Dog Community

Vaccinating and Titering...Just Curious

Posted : 5/26/2008 9:08:04 PM

So this is kind of a spin-off from the "Which Vaccinations" thread. I am curious if any of you who stop vaccinating after a certain age ALSO do not titer? It honestly never occurred to me to be an option, so I am just wondering if anyone does this. I have always thought of it as an either/or situation...i.e. either vaccinate, OR titer. But is it?

My dogs will not be receiving any more vaccinations, with the exception of rabies, but I plan to titer every 3 years from here on out. But, let's say hypothetically, if they are never boarded (which they aren't), don't go to doggy daycare (which they don't), and if I am not involved in any sports or showing or basically anything that would require "proof" that vaccinations are current...then is there really any need to titer, other than for peace of mind and just to be sure? I'm not saying that's not important, by the way! I am honestly just wondering what everyone's opinion on this is. I would think it would make one's vet record look bad, at the very least. But maybe that's not a concern for everyone. Thoughts? :-)

erica1989

Posted : 5/26/2008 11:04:25 PM

I take my dog every where, and I do vaccinate him. He is constantly coming in contact with other dogs, and he does go to work with me (kennel). He goes to the park (a few different ones) doggy beach, hiking with me, and to the petstore. I'm also constantly bringing dogs home from work - so I am a bit paraniod. I work with dogs with parvo - and I've seen a few adult dogs come down with it, that were vaccinated. No vaccine is 100% guarenteed, just like in humans. I could not afford to get his blood titered this year, but maybe next year. I do the 3 year rabies.

With my cats, I only vaccinate for rabies (3 year, county law). none have gotten their FVRCPs since they were little. I don't see the need to vaccinate them for this, and I've never had them titered. My cats stay indoors.

calliecritturs

Posted : 5/26/2008 11:17:18 PM

I don't vax (Billy can't ever be vaccinated EVER again -- it would likely kill him because it would probably cause the IMHA to recur -- and this isn't a 'holistic' vet telling me this -- this is the U of FL Vets and every other vet he' s seen).

But we do pet therapy and most of the facilities we visit NEED paper for their records, so I titer to give them the 'proof' they need for their records of sufficiency.

You don't have to titer -- the reasons for it are many tho:

1. it gives you a trail for *your own records* so you know how your dog's immunity tracks -- for example, this year Kee is gonna have to have a distemper shot and Luna is gonna need a parvo shot because both titered a bit low last time.

2. it gives most vets peace of mind as well as you -- this way they know the general state of your animal's health as well as you -- it tends to at least let them feel the attempt has been made to ascertain 'need'.

3. If, in a particular year, suddenly a result is vastly different, it can also be a clue you need to investigate further - has something cause the immune system to be compromised?

You don't *have* to. Not at all, but if you don't it just becomes a guessing game. That, I honestly believe, is a bit dangerous.

My point in not vaxing every year isn't to be cheap -- it's to benefit my dogs by not OVER-vaccinating them. I'm willing to spend the money TO titer to keep track of that. Make sense?

GypsyNBeau

Posted : 5/27/2008 10:39:10 PM

Thanks both of you for your input. :-) I realize that vaccinations are not 100% and that titering enables you to keep tabs on where your dog(s) stand, and I certainly agree that that is important for many reasons. Smile But sometimes I see posts that make me wonder if some people do things differently or are confident enough with the status of their particular dogs that they don't feel the need to titer...so I just thought I would ask! This is just something I have been thinking about lately, and I always like to see how different people...do things differently. Wink

Now in my case, I do plan to titer my dogs, as I already mentioned, but I can't help but wondering if it is really necessary for my older dog. She is almost 9 years old and was vaccinated yearly for about the first 6-7 years of her life (because I didn't know any better then). I really feel like she has been sufficiently vaccinated to last her the rest of her life and more...but as I said, I am still going to titer, simply because it will make me feel better. (And of course she will receive rabies every 3 years).

calliecritturs

My point in not vaxing every year isn't to be cheap -- it's to benefit my dogs by not OVER-vaccinating them. I'm willing to spend the money TO titer to keep track of that. Make sense?

That absolutely makes sense, and I agree! :-)

erica1989

Posted : 5/27/2008 10:54:34 PM

calliecritturs
My point in not vaxing every year isn't to be cheap -- it's to benefit my dogs by not OVER-vaccinating them. I'm willing to spend the money TO titer to keep track of that.

I'm not trying to be cheap with my dog. I cannot afford to get the titers done, there's no way around that. I need to save every penny for school and such. I'm not willing to 'chance' it by not vaccinating, so I vaccinated. Maybe next year I'll have more money in the bank to send out his blood, but this year was not the case. I would like to not have to vaccinate, but until I can do that - I need to cover all my options and vaccinate. Dogs have been vaccinated yearly for many, many years now - and they lived for a long time.

calliecritturs
if you don't it just becomes a guessing game. That, I honestly believe, is a bit dangerous.

So to aviod the guessing games- I vaccinate.

Jewlieee

Posted : 5/28/2008 6:30:32 AM

I would be fairly comfortable not doing vaccinations after 11 yrs old, maybe even 10. I would not stop before that though. However, since my dogs are often around other dogs and get boarded from time to time, they are always vaccinated (because its required)

BCMixs

Posted : 5/28/2008 9:44:11 AM

Woobie's distemper and parvo results were right on the line, so I'll be titering those yearly. If it drops below that line, I'll booster. His rabies were super high and he was boostered with the 3 year shot, per law, so I'm good on that front for the next 3 years. That gives me the money (the rabies was the most expensive titer) to have Indie titered when his next batch is due, which is about 2 1/2 years. I expect him to be well covered since he was vacced up the wazoo before I got him and then again when I got him because I had no records. But, since it's individual to each dog's system, he could be low, I'll feel better titering just to see where he's at.

I haven't titered my cats and they won't be getting any vacs again unless something happens that they need it (like boarding). Miss Kitty is 14 and I don't want to tax her system. Neither of them go outside or anywhere and I don't feel it's necessary.

minimom

Posted : 5/28/2008 9:45:18 AM

My 11 year old dog received annual boosters for the first 5 years of his life and it was about that time that I started learning about the dangers of over vaccination. I titered him one year after his final vaccination and the titers came back high. He has not been vaccinated (except rabies) or titered since. My 6 year old dog received his one year booster after his initial puppy vacs, was titered a year later and has not been vaccinated or titered since. Since he has only received one adult booster vac in his life, I was seriously considering giving the core boosters to my youngest dog about a year ago, but he had a severe reaction to his rabies vac, so he's not getting anymore vacs again - if I can help it. I feel like in my situation, the risk of contracting a disease is low compared to the risk of a reaction and/or long term consequences of over vaccination.

I would titer for the paperwork, if I needed it, but here's the thing about subsequent titers....

(Disclaimer, the following is my understanding of how vacs/titers work. I'm not stating it as absolute fact, and I've probably way over simplified, but I'm just throwing it out for discussion. If I'm stating something wrong, feel free to correct me)

When you administer a vaccination, you are administering the virus in a non lethal dose. This challenges the dog's immune system to produce antibodies and a healthy immune system will continue to produce those antibodies whenever it comes into contact with that particular virus, for however long...3 years, 6 years, life...the jury is still out on exactly how long.

But the immune system only kicks into gear and circulates a high level of antibodies when it needs to...when it comes into contact with a virus. So high titers would tell you that the dog has recently come into contact with the virus, either through a vaccination or through the environment, and that the immune system reacted properly. But what does a low titer tell you?

In my case, it wouldn't really tell me much...a low titer could mean that they need to be revaccinated or it could tell me that they just haven't come into contact with a virus for a long time, which in our situation is not unreasonable, since I don't take them to places where strange dogs are or are likely to have been.

On the other hand, those who go to dog parks, kennels, events, etc., are much more likely to come into contact with a virus...and I think a low titers would make me more nervous in that situation. So, it really is an individual decision based on each person's own unique circumstances.

What if you get a high titer on say Parvo, but a low titer on Distemper? Would you vaccinate for Distemper, but not Parvo? Or would it be logical to infer that the immune system is working properly, and the dog just hasn't come into contact with the Distemper virus recently? I don't know the answer. My youngest dog actually did have a high Parvo titer and a much lower Distemper titer when I had him titered, and that titer was done exactly a year after his previous boosters.

Another question I'd like to throw out to the masses. Does anyone know of any otherwise healthy adult dogs (that have received at least the puppy shots and first year booster, but no longer receive annual boosters) that have contracted Parvo or Distemper? I'm on a few dog lists, and in all the years I've been visiting them, I think I only remember one instance of a dog older than a year contracting Parvo (it was actually on this list). And I don't recall a single instance of Distemper. And that involves a lot of dogs that no longer receive core boosters, but are involved in a lot of activities that would likely involve coming into contact with a virus. I have, on the other hand, heard of countless adverse reactions to vaccines, ranging from mild to severe, including my own little guy who nearly died of anaphylactic shock.

BCMixs

Posted : 5/28/2008 10:03:02 AM

minimom

In my case, it wouldn't really tell me much...a low titer could mean that they need to be revaccinated or it could tell me that they just haven't come into contact with a virus for a long time, which in our situation is not unreasonable, since I don't take them to places where strange dogs are or are likely to have been.

On the other hand, those who go to dog parks, kennels, events, etc., are much more likely to come into contact with a virus...and I think a low titers would make me more nervous in that situation. So, it really is an individual decision based on each person's own unique circumstances.

That's my situation. My dogs go to all those places and Woobie's low results make me a *little* nervous. I understand there's a 2nd level of immunity that can't be measured (can't remember the technical term) that will likely kick in and provide protection, but for my own peace of mind, I'll booster when it drops below that acceptable line.

minimom

What if you get a high titer on say Parvo, but a low titer on Distemper? Would you vaccinate for Distemper, but not Parvo? Or would it be logical to infer that the immune system is working properly, and the dog just hasn't come into contact with the Distemper virus recently? I don't know the answer. My youngest dog actually did have a high Parvo titer and a much lower Distemper titer when I had him titered, and that titer was done exactly a year after his previous boosters.

In that case, I'd just booster the one that was low. I'm looking to minimize the # of things going into him unnecessarily, but also want to feel I'm being safe and providing him with needed protection, given where he goes and what he's exposed to.

minimom

Another question I'd like to throw out to the masses. Does anyone know of any otherwise healthy adult dogs (that have received at least the puppy shots and first year booster, but no longer receive annual boosters) that have contracted Parvo or Distemper? I'm on a few dog lists, and in all the years I've been visiting them, I think I only remember one instance of a dog older than a year contracting Parvo (it was actually on this list). And I don't recall a single instance of Distemper. And that involves a lot of dogs that no longer receive core boosters, but are involved in a lot of activities that would likely involve coming into contact with a virus. I have, on the other hand, heard of countless adverse reactions to vaccines, ranging from mild to severe, including my own little guy who nearly died of anaphylactic shock.

I don't know of any who've contracted either of those diseases, but I've received conflicting info from vets on the parvo disease, so I remain a bit confused on that one. Yet another reason why I'll be boostering him if needed. Woobie had parvo as a puppy in the shelter and survived. More than one vet told me that makes him immune and he doesn't need to be vacced for it. Another vet said he could get it again if his immunity dropped and made him susceptible. (scratches head) And at the shelter where I volunteer, they're super cautious about the pups and parvo, but not so much with the older dogs. I didn't get that one. The minute a pup has diarrhea, they do the test, but adult dogs with chronic diarrhea get a shrug of the shoulders. hmmm... When I asked if they should be tested for parvo, the response (not from the vet though) was that adult dogs don't really get it because they're vacced for it when they come in.

It can be very confusing. I wonder about the things I'm not able to titer for, like parainfluenza, should I vaccinate for that or not? I think each pet owner has to try to educate themselves (if they choose to) and find a vet they feel comfortable working with and choose a protocol that they can live with. My original vet wasn't very supportive but a holistic vet I found was.

calliecritturs

Posted : 5/28/2008 11:56:30 AM

minimom

But the immune system only kicks into gear and circulates a high level of antibodies when it needs to...when it comes into contact with a virus. So high titers would tell you that the dog has recently come into contact with the virus, either through a vaccination or through the environment, and that the immune system reacted properly. But what does a low titer tell you?

It's not that the immune systm *only* kicks into gear when it needs to but it CAN be one of the reasons for high titers. Billy has never been 'exposed' to rabies and he hasn't been bitten by an animal that may carry the dormant disease. BUT becauseofthe IMHA we can't ever vax him again, so last year my regular vet sent a rabies titer away to Kansas and it was super high. Billy hasn't been exposed at all -- he just plain titered as THAT resistant to the disease.

minimom
What if you get a high titer on say Parvo, but a low titer on Distemper? Would you vaccinate for Distemper, but not Parvo? Or would it be logical to infer that the immune system is working properly, and the dog just hasn't come into contact with the Distemper virus recently?

It's more likely, at least by what I've been told and by every seminar I've been to on the subject, that the higher titer was the result of early exposure, not necessarily recent exposure. But somehow the body has perhaps defeated the disease. But not necessarily recently. In all the years that I, personally, have titered my dogs I've never seen the titers suddenly get 'better'. But by keeping track of them you can see them diminish occasionally.

I've really been sweating this -- because of Billy's situation. WE KNOW there was parvo in the neighborhood 2 years ago. So I've been worried but can't vax.

But in reference to the mention of "secondary" immunity above (sorry, I'm not good enough at this to quote that directly as well from another post) -- the way it was described to me by Dr. Demers (homeopathic vet -- does a lot of work in homotoxicology) there is something called immunity-memory. Literally that when the titers diminish enough so that they don't "look" sufficient, that doesn't mean that dog will ever contract that disease. In fact, exposure to that disease will usually result in immunity because altho the immunity isn't immediately visible the cell mapping will recognize those disease cells as something it has combatted in the past and will respond with immunity.

Now this isn't something that has been "tested" and studied. I do have some hand-outs from U of FL seminars I've attended on vaccines and it supports that.

Another variable that hasn't been mentioned here -- the "combo" shots that vets so frequently use now -- those are KILLED vaccines. Meaning the disease cells that are injected are actually 'dead' disease cells. So the immunity produced to those vaccines is actually less lasting. That's one of the reasons why vaxing with a modified live virus (MLV) parvo and distemper are often recommended by those who favor titers -- because the immunity obtained is far longer lasting.

The problem with the parainfluenza portions of the combo vax is that they are outdated strains. Those strains of parainfluenza used in those combo vaccines havent' been seen in common practice in 20 years or more. The *hope* is that it will provide immunity against other strains which is hit and miss.

The other thing I'll mention is that the most common "reaction' to a vaccine is often against the adjutant (in over-simplified terms that's the thing that gets the information TO the cells).

The other question raised above that I don't think has been answered is what if parvo titers high or low and ditemper registers "opposite" You CAN vax for just one of those. Both are available as single vaccines. Often they 'combo' parvo/distemper in a MLV shot -- but that is a LOT of vaccine to give at one time. I'd always prefer the singles.

GypsyNBeau

Posted : 5/29/2008 7:33:17 AM

calliecritturs

Another variable that hasn't been mentioned here -- the "combo" shots that vets so frequently use now -- those are KILLED vaccines. Meaning the disease cells that are injected are actually 'dead' disease cells. So the immunity produced to those vaccines is actually less lasting. That's one of the reasons why vaxing with a modified live virus (MLV) parvo and distemper are often recommended by those who favor titers -- because the immunity obtained is far longer lasting.

Good point. I had not been thinking about that, so I'm glad you brought it up. :)

AgileGSD

Posted : 5/29/2008 8:29:34 AM

erica1989
I work with dogs with parvo - and I've seen a few adult dogs come down with it, that were vaccinated. No vaccine is 100% guarenteed, just like in humans. I could not afford to get his blood titered this year, but maybe next year. I do the 3 year rabies.

Some dogs do not have normal immune systems and for whatever reason are unable to form immunity from vaccines. These dogs will be unable to form immunity no matter if they are vaccinated once or one hundred times. I knew someone who had GSDs from the same line that could not develop a titer for rabies, despite repeated vaccination. Most likey the vaccinated adult dogs you came in contact with who had parvo (the question is always there as to if they really had parvo as well) were dogs who for whatever reason couldn't develop immunity. Since they developed parvo as an adult, that is another sign there was likely something off about the functioning of their immune systems. Parvo generally affects puppies due to the undeveloped immune system and the state of their GI tract.

I vaccinate my puppies for parvo and distemper. There is a lot of parvo in my area but distemper in dogs is nearly unheard of. I know people who have worked at vet's offices for 10+ years and never saw distemper or saw only one case, compared to many cases a year of parvo. But if puppies will be going to new homes out of state, I like them to have distemper protection as well just in case. I give the series of those vaccines and then once my dogs are adults I don't revaccinate them and I don't titer them. My adults dogs have been directly exposed to parvo (through parvo puppies living here) and not one developed it, even the ones who were older and had not been vaccinated for many years. I give the three year rabies vaccine, although I do tend to stop with that too when they are around 8 or 9 years old.

AgileGSD

Posted : 5/29/2008 8:35:48 AM

BCMixs
Woobie had parvo as a puppy in the shelter and survived. More than one vet told me that makes him immune and he doesn't need to be vacced for it. Another vet said he could get it again if his immunity dropped and made him susceptible. (scratches head)

According to Dr. Jean Dodds puppies that had parvo will have immunity for life. Also adults dogs are very unlikely to develop clinical symptoms of parvo anyway.