Indie's got somethin' funky going on... *badrap*

badrap

So... Indie has had vaginal discharge since she was a little itty bitty baby.  My vets all told me that it would "take care of itself"...

Vaginal discharge - I have to wonder if they checked for yeast.  It's likely something that starts in the vulvar area ... and goes up from there, rather than originating in the vaginal area unless there is a cyst or something you can't see there.  

You did NOT spay her too early ... in fact, knowing what you now know about the demodex it was probably THE best thing you did for her *ever* because sexual maturation wrecks such incredible havoc with demodex.  You saved her a ton of pain and problems by spaying her. 

badrap

Right around the time the antibiotic course was over, the spot where the demodex was (right ventral abdomen just behind the elbow) REALLY flared up- she was scratching it all the time and it was really swollen, so I gave her a high-ish does of benedryl and started the Goodwinol again.  She's not scratching anymore, but I'm concerned about these 2 things happening at the same time.

What does anyone know about demodex flaring when antibiotics are being used to treat another condition? 

Any stressor will trigger demodex to worsen -- any infection, any yeast infection (the antibiotics kill the good AND bad bacteria so it's a further irritation/problem) -- along with any vaccine, growth, shoot even a weather change can cause demodex to rile up in some dogs. 

My guess is that since she's immune compromised (she's a demodex dog -- it's a genetic flaw in the immune system - not *your* fault in any way, shape or form - you've done everything right for her!!) it's probably allergy related. 

Allergies can take 100 forms.  They can attack any sort of mucus membranes -- the ear canals, vaginal/cervical area, nose, eustacian tubes -- anything.  You get any sort of allergy going on and it wrecks havoc with any of the mucus membranes and they are inflamed and just *waiting* for bacteria to happen.  Then yeast piles on top of it.

Has she had any vaccines in the past few weeks?  Has your weather changed? *your* schedule changes ... literally any kind of change at all) will trigger demodex.  It can forever in a demodex dog.  The girl infection undoubtedly triggered the demodex -- altho something 'else' could have triggered both of them.

The way I've always done it, if I know the dog is going to undergo any sort of a trigger event (like a vax they *must* have, being kenneled while we're gone, a seasonal change, etc.) I tend to go back to the baths/rinses really frequently to *avoid* the demodex being able to start.

If you've had any "changes" (any of the above or anything I can't even imagine) in the past couple of months it can set the body up for demodex and then all it needs is an "excuse" -- some little part of the skin that is irritated, a weak area, etc. and blam it will break out.

I'd have to wonder if that ventral spot wasn't actually a 'hot spot' in disguise and because it was a warm, moist, oilier than normal because it was irritated area *drew* demodex mites to the area as an easy target.

I'm not one to rush to food allergies -- but grain could be an irritant.  (I'm thinking yeast again -- are these infections at all yeasty??)

Have you seen any reddened skin or rashy areas elsewhere on the belly or feet?  (I'm trying to rule out something else here.)

badrap

I happen to think that the demodex popped up as a result of compromised immune system trying to fight off the vaginitis... anyone?

It was definitely a factor - my question to you is were there any other "changes" at that time -- if I were you I'd be looking at what ultimately caused the immune system to let it self down and allow the vaginal infection which gave rise to the demodex.  Does that make sense?

badrap

Also, does anyone have experience with vaginitis in a SPAYED female?  Am I doomed to this because I spayed her "too early"?

You did the only kind thing you could do -- and you probably didn't even know it at the time.  The demodex would have been unbelievably worse had you not spayed her early.  (I'm gonna spay Lulu early -- her demodex is already horrific, I can't let it get worse ... which it will if she goes into heat! *shudder*)

It's easy to cry spay incontinence because then the vet doesn't have to look further.  It doesn't have to be that she's 'leaking' urine -- it can simply be that she's transferred bacteria by her own licking, or for some reason a bit of urine is trapped in the vulvar fold (which is simply genetic, not spay-related). 

Probably if it were me, I'd have the vet do a urinalysis.  (not just a strip test) ... but I'd be looking for abnormalities in the urine -- the presence of bacteria, ph to high or low.  From anything I can find, it's the urine bacteria that *then* causes the vaginitis ... but yes the vaginitis would surely give rise to the demodex.

Actually most times, vaginitis does resolve completely after a heat cycle. The vulva matures "fills out" and any folds etc that were at fault tend to resolve at that time.

Demodex...I'll leave that for others.

but I know that vaginitis can be the very devil to treat in a spayed bitch and can be a lifelong issue as well. I might try giving her some parsely if she's leaky and also really do the whole cycle of antibiotics they give you...you don't want to half treat then have it come back twice as strong if you can help it.

ok.  Thanks, first of all!  and now, for more information-

Seth changed shifts, and YES, I believe the demodex popped up right after that.  There have been some household changes- I left my job, and then started another one.. blah blah..

As far as the vaginitis goes, I wouldn't go so far as to call her "leaky".  It's visible discharge to ME, but it's not like she's incontinent.  Not at all.  I'm concerned that she might be in some kind of discomfort, but because she's such a wild little puppy it isn't clear to me that she's not feeling well.  She *seems* to be feeling jusssst fine... LOL.

One other thing about the inflamed armpits that I forgot about- right about the same time this started happening, I had brought home yet another abandoned puppy who was infested with fleas.  Everyone in the house got capstar and frontline that day (I don't normally use them, but in this case, it was a protection thing).  I wonder if she doesn't have some flea allergy dermatitis?? (suggested by sera_j)......

I'm going to take her back to the vet anyway to see if the antibiotics were successful.  I know from experience that sometimes clavamox isn't strong enough for a rampant infection...

 ah Indie you cute baby!  I don't have a lot of great info but Bugsy had some localized demodex as a pup and I have worked real hard to strengthen his immune system.  The things that I think are really helping are fish oil (lots), Vit E and Vit A.  I also give the live yogurt.  I don't know how much she weighs now but I would start the above supplements and see if that helps

Best vibes for Indie

Probably not flea allergy dermatitis -- at least not a real 'allergy'.  Flea allergy dermatitis starts at the base of the tail -- why?  no one is really sure -- but it almost looks like a scabby hot spot ... rough at first and then it crawls forward on the low back and down the back end.  Then it will generalize if not treated.

It's  actually an allergy to the flea's SPIT.  Yes -- truly.  it is literally a toxic reaction to the flea spit and ONE bite will result in months and months of agony. 

However -- that being said -- it could have been a reaction to either the capstar (you can have a reaction to any drug at all) or the frontline (if the skin was a tiny bit sore it can then make it worse)

The other thing to 'suspect' -- chemicals.  Things like something you put in your laundry (like fabric softenener) or something you clean with (think of stuff she lies on) --

The reason I was asking about the lower belly -- demodex dogs can be hard-wired to also be allergic (contact allergy) to certain plant material -- St. Augustine sod, wandering jew, night-blooming jasmine, poison oak -- there are zillions of them. 

If you can go back and do the benzoyl peroxide baths with the tea tree rinses I suggest, and boost the immune system with some herbals (there is no pharmaceutical that does that -- I don't mean something like ivermectin that will FORCE the immune system "on" but rather an herb that will encourage the body to do it FOR ITSELF) -- sometimes you just have to settle things back down and get on track before it escalates.

Do you have my article?  If you want to email me I'll send it -- can't be a PM - it's a Word document.