Abe has cataracts...Do it or not to do it. Who is responsible for it?

    • Gold Top Dog

    Abe has cataracts...Do it or not to do it. Who is responsible for it?

    So we did take Abe to the vet today and she said that he has 2 cataracts. They can be removed or he can slowly go completely blind. Abe is only 2-3 years old and I don't know how long it would take for him to go blind, but my first instinct was. YES we are going to do this. the only issue is that it will cost us about $4,000 and we will have to drive to Dallas (my parents live there so we stay with them) for consult a month before hand, give him medication beforehand, and afterwards give him eye drops for many months.

    DH was rather "I don't care" about it. He thinks it's too expensive and that Abe is our pet and not a child. I argued that yes, he is our pet, and why wouldn't we do what we could to help him. He is so young and it would be sad to have him blind for a majority of his life. We could save the money to have it done. Has anyone every had just one eye done?

    OHHH, and one more important thing. We just adopted Abe 8 months ago from a breed rescue. They did not do a good job in keeping up with him medically. He was supposed to come completely vaccinated and they had no idea that he was not up to date. They also didn't bother to tell us when we put in our application that he had a skin infection that was contagious and our other dog could get it so we had to wait 3 weeks before driving down there to get him. We ended up taking Abe to OUR vet and the vet billed them and they paid for his vaccinations. Among other things, Abe was with a foster family for several weeks and they did not work with him. He didn't know his name, he wasn't really potty trained, was not crate trained. Basically, they didn't know what they were doing when it came to fostering a dog and preparing it for a permanent home.

    What if Abe had this condition before we had him? Wouldn't it be the rescues job to pay for it especially if it was pre-existing and they didn't tell us? I don't even know where to go with this. If I call them, they are going to say that he developed them after we adopted him. But, looking back, it seems that Abe has had sight problems since we got him. We just didn't think it was something major like this.

    I am also considering trying to find his old vet down there and have them mail copies of everything they have. If there are records indicating that Abe already had cataracts wouldn't it be the rescues job to pay for it, or help pay for it? Even assisting  us would be a huge help.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I'm really sorry to hear about Abe's cataracts. I am currently trying to find a surgeon to do luxating patella surgery on my year old pup that we adopted. The shelter we got her from boasts a "state of the art" surgical clinic for the dogs that are in their care, so I called there in the hopes that since I adopted her from there, and she is barely a year old, currently lame, and her condition is congenital that they might be willing to do the surgery at a lower cost than the Ortho I took her to.( their estimate was low end $2800 per leg..high end $3100.. and she needs both done.) The shelter I adopted her from refused to help me. I wasn't asking them to do it for free....just at a lower cost...and the only "help" they offered was to give me the number of a clinic that does low cost spay/neuters in a really bad part of town.Thanks for nothing! lol .I REALLY hope that you can work something out with the rescue. I don't think they are obligated to help financially, unless they DID know it was a pre- existing condition and did not disclose it...but hopefully they will do something for you. I would definately contact the vet and have the records sent to you regardless.

    I am going to take my pup to another Ortho tomorrow for a consult. 

    Good luck with Abe.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Rescues **may** be able to identify some problems -- particularly a problem that is visible at that point in time.  But please don't lose sight of the fact that rescues are *volunteers*.  Generally people who like dogs and may love the breed -- but they aren't trained health practitioners. 

    "Well don't they go to the vet?"  Yes, BUT ... vets may work at a discounted rate for a shelter, but testing for some sort of future eye problem would be pretty high end stuff and *very* costly.  Now they might check for dry eye, but even then *only* if someone noticed some possible symptom of it.

    They don't try to give an exhaustive "let's find EVERYTHING that might **ever** go wrong with this dog NOW!" kind of exam.  They aren't looking for huge problems to treat -- and frankly there's only so much of that you *can* find anyway.  And to then try to make them responsible?  No - that's not fair nor reasonable.

    You aren't getting a dog with any guarantee.  They'll tell you, usually, if there is some obvious thing wrong, but that's only if someone is switched on enough to *see* a problem.  (Like eyes that are red or goopy or puffy or swollen because of dryness ... but a deep eye exam?  Shoot -- in all my years as a dog owner I've only had one dog have an exam like that and they were looking for something off the wall then!!)

    That being said -- to address your other questions:

    Frankly, a dog's eyes are their *weakest* sense.  Their vision is essentially poor anyway.  Night vision usually is better than day vision.  But dogs really don't rely as much on seeing as we do. 

    Their eyes are more on the side of their heads, rather than both at the front of the face like ours.  So their depth perception sucks anyway.  (Cockers not quite as badly as a breed with a narrow face like a sighthound or collie where the eyes are positioned truly at the 'side' of the head almost.)

    They rely on scent and sound way more than vision.  And scent really more than anything.  And a dog that goes gradually blind?  In total honestly?  He won't really even notice! 

    If you are forward thinking and train him with both touch and sound -- realizing that he will eventually BE blind ... and his hearing may decrease as he ages, so get him used to following touch signal and SCENT.  He'll be so prepared for blindness it won't slow him down hardly at all (IF at all).

    If you do some scent training with him -- you'll be amazed -- as his vision decreases, his scenting abilities will soar!  When we had Muffin the Intrepid, he had no ears -- literally his cocker ears were SO bad, we had to have his ears removed.  STONE 100% completely, fully deaf. 

    so?  He learned sign.  Shoot, he read lips better than most humans.  BUT ... that wasn't even his big deal.  HE became, **after** losing his hearing, our **watchdog**.  No joke -- he was NEVER wrong.  And the other two dogs relied completely on HIM.  Because his nose became so incredibly astute, to make up for the loss of hearing, that he was absolutely infallible. 

    One day he went running into the bedroom -- gave a big "BOOF" and came back out to get me.  I knew it wasn't anything 'threatening' because he wasn't freaked .. but man, there was something THERE he wanted to show me. 

    Shoot -- he sat and 'pointed' with his nose -- not something we taught -- but he was staring SO intently **in the dark** at the window there was no doubt he was convinced something was outside!  Shoot, my husband even went outside to look for an intruder ... nothing.  We could not figure what the deal was and he's still locked in that incredible sitting "point" lest we forget WHERE this was.

    Ok, finally I gave up -- I turned on the lights and lo and behold.  THERE.  Exactly where he was looking ... on the **outside** of the window (drapes closed by the way) was a freaking TREE FROG!

     Remember -- he had been in the living room and went on a dead run to the bedroom?  Yep -- he smelled that thing when it jumped on the window.  He sure didn't hear it and he certainly didn't SEE it with the drapes closed.  HE **sniffed** it.

    And remember I said -- the ears are more important than the eyes!  You won't even be able to tell he's 'blind' as long as you don't change furniture around to fool him.

    Now surgery would be *great*.  BUT ... I'd ask, first off, what the long term results would be.  Will the cataracts grow back?  Is this going to increase the chance of infection or dry eye?

    I'm not one to make them suffer -- (remember, I'm the one spending a ton of money to drive 1200 miles to 'rescue' a sick puppy!  we're more than willing to spend money!)  BUT only if it's really something that will gain something for them.  If that surgery is pretty well guaranteed to buy him 10 or more years of vision -- that's one thing.  But if they think the cataracts could recur in a couple of years?  Hmmmm -- be careful.  Don't bankrupt yourself for something pretty easily trained.

    Ask yourself what will truly be better.  You'll have to *deal* with his blindness.  You'll have to make sure no one "blindsides" him -- sneaking up on him to spook him (some folks/some kids think it's lots of fun to sneak up on the blind dog to make him jump and YES, people can be like that).  But if you take the time to train him to scent ... shoot, take him to tracking classes and let him EXCEL at it. If that organ that *has* to become stronger anyway, becomes trained to be absolutely ~excellent~ you will build his self-confidence in a big way.

    I don't agree with your husband -- that he's "just a dog" or "not a child".  He is a responsibility you took on.  BUT, at the same time neither is it worth financially bankrupting yourselves when you may need the money to actually save his life.

    What if ... in a few years ... he needs serious money spent on surgery for a luxating patella or some accident causes a problem?  Will you feel like you've already spent the 'limit' on this dog because you went into hock for his vision, so there won't be money *later* for a life-threatening thing?

    That's not MY call.  That's yours.  You know your own spouse -- but I'd quiz the vet thoroughly on this -- find out the cost of the drops (if they are for dry eyes they *are* pricey!) and factor that in.

    There are good rescues and bad ones.  But ANY rescue is always low on funds.  That $250 or $300 they may charge for a dog is *not* all inclusive and they don't make money.  But there are absolutely no 'guarantees' -- simply because most health issues are incredibly difficult to foresee even when you are looking for them!

    • Gold Top Dog

    i AM SORRY TO HEAR THIS ABOUT YOUR ABE.  RIGHT NOW I AM TRYING TO GET MY NEWLY DIAGNOSED DIABETES AND HYPOTHYROID UNDER CONTROL SO I CAN HAVE CATARACT SURGERY.  I HOPEYOU CAN FD A WAY THVETHE SURGERY DONE WITHOUT IT BEING SO DARN EXPENSIVE.

     I JUST HAD LAZER SURGERY YESTERDAY ON MY LEFT EYE TO STOP THE BLEEDING VESSELS (CAUSED BY DIABETES.)  IT TOOK ALL OF 5 MINUTES AND WAS $1500. DREAD WHAT THE CATARACT URGERY WILL RUN, EVEN TO WE HAV INSURANCE TO PAY MOST OF IT

    • Gold Top Dog

     

    calliecritturs
    Rescues **may** be able to identify some problems -- particularly a problem that is visible at that point in time.  But please don't lose sight of the fact that rescues are *volunteers*.  Generally people who like dogs and may love the breed -- but they aren't trained health practitioners. 

     I understand what you are saying, but Kenny also came from this rescue and they did a much more through job on making sure his heartworms were clear and that he was really ready to go medically. The foster parent he was with really worked on his behavior and crate training. Abe's fosters had no clue what they were doing. He had skin flaking on his back and when I asked about it, they had absolutley no idea what I was walking about. We cleared it up in a couple weeks with fish oil tablets. I have been watching the website for 3 years, and I know they check up on their eyes b/c I have seen requests about "let's help pay for dolly's eye surgery" or "let's help pay for bandit's ear ablation surgery." The vet hospitals they dogs are taken to do give them a discounted rate, but there are many cockers who have had cherry eye surgery, ear ablation surgery, hip surgery, etc b/c the rescue identified it and made sure it was taken care of.

     This rescue knows what they are doing and they were VERY careless about their disclosure with Abernathy's condition. I requested off of work so we could drive 6 hours to get him only to have them call and say a few days before "you know that Abe has a contagious skin infection. We wouldn't recommend that you get him now for the safety of your other dog." No, we didn't know that. I had to cancel my request to get off of work. His online profile didn't mention anything about a skin infection and normally they will say if a dog is sick, cherry eye, heart worms, etc. We left with very little paper work on him. With Kenny, we left with an entire packet of stuff dealing with his heart worm treatment, his diagnosis, the medication he was on, when he was cleared to go, complete shot records, and lots of other stuff. That was why we were initially were concerned with Abe and why we contacted the rescue about the fact that we had no shot records what so ever even though the website makes it clear that the animals they adopt out are spayed and neutered and are up to date on vaccinations.

     Despite the fact that they are a volunteer group, that does not excuse them and if we find paperwork from his old vet saying that Abe had the cataracts before we adopted them, they will need to step up to the plate. Even if they can only pay for 1/2 of it or part of it, that would be better than them denying their knowledge of a possible pre-existing condition.
     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Just don't think that legally you have any 'standing' -- because honestly you probably don't.  You can ask ... you can try ... but it all depends on local law and a very *few* state laws, and trying to get compensation for something like that would be unbelievably expensive and likely futile (remember, I'm a legal secretary and I see stuff like this ALL the time)

    One of the big failings in the wonderful world of rescue is that you're only as good as your volunteers.  You may have some foster homes that are superb -- BUT then those wind up getting too many dogs (*because* they are good they get all the 'difficult' ones) and then they try to break in new foster homes and people just aren't as saavy.

    My guess is you likely had a super GOOD experience the first time ... but it's likely not typical. 

    OR -- and boy this happens SOOO often -- things just plain change.  The folks who were "in charge" last year or the year before are *not* the same ones doing things now.  Even just a couple of months can make an enormous difference because those who "make things happen" get tired, they get "burn out" and may just plain leave (or get sick, get divorced, etc. -- boy it HAPPENS).

    A rescue group may even be pretty well established ... but in the process of trying to 'train' new foster folks -- it's ... just a process.  Someone has to have the time TO train, and then ... quite honestly ... some people may LOVE does and want to help, but they just plain don't have good judgment, or they don't have the "know how" that others do. 

    *talk* to them.  Bring to their attention that you feel like they really screwed this one up ... you feel like they just plain didn't vet him as well and YOU have gotten stuck with the consequences.

    But I can almost promise you that in the paper work you signed when you adopted him there is going to be a big fat huge disclaimer that says something like "we try to vet these animals but there will always be things we weren't aware of and we are not responsible for such things not covered in the basic veterinary wellness exam".

     In adopting this little pug we're going to get next week, even tho I'm a long-time friend of one of the area leaders I have had to demonstrate a lot of knowledge to be acceptable to them.  They come right out and demand to know how much YOU know about this breed.  And part of that is so they are covered legally -- because pugs (and in your case cockers) are prone to this and that ....(eye problems being among the most famous) and that pretty much lets them off the hook.

    I'm not trying to tell you they shouldn't be responsible ... but in the real "legal" world -- rescues are all too aware they are wide open to lawsuit, and everyone thinks they've "got a good case".  Usually no one wins, everyone spends a TON of money and extreme amounts of time away from work/home.  But this is why there's a ton of paperwork, this is why websites have disclaimers and political jargon a mile long. 

    a) because people are convinced in this day and age that they should be able to sue and 'fix' things; and

    b) rescues will financially go under in a heartbeat under that sort of onslaught and then the ones that really lose are the unplaced dogs.

    I'm not trying to be nasty here, please don't think that.  But like I said -- I see this ALL the time and I understand your frustration.  But it's almost impossible to sue a BREEDER, much less a rescue group that is not-for-profit.  You may hold someone morally accountable but it's probably not going to put money in your pocket. 

    And DO beware -- it's not always the best vets who work with rescues.  Lots of times rescues have to use who is inexpensive in order to get things done -- and that doesn't mean the vet is good at what he does.  Vets who are in demand don't do tons of rescue work because they don't have time.  Some of them do it out of the kindness of their hearts but I've seen it many times -- vets who are really super available to rescue, tend to be vets who have lagging practices and figure it's a great way to get new clients because they were "Fido's vet while he was in rescue and it was SO nice of them to work with that rescue group" people just stick with them because it's EASY.