfully neutered.  His behaviors though are obsessive with other dogs (spayed/neutered). The test indicates his testosterone level is about 25x higher than the highest level for a neutered male.  He's not yet 2 years old so the conclusion at this point is that there is testicular tissue somewhere inside him.  Now we've got to figure out the best way to find it.

ThePack

He's not yet 2 years old so the conclusion at this point is that there is testicular tissue somewhere inside him.  Now we've got to figure out the best way to find it.

Good luck!!  Let us know if you find out how to find the tissue.  I am very curious to know if there is something besides exploratory surgery that can locate the tissue. 

Some of you will remember that Theo's testicals never descended.  Both were in his abdomen, one piggy backing a kidney.  This nueter was much more like a spay because of this, a real "search and destroy" mission.

Just a quick update- 

He was still intact and was neutered for a second time on Wednesday.  The vet had to do a laparotomy so he's sporting maybe a 3" incision in front of his penis. The blood supply was followed up to nicely formed undescended testicle which was found in the inguinal area about 5 minutes into the surgery. 

With his first neuter at 7 1/2 months of age, he had three incisions... one in the normal sack area (if I use the proper term it comes up as *** in the preview :) and two off to the side. His mom had taken a picture shortly after his first surgery which was over a year ago... this assisted the second vet with the second surgery.  She was told the retained testicle had been found/removed and that it was very small.  Maybe a lymph node had been removed instead or maybe he had three testicles... we'll never know. 

There is said to be an increased risk of cancer if an undescended testicle is left in a dog.  But this sweet boy also shows us that a family may be left with obsessive intact-male behaviors as a cryptorchid puppy comes of age which can result in a dog loosing his home... all because he wasn't successfully neutered. 

If in doubt, request a testosterone test... the HCG test proved accurate.

ThePack

He was still intact and was neutered for a second time on Wednesday. 

I am glad that the remaining testicle was found!  Hope his recovery is swift.

ThePack

There is said to be an increased risk of cancer if an undescended testicle is left in a dog. 

My sister lost her supposedly "neutered" cryptorchid dog to testicular cancer.  I sure wish his marking behavior had prompted her to question the rescue group's statement and to do a testosterone test.  Surgery at 2-years-old would have prevented his death at 6-years-old. 

What was especially strange about this dog was that his tumors were producing estrogen and the dog developed very large nipples. 

Frankly after my sister's experience, I think I would test any male dog I adopted for testosterone levels - after a neuter or when adopted if supposedly already neutered. 

janet_rose

My sister lost her supposedly "neutered" cryptorchid dog to testicular cancer.  I sure wish his marking behavior had prompted her to question the rescue group's statement and to do a testosterone test.  Surgery at 2-years-old would have prevented his death at 6-years-old.

 

What was especially strange about this dog was that his tumors were producing estrogen and the dog developed very large nipples.

 

Frankly after my sister's experience, I think I would test any male dog I adopted for testosterone levels - after a neuter or when adopted if supposedly already neutered. 

Mounting is actually unlikely to be related to "dominance":

http://www.dogsincanada.com/oh-behave-love-and-mounting

 Also his mounting could be related to early altering:

:The study that identified a higher incidence of cranial cruciate ligament rupture in spayed or neutered dogs also identified an increased incidence of sexual behaviors in males and females that were neutered early.(5) Further, the study that identified a higher incidence of hip dysplasia in dogs neutered or spayed before 5 1/2 months also showed that early age gonadectomy was associated with an increased incidence of noise phobias and undesirable sexual behaviors.(6) A recent report of the American Kennel Club Canine Health Foundation reported significantly more behavioral problems in spayed and neutered bitches and dogs. The most commonly observed behavioral problem in spayed females was fearful behavior and the most common problem in males was aggression.(12) "

That's amusing, Agile. Em was spayed the earliest of all the dogs I've had, and had ALL of those issues. She was a marker, humper, fear aggressive, noise phobias, and she was incontinent. She was spayed at 8 weeks, and lived only 6 years:(

AgileGSD

Mounting is actually unlikely to be related to "dominance":

http://www.dogsincanada.com/oh-behave-love-and-mounting

 Also his mounting could be related to early altering:

:The study that identified a higher incidence of cranial cruciate ligament rupture in spayed or neutered dogs also identified an increased incidence of sexual behaviors in males and females that were neutered early.(5) Further, the study that identified a higher incidence of hip dysplasia in dogs neutered or spayed before 5 1/2 months also showed that early age gonadectomy was associated with an increased incidence of noise phobias and undesirable sexual behaviors.(6) A recent report of the American Kennel Club Canine Health Foundation reported significantly more behavioral problems in spayed and neutered bitches and dogs. The most commonly observed behavioral problem in spayed females was fearful behavior and the most common problem in males was aggression.(12) "

http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

Ugh great, I wish he hadn't been neutered so early I don't want him to have issues. :( He does get frightened by new noises but I can easily show him that it's nothing to be scared of. I really hate the shelter for neutering him so young. I get why they did it but still. :-/  Thanks for the info!

janet_rose

punkchica321

I'm not sure why I never got emails for these updates.

Every time you visit the thread be sure that you have "Post Notification: On".  This is on the line just above the top post.

YES!! AND THIS IS THE WORST THING THAT HAPPENED TO THIS FORUM WHEN IT CHANGED OVER. I really wish they could change that fact because I try to always make sure its on ON but 1. it jumps around ..sometimes I click on it too fast.   2. Sometimes you just forget.  But i the end...its hard to keep on on this forum anymore because of it.

THAT scares me that a neutered dog could get stuck in a female.  At the vet we had a few that needed help to unstick himself.......but never got any calls about a neutered dog in a female.....  That is bothersome.