Emergency Spaying while in heat!?!?

 for what it is worth, I don't think it sounded like a pyo..(at least, very few pyos that I have seen have involved heavy bleeding..pus, yes, sometimes funky discharge, but not usually bleeding) BUT, I do think something seemed very wrong (as I said, heavy bleeding and clotting just isn't normal. I aso assume that after 11 years, they knew what her normal seasons were like, so heading off to the vet had to mean it was alarming to them as well) so I would have leaned more towards a problem with the uterus such as a cancer, tumors, etc. I'd be interested to hear what the uterus looked like..if it was abnormal looking, etc.

But, I do think that the fact that a vet suggested operating on an elderly dog in a season, means it was serious in their minds. There is so much increased bleeding during that time, that most vets will not do so unless it is an urgent situation. I have never met a vet who operates on an in season dog for funsies.

Yes, pyos can be treated with antibiotics (or attempted) but spaying is most common.  Certainly if the infection is a one time thing and someone plans on breeding, I can see attempting the medication. But, I can't imagine a surgery risk would be any worse than repeated antibiotics or risk of repeated infection after every season. What an unpleasant thing for a dog.That's just my one opinion though.

I don't know anything about this stuff, John.  But, I really hope your friends little dog is doing OK!! 

John, I have a feeling this was simply one of those sad things that happens -- do ask your friend if the vet did vax at the time of the spay. (or even a couple of months prior) - I'd almost  bet there's more "triggering" the IMHA than just the spay -- but pyo itself likely could.  I'd wonder at what Dr. Dodds would say -- but the other thing I'd ask your friend is what antibiotics they gave.  The spay would truly be something that would usually be done.

 Speaking from a place of personal experience with pyometra, I can say that it is one of the most scariest things I have ever gone through. I spent every minute, every decision in agony as I watched Piper. Her case came about after a miscarriage. There have been conflicting vet opinions of whether her problem was normal discharge after losing the litter vs it being pyometra. Either way, other than the discharge and being slightly 'off', there were no other symptoms of fever or lethargy. Her cervix was open, so the contents of her uterus was able to be discharged. Had her cervix not been open, the outcome would have been much different. In closed pyometra, the pus builds up until the infection spills into the bloodstream causing sepsis &/or the uterus ruptures from the infection. Most times, the cases of closed pyo are not found until the dog is on deaths door, and then all you can do is pray that she is strong enough to survive the surgery.

There are new treatments for open pyometra, though unless there is real reason to keep the dog intact, spaying is still the best option. The treatment is rough on the dog, not to mention expensive - and there is no guarantee that it will work and that you still won't have to spay. Not to mention, the dog MUST be bred the next heat cycle and then spayed because there is no cure for pyo - the infection is always there and the chance for it coming back is huge.  I have to say though, finding a vet knowledgeable and willing to perform the new protocol is not easy. I can avow to that. The first reaction from any vet with pyo is spay, and spay now. Pyometra is not something to be taken lightly, whether it is open or closed, in a young dog or an older one. It is life threatening. For every heat a bitch goes through, there is the chance of pyometra. An intact bitch is a huge responsibility in more than keeping her safe while in heat from an unplanned breeding, you have to deal with (the chance of) pyo as well.

With the dog in question, whether it was pyo or something else, the vet felt it necessary to spay her. That in and of itself speaks volumes. Vets are so reluctant to spay during a heat. With her age on top of it, I'm sure it was difficult for everyone involved. The resultant AIHA/IMHA could very well be due to an underlying cause or just from the very fact that her body was so ramped up to fight an infection that it turned on itself. I know more than I want to on the body's immune system turning on itself - I suffer from multiple immune related diseases and to say that it sucks is an understatement. Sometimes finding out what triggered the body to turn on itself is just not possible. An overamped immune system can mistakenly turn on itself in an effort to kill invading bodies. Her age, her condition, the surgery, the anesthesia - who knows what triggered it. I hope that she and her owners can get through this though.

stardancnminpin

  Not to mention, the dog MUST be bred the next heat cycle and then spayed because there is no cure for pyo - the infection is always there and the chance for it coming back is huge.  I have to say though, finding a vet knowledgeable and willing to perform the new protocol is not easy.

  A friend of mine had a dog treated for Pyo (using the protocol in the article I posted) but didn't end up breeding her. That dog never developed pyo again but she was spayed after having a few heat cycles. One thing I find interesting is that this friend has had pyo in nearly every intact bitch she has owned and is maybe the only person I know who has had multiple bitches over the course of many years who developed pyo.

stardancnminpin

An intact bitch is a huge responsibility in more than keeping her safe while in heat from an unplanned breeding, you have to deal with (the chance of) pyo as well.

 And with spayed bitches there is still the chance of stump pyo, which is uncommon but does happen. 

grab01

But, I can't imagine a surgery risk would be any worse than repeated antibiotics or risk of repeated infection after every season. What an unpleasant thing for a dog.That's just my one opinion though.

 With the dogs I mentioned, surgery was not an option - due to other unrelated health issues they very likely would not have survived it.

calliecritturs

John, I have a feeling this was simply one of those sad things that happens -- do ask your friend if the vet did vax at the time of the spay. (or even a couple of months prior) - I'd almost  bet there's more "triggering" the IMHA than just the spay -- but pyo itself likely could.

stardancnminpin

With the dog in question, whether it was pyo or something else, the vet felt it necessary to spay her. That in and of itself speaks volumes. Vets are so reluctant to spay during a heat. With her age on top of it, I'm sure it was difficult for everyone involved. The resultant AIHA/IMHA could very well be due to an underlying cause or just from the very fact that her body was so ramped up to fight an infection that it turned on itself. I know more than I want to on the body's immune system turning on itself - I suffer from multiple immune related diseases and to say that it sucks is an understatement. Sometimes finding out what triggered the body to turn on itself is just not possible. An overamped immune system can mistakenly turn on itself in an effort to kill invading bodies. Her age, her condition, the surgery, the anesthesia - who knows what triggered it. I hope that she and her owners can get through this though.

VERY well said -- it's so sad that this poor dog has to endure quite so much -- IMHA is such a dire, horrible disease and the meds for THAT are just unreal ... and trying to then deal with the after-effects of the pyo must be incredible (especially since IMHA can be so triggered by meds, etc.)

***THANKS YOU GUYS*** for explaining about "open" vs closed pyometra -- I figured it had to do with sepsis on one hand but I wasn't quite sure which and your explanations are good. 

AgileGSD

stardancnminpin

  Not to mention, the dog MUST be bred the next heat cycle and then spayed because there is no cure for pyo - the infection is always there and the chance for it coming back is huge.  I have to say though, finding a vet knowledgeable and willing to perform the new protocol is not easy.

  A friend of mine had a dog treated for Pyo (using the protocol in the article I posted) but didn't end up breeding her. That dog never developed pyo again but she was spayed after having a few heat cycles. One thing I find interesting is that this friend has had pyo in nearly every intact bitch she has owned and is maybe the only person I know who has had multiple bitches over the course of many years who developed pyo.

stardancnminpin

An intact bitch is a huge responsibility in more than keeping her safe while in heat from an unplanned breeding, you have to deal with (the chance of) pyo as well.

 And with spayed bitches there is still the chance of stump pyo, which is uncommon but does happen.

I just wanted to comment, that my reply was based on my experience with Piper and my interactions with the reproductive vet (a very highly respected specialist I might add). The 'must breed on next heat' was something that was conveyed to me on more than one occasion. I understand why they stressed it, and frankly, if the dog isn't going to be bred, then why not spay? I know there are instances where a dog can not be anesthetized, but the stress of the pyo, the treatment, and any further heats just seems a lot to put a dog through that isn't going to be bred.

(I feel) Breeding dogs isn't just about being responsible in furthering the breed, but to the individual dog as well. Having just gone through my first (successful) breeding and resultant litter, I can say it is a huge task. We all preach responsibility on this forum, and the burden of that responsibility is overwhelming at times. I love my dogs. They are my pets first, my show dogs second, and my foundation stock third. Sometimes the goal and dreams of breeding your own dogs clashes with what is best for the dog's health. It is not a task to be taken lightly, and frankly I can understand why so many people who start showing dogs for a hobby may only breed one or two litters. When Piper miscarried, there was much soul searching, praying, and questioning of mentors and vets before a plan of action was formed. I changed plans to make sure that Piper was able to be bred her next heat. It was only fair to her, for what she had been through, that I followed through with a breeding to make sure she didn't get sick again. It was best for her. That was my responsibility to her for what I wanted from her. Animal husbandry is about respect. Life is about respect.

I'm not saying this to attack anyone's position, but to explain mine. Pyometra is such a horrible condition. I wish more (pet) owners of intact females would be more aware of it's toll on the body. I'd be curious if the woman with multiple females with pyo were all of the same blood line? Genetics vs environmental and all that. :) Another hobby of mine, genetics.

While this information is informative for pyometra cases, the dog in the OP hasn't been formally diagnosed with pyo has it? Or did I miss that the vet had given it as a definitive diagnosis? How is she doing?

Johnny,

I'd also check to see what testing they did to confirm the IMHA--given the blood loss before (and potentially during) the surgery, she may be showing symptoms of low crit etc. that are a result of blood loss and a whacked out immune system from whatever caused the bleeding, etc. Is she regenerative or non-regenerative? Not to doubt--but the poor pup has been through so much. Now, that said--if it is IMHA, I hope the pup can manage the treatment protocol after that really hard surgery, etc. We know first hand how hard it is when they haven't had to deal with that type of trauma to the body--I can't imagine dealing with IMHA on top of that--for the dog or the owner! I don't know if Frisby could have made it through that! Hugs and positive healing energy to your friend and her pup.

I'm not overly sure what caused the bleeding OR the anemia.  The doc hasn't said anything about Pyometra so uncertain if that's the cause or not.  This is somebody I'm helping online who is strapped for cash...which sucks cause she's only an hour outside Michigan State!!!  Her current doctor is a real idiot without a braincell to spare....I could REALLY punch some of these doctors in the head.  There's just not enough info to speculate or comment for now.  I've just been trying to help her figure this all out.  I've been suspecting hemorrhagic anemia but again...can't be certain.

FrisbyPI

Is she regenerative or non-regenerative?

She's borderline.  The retics got as high as 60,000 at the last test from 24,000 but hasn't been checked in a few weeks!  I did a corrected calculation for her and the % came to approx 1.2 ...so you know how it is.  Her doctor doesn't seem to think the small things like hematinics or checking the thyroid is needed....and thinks that adding low dose thyroid supplement is "stupid" and does nothing to stimulate the marrow ... so what do you do right.  I feel if I suggest somehting like anabolic steroids the doc would probably think she's nuts!

I've been pretty stressed out lately so sorry for not getting back sooner.  Lot's on the plate lately.  These F***ing dumba$$ doctors really don't help!