anyone have experience with seizures in dogs?

Yes, actually I have -- my Kee Shu had some pretty severe what I'll call "petit mal" seizures that were almost constant.  Ultimately we got them 100% under control simply via herbs. 

IThe sad fact is that once you start phenobarbitol or potassium bromide (or ANY seizure drug) they are instantly addictive.  Then you have a hard time EVER getting them off the drugs (and all these drugs have horrible long-term side effects).

At the University of Florida they strongly recommend and treat with herbs & acupuncture FIRST (Traditional Chinese Veterinary Medicine) -- THEN if you can't get the seizures under control with herbs, acupuncture and diet **then** investigate drugs.  Yes this is actually a state vet school that teaches this (and they teach acupuncture and Chinese herbology AT the school).

When we first had Kee Shu she was a mass of strung out repetitive behaviors and you could barely get her to ever snap out of them.  She just wasn't even on this planet most of the time.  But even with such chronic and dominating (altho low grade in severity) seizures she STILL responded incredibly well to the TCVM.  She was on one herb that is actually VERY similar (but without the side effects) to phenobarbitol.  It just didn't have the side effects pheno had. 

Please -- do NOT let them put Misty on a seizure drug ... not now.  Please explore other options. 

http://www.tcvm.com -- that's the Chi Institute website -- on the left is a locator (by state and zip code).  If you want, holler and I can help you figure out who might be best for you.  But please try that before you use drugs. 

There are others on here with experience -- the first person I'd tell you to talk to is SLR2Meg -- Pirate's Mom.  She was faced with exactly this decision -- but Pirate's seizures scared her to death.  She later wished she had approached it holistically from the start.  She can tell you better than I can.

I was reading some old posts, and I'm wondering something....could certain metals cause this to happen?  The reason I ask is, in the past if we let her sniff a bobby pin or paper clip, she does that teeth chattering thing.  We thought it was sort of funny/silly looking, but try our best not to let those things fall unaccounted for.  Unfortunately with 6 people in the house, four of whom are kids ranging from 5-18, often times things will make it to the floor unnoticed. She was licking that paper clip really thoroughly when I took it away and it was right after that, that the first episode occurred.  I'm thinking something triggered a response in her.  This evening, my husband and I had been arguing about 15 minutes before the second episode, and I know she doesn't like it when things get tense (hides) so perhaps that triggered a second response.

sigh...just looking for some answers. I'm willing to try anything so it doesn't happen again. I may try to dig that paper clip out of the trash also, and have our chemist friend analyze it for specific chemicals.  Off for a 3rd night on the couch so I can be near her if there's an issue. (first two nights were because of my husband and myself having a stomach bug)

Callie, I want to avoid the drugs....I will buy her the most expensive foods and herbs I can. I don't know who in the area would even do accupuncture on a dog, and I'm not sure I could even afford it...but I can certainly look into it.  I am seriously thinking that licking on that paper clip did something....maybe it sounds crazy, I don't know?  I had forgotten too, that she was terribly allergic to frontline, so she must be sensitive.

Should I put her on a grain free diet?  Funny thing is, I'm trying to start a gluten free diet myself. I wish I could just eat a prepared diet that would be just right for my body like they make for animals. Yeah, it's probably boring, but it would be so much easier!!!

OH....and she smelled funky after her episodes....sort of like when my dad's dog licks and licks herself. Misty NEVER smells! (well, we don't think she does anyway, haha)

PS Callie, sorry to see you lost one of your fur babies. I haven't been on here in probably at least 7-8 mos till this week, so I am out of the loop!

Misty looks like she might be a herding breed mix, and I don't know how old she is, but epilepsy is a problem especially in Aussies, so if she's 3-5 years old, be suspicious that it may be genetic.  I would still have her tested for hypothyroidism (full thyroid panel), then for any kidney issues, both of which can cause seizures.  TV's have been known to trigger seizures in susceptible dogs, but I've never heard that metal is related, although I certainly wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.  The following site has many resources, and an email list you can join to get help from people who have been traveling the same road:

http://www.canine-epilepsy.com

Lisa, Misty may have smelled funny after the seizures due to excessive salivation and possibly urination.  Try to find the book "Canine Epilepsy" - it is full of good info and is easy to understand.  I can't think of the author's name - Caroline Levine seems to ring a bell.

I'm not sure if you were around the forum when I had Bear - he had a severe seizure disorder and despite meds, herbs, acupuncture, and dietary changes, we could not get the seizures under control.  He was have grand mals, and each time he had an episode, he would have multiple.  After 7 months of going through these every 10 days to 3 weeks, I opted to euthanize him because his quality of life was suffering. 

Each seizure dog is unique in what triggers them and what works.  I hope you can find what helps Misty enjoy a long, quality life with you.

I will try to keep from rambling but this is a topic I actually know! So I apologize in advance.

In regards to triggers - anything in this whole wide world can be a trigger. For Pirate, his seem to be, in order of severity :), TV when it's at 'eye level', strong scents and/or chemicals, food, and stress.

This means we kick him off the couch if we're watching TV...not a huge deal because he's not really a couch-y dog.

Strong scents and chemicals are both the easiest and the most difficult to deal with. In *my* home, we don't use pesticides (this INCLUDES spot-on flea preventative), floor cleaners, bathroom cleaners, laundry detergent with scent, scented candles...you get the idea. I use a TON of white vinegar for cleaning everything from counters to floors to bathrooms. If you google things like 'natural cleaners', you'll get a ton of ideas. It works better than those commercial products and it's cheap! However, he's not a dog in a bubble, so he is exposed to the pesticides our HOA uses in the common areas, etc.

As far as food goes, he does the best on a diet without grains and chicken. Your mileage may vary, but he also does well on a moderate amount of protein, so a lot of the 'super-premium' grain free foods are out. Keep an eye out for stupid ROSEMARY. Lots of epi dogs have trouble with it for some reason, and it's in a ton of foods as a natural preservative. Pirate does the best on Natural Balance's LID line, and they have canned, dry, and treats available.

Stress seems to get to him, so we burn a lot of energy by walking, playing, and training. If he's going into a situation that I know will stress him out, I give him a few drops of Rescue Remedy - again, this is something you might have to play with. Some people say RR doesn't work for their dogs : ) but it works wonderfully for him. When you get 'good' (and in a strange way, I hope you don't have to get GOOD) but I can see a seizure coming in Pirate usually 3 or 4 hours before and sometimes I can cut it off with a few doses of RR throughout the day.

Until you get her seizure behavior figured out, I'd beware of leaving her alone where she could hurt herself, like access to stairs or high furniture. I know that Pirate will head for the same spot when he feels like he might have a seizure and it's a safe spot, but some dogs don't do that and can get hurt.

Finally, a website -- the ice pack trick does nothing for Pirate, however, the vanilla ice cream is really great for him after a seizure.

[http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/]

calliecritturs

The sad fact is that once you start phenobarbitol or potassium bromide (or ANY seizure drug) they are instantly addictive.  Then you have a hard time EVER getting them off the drugs (and all these drugs have horrible long-term side effects).

Please -- do NOT let them put Misty on a seizure drug ... not now.  Please explore other options. 

I completely agree with Callie on this...

We lost Jack in September due to seizures. (Grand mal) Hardest thing I ever had to do was to have him euthanized. His quality of life was miserable and he suffered terribly every day. I wish I would have known about this site (iDog) beforehand, as I would have done lots differently. (Now I suffer daily knowing there were other options out there.) He was only 3 years old.

The first things I would have done different is keep him off of the harsh seizure meds. I adore my regular vet, but never knew about TCVM. If I had known, I would have gone that route instead. I do believe the meds ultimately made him worse.

Sending only the best vibes for your puppers. I know how hard it is, as do the other gals on here, to watch your baby suffer.

hugs...

I may get flamed for this, but you do what you have to do to get the seizures to stop.  I was using both eastern and western vets with Bear and nothing helped.  Seizure disorders are the hardest to treat - both my vets told me that.  Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't.  You do the best you can because every dog is different.

Tina, no one will flame you -- what happened with Bear was sad -- but it does happen.

The deal about **starting** with TCVM is simply that it makes the runway longer.  It gives you time -- hopefully when the seizures are new -- to begin to get them under control *without* the meds so you then have a place TO GO TO if you need to.

In other words -- You simply use the easy stuff first because then you still have options.  Sometimes the TCVM vets can help you identify seizures, or sometimes they can help you identify other areas that are a problem (like Pirate's liver stuff) that a regular vet may not find.

 Not to pick on Pirate but he's the flip side of what happened to Bear.  Megan was a newbie dog owner, young and in college with NO experience at all -- and the seizures wigged her out completely.  So she simply asked the vet to make them stop.  Logical, right?? Sure it is.

But the thing that kicked back was that in Pi, the phenobarbitol actually caused ANOTHER problem (pancytopenia -- an auto-immune disease where the body kills its own platelets) so that axed THAT drug completely and left her with pretty much only KBr (Potatssium Bromide) which also has some mega side effects.

It was MANY TIMES HARDER to enter TCVM after he was already on the drugs and sick with Pancytopenia -- and I'm not sure if Pi is completely off the drugs yet.  But he's on a whole lot less of them than he was.  AND HE IS HEALTHY.

But it's taken a lot of work and a lot of detective work -- I was VERY privileged to go with her last year when she took Pirate to see Dr. Xie up at the Chi Institute -- and man, he helped unravel a whole lot of things -- even the specific times of the day that Pi seized (because it was tied to the liver stuff).

ROSEMARY -- Megan yo rock for mentioning that --

"Pine" -- any type, all types, all kinds, all varieties, all forms.   They ALL contribute to seizures in humans and dogs.

Rosemary is a type of balsam that is edible (you know those cute little "christmas trees" they sell at Target -- those are rosemary usually).  But essentially it's a pine needle that is edible. 

Rosemary is being used in a lot of high end dog foods **as a preservative**.  But they aren't even always reliably putting it on the label (as Megan has found out) and most manufacturers have not even one clue that it may be dangerous.  It sounds so .... NATURAL!! *sigh*

But ... add to rosemary things like ....

cleaning with Pine Sol (or any cheapie derivative), Most Christmas stuff, anyone got pine in their back yard?  pine cones, pine droppings, etc.

Pine tar shampoo!!

The list is endless but Lisa you are getting a good clue.  It could be the metal the clip is made from (cheap zinc type metals -- which would then call vitamins into question) -- OR IT COULD BE --

who handled it before it was dropped?  their perfume or handcream?

One of the BIGGIE things -- and again is sounds so innocuous -- dog shampoo!!  The Hartz OTC shampoo that is sold in grocery stores?  The plain old generic no frills stuff?  BIG TIME TRIGGER OF SEIZURES and well known for it.  They've tried again and again to make Hartz take it off the market to no avail.

 Lisa -- email me with your phone number and I'll call you.  I can walk you thru helping you find a vet and answer questions. 

What Spiritdogs said about thyroid panel is GOLDEN -- but I would go for a breed specific panel and either send it to Michigan State or directly to Dr. Dodds at Hemopet.  You don't have to know exact -- but give them/her your best guess on Misty's heritage.  Again I can help you figure that out -- my vets have gotten really good at it (and he's a 'regular' vet and has started suggesting this type of thyroid profiling for all his clients).

I'm glad to help you -- I know how scarey this is. 

Thanks everyone for your wonderful answers. I took her to the regular vet today for the detailed blood panel, including thyroid. Should be back either tomorrow or Saturday. She hasn't had any problems today thank goodness. I've been giving her lots of love today and she seems to be loving it for sure!  She seemed so helpless last night when she came to me right as it was happening. 

We crate her when we leave, so she should be safe in there. We live in the middle of NC where pine trees are literally everywhere including all over our back yard.  I'm not sure what I can really do about that other than move! I will check her food, but I would love some suggestions of a good, grain free relatively not too high protein food to feed her. I think someone mentioned Natural Balance...I will go do some research on that food (we fed it to another dog we had about 8 years ago, but I'm sure it's changed)  and see where I can find it. We live in an area where there aren't many places to get good quality pet foods, so I'd have to drive probably 30 minutes each way to get it, but it's worth it for her!

Our vet did say they don't prefer to treat seizures unless they become a regular thing, so I'm relieved about that at least. I did hear that there's a holistic vet somewhere so I'll look into that as well.  My daughter will be starting college next fall in pre-veterinary studies...boy oh boy do I wish she was already a vet!

Tina, I would never dare flame you ((hugs)). Everyone's situation is different and Bear's case was quite different than what it sounds like is happening with Misty. I think what's important to me is that the dog is happy with the level of seizure control that you can achieve, through whatever means. I guess I should probably mention that Pirate doesn't have severe grand mal seizures, he has clusters of petit mal seizures. I'm comfortable with the level of seizure control we have at this point - he hasn't seized since December (knock on wood)

About the pine trees - have you ever heard the 'bucket' analogy used to describe allergies? In a nutshell, imagine a bucket with a little hole in the bottom and a faucet dripping into it. The bucket can only hold so much, and so long as it drips out of the bottom as fast as it comes in the top, he's fine. That's kind of how Pirate is with his seizure triggers...he can be exposed to so much of his triggers (drops in the bucket), but when he's exposed to TOO MANY, the bucket overflows and he seizes. So the pine trees might not necessarily trigger her, but the combination of being stressed, licking the paperclip, and the pine trees being in bloom might have been too much.

I hope that makes sense, I just woke up from a nap :)

I forgot to mention dog shampoo in my shpeil as well - you might have to play around with that one. Mane and Tail is one that doesn't bother Pirate, go figure!

Feel free to PM me or email me or even find me on Facebook :)

 Petco will always have Natural Balance dog food. Don't have anything else to add. I wigged out when Jezzy was seizing after the bee sting last year, so I understand where you are coming from.

Sending lots of prayers and good thoughts for all of you!