Dog food help

    • Gold Top Dog

    Darvon
    Are you telling me that if I ate brown rice, organic boneless skinless chicken, and mixed vegtables consisting of(carrots, peas, and corn) with filtered water every single day...  That I would not thrive and be healthy?   are you serious.  Are you insinuating that you would live longer than I would because you drank milk, i doubt that. 

    First off -- be a bit careful -- there are a LOT of us on this site who homecook.  some do raw -- and Jennie is just one of many.  So ... don't try to pick a fight ok??  You asked for help and we'll try but don't be arrogant unless you DON'T really want help (and honestly, yes -- you sounded arrogant in your response to her).

    Dog's have different nutritional requirements than we do -- their digestive system is really pretty different, BUT they can be omnivores **if** we help them.

    Case in point -- brown rice.  It's marginally more nutritious than white rice, but it's also hard as heck for them to digest.  Dogs don't digest cellulose well -- so -- with brown rice you have to cook it into oblivion (way past 'done';) OR you have to process it into paste to get it broken down enough to really have it nutritionally be useful.  It's not 'bad' -- it's just more difficult to digest so we have to make sure we prepare it so they get the nutrition from it that IS there.

    "mixed veggies" -- that's a loaded concept.  When you serve the same veg mix all the time you then approach the dogfood companies who want you to feed the same thing.  BUT beyond that peas/carrots/corn have some individual problems -- you can do better with *other* veggies.

    Carrots -- they love them -- but they're high in phosphorous for any calcium that's there (check out 'cal/phos ratio' -- it's even important for humans). 

    Peas -- not really a veggie - they're a legume so techically they are a protein -- but only part of a protein mix.  Again there's that tough skin around the outside -- if I were using peas (which I don't typically) I'd probably use dried "split pea" so they would distintigrate as cooked.  Incidentally, I've known people who did an elmination "allergy" diet of spllit peas and mashed white potato for WEEKS and then used that as the 'base' of what they ultimately built into a allergy-free diet for their dogs.

    Corn -- that one honestly I'd skip.  Again, really tough to digest that outer skin, but more to the point a whole *lot* of dogs can be allergic to corn if they aren't allergic to any other food.  so you're tossing in a potential allergen there.

    I know you're referring to the frozen "mix" of carrots, peas and corn -- and on occasion it would be fine.  BUT you're limiting the nutrition seriously there. 

    Long term?  As a human would that be a "balanced" diet for you?  Nope.  Altho -- we humans supposedly chew our food to grind it up, and a lot of people grow up veggie impaired and never GET beyond "mixed veggies" (altho my Dad was fine if he had corn Sunday night, Peas Monday, carrot sticks on Tuesday and then rotate them again!!)

    What do I feed?

    This week the veggies are kale, turnip greens, sweet potato, white potato, green beans, tomato (that one is canned - diced with oregano/basil added) and one can of pure-pack pumpkin (not pie filling).  All those are cooked til tender and then I mash the whole thing up with a potato masher.  I don't peel the potatoes (neither) but I DO chop them up enough so that the skin breaks down in cooking and digests well. 

    But I vary it mostly every week.  sweet potato and white potato tend to be my 'base' -- I don't use grain at all (it's really not something their bodies use well and it can create inflammation problems in *my* dogs so I skip it if possible). 

    TO THAT I add ground beef (and I rotate that with ground pork, lamb, whitefish, ground turkey -- usually NOT white meat).  I don't feed chicken at all. 

     It's not 'bad' -- but again, it can promote inflammation in a couple of my dogs so I just plain skip it.  It's not an 'allergy' -- it's more like an intolerance.  Sometimes it's FINE -- other times, it will add to problems that may be lurking. 

    I put some sort of fish in EVERY week -- sometimes it's simply a sardine or two each day (usually I add canned sardines -- olive oil or water) for each dog. 

    Once a month I do organ meat -- sometimes more often than that.  Generally liver or heart.  Generally beef.  But I add the organ meat as an "extra" -- it's not the main meat ever.  Liver and kidneys are "dirty" organs -- any antibiotics, or drugs or chemicals that animal consumed days/weeks prior to slaughter STAY in the liver and kidneys (they filter the blood of ANY animal) so I try to stick with minimal organ meat but they DO need it. 

    Beef heart is awesome -- it's CHEAP as heck and it's a 'clean' organ and very little fat.  Sometimes I will just cut it up and give it raw as a treat, sometimes I will substitute it as part of their meat ration for that week.  I can get it for about $1.69 at my grocery store -- can't beat that.

    THEN I ADD -- Calcium.  I buy Natures Essentials (it's harvested from kelp -- so if you have a dog allergic to seafood like Jennie's dog is you can't use that as a calcium source).  My dogs don't get a *lot* of bones.  They get some, but not nearly enough for the calcium they need (healthy bones and strong bodies -- just like the old commercial said -- and yeah, for you and I as well!!)   How much calcium you need to add depends on the kind you use.  Bone meal is easily obtainable in any health store -- but it has to be "human quality" bone meal - NOT NOT NOT garden bone meal (it's poison). But generally, depending on brand, you use either one rounded teaspoon to either 8 or 16 oz of meat

    Beyond this is varies WIDELY.  If you look in the nutrition section on this website you'll find TONS of stuff on cooking and raw diets.  Everyone's got an opinion.  But pretty please -- be a bit open minded and keep in mind we all have our own frames of reference.

    Darvon
     Don't most people give their dogs the same dry food...  over their entire life... and that is more healthy or "balanced" then what we are doing?  I am having a hard time believing it.  

    First off it all depends on what kind of food you're using.  Man -- quality is all over the place.  Most grocery store brands, and even pet store brands (like Authority, Iams, Eukaneuba) and even vet brands (like Hills)  -- they use meat sources that are the pits and contain all sorts of carcinogens as preservatives and in most states they don't even have to put it on the label!!  Because the only thing they are required to put on the label is what THEY add.  So if they're buying an inferior meat source that is preserved to the hilt with BHA, BHT and ethoxyquin -- they don't even have to label it.  (and those are things that are illegal for the most part in human food).

    But going to the really expensive brands -- it's still all over the map how good the meat may be, what it's preserved with, how much grain is in it, and how much protein. 

    THOSE THINGS are very individual. 

    But as far as 'balanced'?  Most dog foods -- even the majorly crappy ones like Ole Roy and Purina -- they ARE **balanced** according to national vet specifications.  But they're adding powdered vitamins and supplements.  The 'food' itself is minimal -- the majority of the "nutrition" is coming from what essentially amounts to chemicals in **some** cases.  That's how they can offer you 12 kinds of meat, etc. or gravy or no gravy -- because what they "lack" in one flavor they simply add more vitamins, minerals, etc. to "balance" it.

    But is that better?  A whole lot of us on here would say "no".  Because it's not just the nutrition that is "there" - it's HOW the body uses it.  It's also the extra lovely things like carcinogens as preservatives, and tons of grains and bulks that a lot of us object to.  If I *make* the food I know exactly what's in it.  No guess.

    Probably the *biggest* motivator for me to cook is elminating BHA, BHT and ethoxyquin and avoiding a ton of grain in the food.

    Why?  Because I've lost a couple of dogs to cancer.  Dogs who ate pretty darned well in the vast scheme of commerical foods.  But ... foods I now know contained carcinogenic preservatives.  It's one of MY hot buttons. 

    That's the basis of why I *don't* feed grain.  Because cancer feeds on grain carbs and it makes cancer grow.  So not only have I used "cancer diets" on dogs with cancer -- I simply now feed my dogs without grain so **IF** there is cancer it's not going to be inadvertently fed by what I give them. 

     Again -- my decision. 

    Darvon
    That I would not thrive and be healthy?   are you serious.  Are you insinuating that you would live longer than I would because you drank milk, i doubt that.

    Sorry -- I'm mixing up your paragraphs, but for a reason.

    I had a pom/peke mix once I rescued as a street stray at the age of 5 months.  When she was 3 she got a really **horrible** case of pancreatitis.  This was like 34 years ago -- and when I sprung her from the doggie "joint" hospital the vet said to me "If you want her to LIVE you will cook for her and NOT give her commercial dog food -- she'll likely always have pancreatic problems -- here's a diet for you!"

    He handed me a piece of paper.  Essentially it was a "diet" of white rice, a small amount of relatively good quality ground beef, a bit of powdered garlic for flavor and one egg stirred in for extra protein (http://www.critturs.com/prissy.html ) -- the actual recipe is on that page.

    She lived to be TWENTY-ONE.  Not even any veggies in that.  An occaisonal bone.  OCCASIONALLY I gave her cottage cheese.  But other than that -- she stuck with that completely "unbalanced" diet for the next 18 years.

    But ... when she got old she was pretty danged frail.  Now that I know what i know I could have done better for her and elminated some weakness in her old age. 

    She also had darned few breed-related health issues and generally was pretty darned healthy.  She had a LOT of anal gland issues (which I could have eliminated with better roughage in her diet had I known). 

    Now -- would a human on your brown rice/chicken/mixed veggie diet thrive?  It would honestly depend on how healthy they were. 

    We humans distain dark meat chicken because it has more *cholesterol*!!!!!  We prize the white meat and then think we're doing something special giving our dogs breast meat.  That's not really true.  Dark meat gives them more nutrition -- dogs don't have the cholesterol problems people do -- it's the difference in how our hearts and dog hearts process meat/cholesterol. 

    However -- I can tell you this.  If you are a WOMAN you wouldn't do very well on that diet long, long term -- because, depending on your genetic history, you'd very likely wind up with osteoporosis!!! 

    We humans get our calcium quite well from dairy.  Dogs tend not to ... again it's a difference in their digestive systems.

    But bottom line -- it's honestly not just a matter of "ok" or "not".  It's a matter of grades and doing the best we can. 

    One of the reasons I home cook is to avoid health issues.  Yes, I avoid and "starve" cancer by feeding essentially a cancer diet all the time.  But -- one of the reasons I use the sweet potato base is because it's high in anti-oxidants and it's very kidney friendly.  I have an English cocker that survived IMHA (read "boodles of steroids and steroid-like drugs that kill the liver and kidneys for 2 years";) and given that I did my level best to control the damage by giving him tons of milk thistle (he's alive -- trust me, it's no small accomplishment) we STILL have ***some*** kidney damage.

    When you have kidney *damage* it's gone.  There's no 'repair' to it.  The liver will regenerate.  The kidneys don't.  So ... I keep his kidneys in the best shape I possibly can.  So I feed him stuff that is very kidney friendly.

    Billy gets stuff like kale, asparagus, sweet potato, and a whole lot of other things because they are kidney friendly.  I also use a lot of the principles of Traditional Chinese Veterinary Medicine in how I feed my animals -- and they use food a *lot* to heal. 

    If one of my dogs has a health issue we typically tweak the food to help.  I tend not to have "easy" dogs.  My healthy one is a basset/beagle mix who is built like a suspension bridge on legs -- she's gotta stay lean so I can avoid back problems later on.  I've got the English Cocker who survived IMHA, but he's got a grade 3 heart murmur and we skirt the renal problems.  But he's alive, healthy and doing VERY well.  We've got a pug who nearly died of infection before she was 5 months old -- she had a majorly crap immune system but she's matured into a lovely *healthy* dog but she has some skin issues and some ear issues and I suspect we will see some seasonal allergy stuff eventually.  I want to keep that immune system healthy to avoid that if possible.  I have a 19 year old little old lady peke who's entering life's final round.  But dang -- she's still hanging on -- she's fragile and frail but still eating  like a horse.  (losing weight horribly but we're doing our best and that that age she's doing darned well).

    I'm honestly not sure what your basic argument is -- but then you don't know the folks on this board.  If you're trying to convince folks that commercial dog food isn't all it's cracked up to be?  You aren't going to get many to fight that one with you here because as I said a LOT of us either home cook or do raw. 

    You asked our opinion on what you're doing -- and I tried to do that.  Is it horrible?  No, it's not.  But by tweaking it you can do better.  By using a **variety** of veggies and meats you can actually do REALLY well. 

    One of your respondants congratulated you on an allergy diet for your dog.  They're right.  You've limited the ingredients, so you essentially have done your own version of an elimination diet. 

    So don't change it ALL at once.  Add ONE thing ... see how it's tolerated.  Then add another.  You'll be able to identify what works and what doesn't. 

    You've identified some problems like dandruff/dryness -- Jennie is right -- there's likely not enough fat in what you're giving.  Now there's a whole BOOK of information just on fats and dogs.  They don't do well on veggie fats, and some meat fats (particularly when cooked) can be problematic in quantity.  But there are lots of ways to arrive at that.

    AND sometimes the variety in "lots of ways" can be your salvation -- because in giving a thing occasionally (like organ meat) you are able to provide those trace elements (like copper) that a 'balanced' diet needs but doesn't need LOTS of. 

    It all depends on how deep into it you want to get.  There are gals on here with spreadsheets and recipes out the ying yang.  They can bury you in statistics. 

     That's FINE.  That's *great* for them.  It's not *my* way.  I arrive at 'safety' in variety.  bok choy?  okra?  parsnip?  turnip?  cabbage?  (red and white), 5 varieties of squash and pumpkin?  You bet.  Every week?  no. 

    I manage to feed myself.  Feeding the dogs isn't tons different.  But it is *some* different and honestly, the one thing you really need to read up on is the *difference* between dog digestion and ours.  It will help you.

    I may have just wasted an hour and a half typing this.  Because maybe you really don't *want* an answer.  Don't think because someone comes right to the point and says "no, that's not balanced" that they're telling you that you're killing your dog.  That's not the case. 

    How important is 'balance'?  That completely depends on the individual and their health.  Genetics in humans AND dogs makes a huge difference.  I come from a family with high cholesterol and heart problems - so I bust my own butt to make sure I keep it in line.  And mostly?  I do *not* eat like my parents do!  (and honestly, I feed myself way better now that I know dog nutrition better)  I also have a huge family history of osteoporosis and arthritis -- so I have to feed my own self wisely there as well.

    I do the same for my dogs. 

    good luck and welcome.  But don't assume an answer before you've asked your question.  There are a lot of folks here who are really knowledgable.  If you're looking for a fight someone will give it to you (and the rest of us will give you a wide berth) -- but if you're really looking for information you'll find that as well -- and good discussion along the way.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Darvon
    So just so I understand things correctly. Kibble and Bits is ok...  that cheap 15 dollars for 40 pounds junk.(ok in the sense that they sell it and dogs live on it, and dogs survive well past their average life expectancy on it).. 

    Darvon you're making some sweeping assumptions here -- NO ONE on here would feed Kibbles & Bits EVER.  In fact, most of us won't touch a grocery store brand food with a 10 foot barge pole. 

    Don't equate the word "balanced" with "good".  They are NOT the same thing.  You can take a pound of strycnine and a pound of battery acid and put them on opposite ends of a teeter totter and achieve "balance".  Am I going to EAT either of them?  Nope.

    Balance in a nutritional sense means all the basic elements of nutrition and trace nutrients for that being are "met".  It just means they are THERE.  It doesn't say what quality they are, how consumable they are, or how useable they are to the body.  If they are "there" it satisfies that 'balance' requirement.

    We're all going FAR deeper Darvon.  We're all talking quality here.  And useability to the dog's body.

    Darvon
    , why is a retired veterinary surgeon, who has seen and heard everything, telling me exactly differently? 

    I take it from your remarks about Kibbles 'N Bits that you're a bit jaded about the pet food industry.  But hey -- remember, these pet food industries all have nutritionists, vets, doctors and all sorts of "experts" endorsing their product. 

    WHY?  because they get paid. 

    I may have missed it but I don't think you've told us where this other stuff was posted.  NONE of us work for Dog.com.  NONE Of us work for pet food companies.  NONE of us are getting paid a dime for our 'opinions' -- but most of us (particularly the ones trying to answer you) either have dogs with health issues, or we have a passion for dog nutrition and have dedicated a ton of our lives to trying to understand it.

    Your retired  veterinary surgeon?  A - he's probably NOT  into nutrition.  Most vets aren't.  Most vets know *very little* about nutrition -- and they tend to believe the dog food companies who sponsor the grants they're using.  Companies like Hills, Waltham, etc. who may manufacture prescription foods (and fund huge grants in vet schools) who donate their foods to the vet school so the vet gets used to using THAT brand of food to "fix" certain problems.  The vet believes what he's been told and sold -- but they aren't nutritionists. 

    I went nose to nose with a vet from Science Diet one day at a conference.  He went on and on about how Hills foods are SO great.  And I asked him why they use -- and don't disclose -- the BHA, BHT and ethoxyquin preseving the meat IN those foods. 

    Know what he told me?  "Those preservatives are in Twinkies.  What's used in Hills is in tiny amounts."

    I told him "I haven't had a Twinkie in 35 years.  And I certainly don't eat them for every meal every day of my life.  Dogs DO when they consume commercial dog food with those poor quality ingredients".

    I really thot he was gonna explode. 

    But Science Diet pays his salary.  THAT is why he loves them. 

    WE don't know what website you took that info from, nor do we know what affiliiation that veterinary surgeon (and if he's retired how "up" on nutrition is he??  Is he still practicing?) has with what pet food or pet supplement industry. 

    Many websites are heavily sponsored by certain foods and supplements.  so be really cautious -- they may not be as straight forward as you'd assume.

    • Gold Top Dog

    calliecritturs
    I may have just wasted an hour and a half typing this.

     

    I'm taking notes and Tina thanks you for this. Smile

    • Bronze

     Callie, thank you for the reply. I read every word you wrote and took some notes as well.  

     

    I dont mean to come off as snarky but I am hearing different things and am frustrated because my dog is my best friend and I promised I would take care of her the best I can and want to do the best stuff for her.  

    She has very fickle stomach and I hate when she gets sick and eats grass and then I have to take her out every two hours and sit with her even when its cold.  

    We tried every food, all the best ones and the most expensive they sell.  Organix, Castor and Pollux,  The potato and duck one, all of them.  And we gave her time, we did all the instructions with mixing the old food and then sticking with the new one for months to get acclimated. 

     So when we finally started just cooking her food she stopped having stomach aches and she always eats her dinner now and licks her bowl.  

     So I really dont want to mess with this diet.  

     My question is if we gave her these(1 of each a day before dinner):

    Pet-Tabs Calcium Supplement for Dogs & Cats

     Pet-Tabs Complete Daily Vitamin-Mineral Dog Supplement

     Would that be enough so that she was getting the proper stuff she needs?  

     

    Her name is sadie, she is 25 pounds and 8 years old.
    • Gold Top Dog

    Excellent and informative post Callie.  But.  Heart isn't considered an organ meat.  It's actually muscle meat.  We had a raging "discussion" about this very issue a number of years ago, and organ lost!  LOL!

    • Gold Top Dog

    My brother's dog Mandy looks very much like her! 

    I know from my days of homecooking--and others will probably jump in if I'm wrong or outdated--but calcium needs to be balanced with how much boneless meat you are using. 

    I'm sure others will have the correct figures, I can't recall at this moment. 

    But, you may not need that whole calcium vitamin.  Willow used either human calcium broken into the amounts I needed or sometimes I used Solid Gold bonemeal.  But, I'm not sure that's good anymore.  You might do well with the BalanceIt that was mentioned earlier--it might give you all you need in that one product. 

    My dog has many digestive issues too so I know what it's like trying to find something they can eat that's healthy for them. 

    Lori

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    I think we can all relate to FINALLY finding something that works, but, it really is important to have the proper phosperous/calcium ratio.

    Honestly, I don't like "pet" anything.  When I need to use something, be it cranberry tabs, fish oil, whatever I use HUMAN grade.  For calcium, I always used egg shell powder, but I always had plenty since I used egg in their food anyway.

    My carb base was sweet potatoes.  NO grains at all.  If I happened to get a batch that wasn't thick enough I'd add a few quick cooking oats, but that was rare.  Cali is dead right about the mixed veggies......pretty high carb content without a lot of useable nutrients (to a dog)  My dogs LOVE collard greens and cut okra??  Oh my, they dance for that!  However, you either have to cook and mash or puree in the food processor and then cook, any veggie because they just don't break them down enough to USE the nutrients.  We've had very long discussions about the fact that they may NOT raid my garden.  They'll get the cabbage, zuchinni, various squashes, tomatoes and all the home grown goodies, all in good time, but NOT if they help themselves!  LOL!  With 6 gsd's there wouldn't be much left for us humans!

    • Gold Top Dog

    Darvon

    So when we finally started just cooking her food she stopped having stomach aches and she always eats her dinner now and licks her bowl.  

     So I really dont want to mess with this diet.  

     My question is if we gave her these(1 of each a day before dinner):

    Pet-Tabs Calcium Supplement for Dogs & Cats

     Pet-Tabs Complete Daily Vitamin-Mineral Dog Supplement

     Would that be enough so that she was getting the proper stuff she needs?  

    Those are meant as "supplements" -- read "extra".  So they aren't going to bring that "lack' in what you're doing all the way up to snuff.

    What you're doing is *not* heinous.  don't get me wrong -- it's not terrible, horrible or appalling.  Not at all.  It's at least FRESH!!!!

    But ... long long term -- as in years (and you want her to live FOR years ... we're not talking weeks here -- we're talking the rest of her life) you have to meet the needs of the heart and other organs. 

    Chicken just doesn't have enough taurine.  You'd have to seriously supplement this diet (and then quite honestly, you can still run all the same risks of the supplements upsetting her) for her to live long term safely.  AND we're not talking about a fully healthy specimen -- this is a dog who had problems and you've already been *searching* (long and hard by the sounds of it) FOR a better alternative.

    So -- what do you do to do *better* and not upset the proverbial apple cart.

    Let me ask a couple of questions first tho.

    Do you cook every day?  How often do you feed her?   (there's no wrong answer to that one either - Prissy preferred once a day, mine now eat twice a day)

    At this point I cook once a week!  Then I literally measure it out for each dog twice a day.  This way I make sure no one chubs out and no one goes without. 

    I work -- I'm a legal secretary so I'm gone ALL day and cooking for four dogs every day just isn't a starter. 

    PLUS -- by cooking once a week I can add a far far greater variety and not completely make it un-doable. 

    So -- my suggestion would be don't try to make big changes at all.  What you are doing is working.  It's not horrible - it's just not balanced.  But we have a girl with a touchy tummy here.  And honestly, you aren't at all sure WHAT upsets it.  All you *are* sure of is that right now you are avoiding problems.

    So ... make just ONE change at a time.  If I were you, I'd first find a decent calcium supplement.  Not pet tabs (remember -- those are chewables -- they've got beef flavoring, and 'binders' and all sorts of stuff -- and right off the bat you're adding potential problems for JUST a supplement -- not *enough* anyway!)  NOW Brand Foods makes a good calcium, you can get bone meal at any health store, and there are others.  But just get a pure calcium source.

    I don't know if you're cooking daily or weekly -- but try doing it for several days at a time.  Add your calcium by how much meat you use.  (some of the gals -- Glenda in particular knows this I know -- use egg shells for calcium -- they process them in the food processor to a powder but I don't know the measurements).

    JUST this is going to tell you some things.  Like I said, Jennie has a dog who is allergic to all fish and seafood.  So she can't use any calcium source like the one I use that's derived from kelp (seastuff).  If a dog were allergic to eggs they'd react to egg shell probably.

    So... by adding calcium, you're likely going to figure out JUST WITH THAT if a whole group is suspect.  That's not for sure, but it's a good beginning place.  So if you add bone meal as your calcium and it's derived from beef then you're NEXT change could easily be substituting beef for the chicken.

    But only change ONE thing a week.  That gives you 7 days to see how she does.  Do you see any recurrence of the former problems?  oops -- go back to what was working. 

    This is how you DO an elimination diet. 

    Then ... once you have successfully added calcium ... and changed meat .... change one more thing.  but ... switch meats back and forth.  Do chicken one week but maybe add beef *liver*. 

    but only change one thing at a time.  But hey -- instead of the "mixed veggies" -- you can use more carrot and maybe "split peas" one week.  You already know both are well tolerated.  Omit the corn but by increasing the carrot and peas you are actually changing the balance. 

    But then -- add an easy veggie and you likely will find veggies ARE easy.  sweet potato.  white potato.  greens -- turnip, collards, even spinach. 

    Educate yourself as you go.  Does she have any arthritis?  That's going to change things.  If she has arthritis you can't do veggies with a lot of oxalic acid (like spinach -- that's one I can't use at all cos I've got two arthritic dogs!)

    But by adding veggies in a bigger variety you will be adding better balance. 

    To get the same volume decrease your rice a bit in proportion. 

    Consider veggies this way -- think about how they grow.  some veggies are "leafy green" -- meaning they grow above ground and mostly the leaf is eaten (kale, spinach, lettuce, etc.) -- you'll find they *to a degree* have many of the same nutrients, but some are better than others.  Kale is honestly one of the most PERFECT veggies out there.  But it's tough -- you have to cook it and process it usually (I have to mash it into oblivion) but it's FULL of nutrition and a great cal/phos ratio. 

    Some veggies grow above ground but are vine-oriented.  squash, pumpkin, and even tomatoe -- they're all 'vine' veggies.  Mostly high in anti-oxidants and vitamins.  But RICH.  So you don't add tons and tons until you know it's tolerated well. 

    Some veggies are "roots" -- carrots, sweet potato, parsnip, radishes -- some sweet, some hot - but again they offer entirely different nutrition because of HOW they are grown.

    Color, how grown, form -- all these things impact what nutrition is in a veggie.

    so ... maybe you wouldn't know Kale from a Martian?  So start easy (and remember -- you're going to add stuff just ONE new thing a week!)

    So -- make it easy.  particularly if you aren't the world's greatest cook.  Add baby food veggies at first.  It's a GREAT way to see if a food is tolerated well and not waste tons of food.

    Stop by the baby section in the grocery store -- you can find squash, green beans, spinach, sweet potato for starters. 

    It might also be a REALLY easy way for you to try different meats -- you can get baby food veal, lamb, beef -- so rather than cooking some big bunch of stuff you can **try** a new thing pretty easy (even just add a little beef TO other cooked food -- you'll likely know in a couple of days if you're gonna see a bad reaction).

    I don't blame you for being frustrated -- and it's not easy to learn to express yourself correctly on a messageboard when you don't know the personality of the board you've stumbled into.  In honesty, you've got a TON of collective wisdom here in the folks who have replied to you tonight.  And hopefully now you can step back and re-read what they've said and glean a little more from it. 

    I wouldn't make any big changes.  What you're doing is working well **short term**.  It will buy you enough time to then add better nutrition and get it more into balance.  You'll be able to find out what works ... and what does *NOT*.

    Veggies are RICH.  Far far more rich than you'd believe.  So just because something is a veggie doesn't mean it's going to be well tolerated.

    What you're giving has a LOT of bulk in it.  That alone may be key -- and if you reduce the corn, for example, you may notice loose stool.  That doesn't mean she's GOTTA have corn.  That means you figure out what was she getting *with* corn that I didn't replace it with. 

    Take your time.  But have "progress" as your goal. Because at her age she needs certain things TO grow old well.  She's a senior dog now -- her heart has certain needs.  So does her gut. 

    But by making changes VERY slowly you'll be able to keep track of it.  Most of the folks on here who are serious about this keep computer records.  So start a calendar and log ALL changes into it.  And remember -- it's not just what you ADD -- it's what you've changed proportion wise and what you've omitted.  Cos 'balance' in this isn't JUST vitamins.  it's things like bulk -- and roughage too. 

    ONE MORE THOT -- since you already know she tolerates chicken well -- why not add raw chicken wings and/or necks occasionally.  That's good calcium, and it's good for the teeth.  (freeze them, and then bring up to regular fridge temp overnight before you give them).  Once you know beef is well tolerated you then have more choice of bones to try (raw). 

    She appreciates the fact that you are trying so hard.  I have to say I appreciate the fact that you're trying to learn.  I've seen folks get off on a bad start and then they just fly away mad.  You've read this whole thing tonight and you had character enough to come back and read MY epistle and then explain yourself further.

    We can work with that.  If you wonder what someone "meant" -- PM them and ask.  Most folks on here are pretty darned approachable. 

    Holler at me any time - and I do mean that. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    From Glenda's above:

    "But.  Heart isn't considered an organ meat.  It's actually muscle meat.  We had a raging "discussion" about this very issue a number of years ago, and organ lost!  LOL!" 

     

    Yep -- I know.  But it IS a valuable meat source - more than most folks realize and I use it *like* organ meat.

    • Moderators
    • Gold Top Dog

    Awesomely informative (and tolerant) posts there, Callie.  I'd take Callie, Jennie, and many of our other board members' recommendations on home cooking over a retired vet (who may have taken ONE class on canine nutrition, 20+ years ago, when people WERE feeding Kibbles-n-Bits), any day.  Let's remember, many vets are the same people who wholeheartedly recommend Science Diet, which is loaded with corn and other garbage which most of us know is no good for our dogs.  Better than some foods, and balanced by AAFCO guidelines, but certainly not up to snuff.

    Anyway, good for the OP for sticking around.  The only reason I found this forum was because I needed help with nutrition, and I learned back then that these forum members have done tons and tons of research and have very good information to share with us about nutrition.  The proof is in the scientific studies they've poured over, and in their own dogs who have thrived despite a variety of health issues.    Thanks, guys, for sharing that knowledge with the rest of us.

    • Gold Top Dog

    You know Darvon I used to think the EXACT SAME AS YOU.  When I started to cook homemade for my dogs I did it almost the exact same way as you did....rice, chicken, vegies, etc. etc. etc.  I figured how could I possibly go wrong with feeding them better than I ate.  I did it like this for over a year and several doctors said this would be OKish.  WELL, come to find out my dogs (which I love to pieces and would do ANYTHING for) weren't getting nor meeting the daily nutrients they should have been getting.  That's where Dr. Callie and this site came in.....noone told me straight out what to do or change, and to be honest I didn't even ask, I actually used this site and just searched and read some of the older posts.  The first thing that I started to realize was that what I was feeding my dogs was nowhere near what they should have been getting (nutrient wise).  To make things simpler I switched them all over to a quality kibble and within a month I was starting to notice differences in all aspects of their lives....from their fur to energy levels.  Things started to improve.

    I'ld have to admit that I'ld take the advise from some of the people on here (that I barely even know yet) than I would from doctors.  Maybe I'm wrong for doing this but they're a great bunch of poeple on here who only care about what's best for our furkids.

    I hope you get the food issue figured out and good luck with it.  Let us know what you decide.

    Johnny & Tessy

    • Gold Top Dog

    Oh yeah....thanks for the read Callie.  You sure can explain things in detail.  I learned tonnes.  Wanna come to Canada to live?

    • Gold Top Dog

    Yeah Callie, I use heart a fair amount too.  Wally World usually has sliced heart for 98 a lb and my dogs LOVE it raw......and it's a wonderful source of taurine!

    • Gold Top Dog

    Wal-Mart's carrying it WOW!!  And a lot of people have said they have a hard time finding it.  It is Senior Citizen HEAVEN because it's cheap, low fat and awesomely good for you (and it's tasty -- just saute it for humans too)

    No Johnny - I'm not moving to Canada, even if you do have the most gorgeous bunch of cockers I've ever seen in my life!  SNOW lady -- I moved here from western NY State (south of Niagara Falls) to get **away** from snow.  ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww (I don't mind the cold but I hate, loathe and despise snow LOL)

    • Gold Top Dog

    Callie, I've rarely found it in NORTHERN Walmarts,but for some reason the Southern ones pretty uniformly carry them.  And cheap.

    Unlike Callie, I'd almost rather have a little snow rather than the darned COLD, wet, windy we've been getting, without any sort of payoff!  But, not very much....