Help My dog please - possible IBD what to do?

    • Silver

    Help My dog please - possible IBD what to do?

    My dog is 3 1/2 yrs old and she has had diarrhea since late September.  She is severly emaciated and now she does not want to eat much.  I think because it makes her so sick and she knows it comes right out of her. 

    She has had all kinds of tests done that are all negative.  She has not had endoscopy because it costs 2000.00 and because I dont think she would live through it.  She is on 5mg of Prednisone, vit b12 and pencillan injections daily.  Along with a soothing pill for her tummy.  She is currently eating Nat Bal Fish and Potato when she eats it.  I have been also feeding salmon and talapia - with pumpkin.  I tried green beans she ate them but they caused worse diarrhea.  I tried flax seed ground last night but even worse runny diarrhea this morning and all night.  Her stools were getting like toothpaste consistency from pudding but now they are gone again.  She is on probiotics, prebiotics, herbal tinctures, digestive enzymes - all with her food.  I tried Europa with salmon - she ate it for about 2 days but then stopped and nothing digests inside of her - its all whole when it comes out.  Blood tests show her mildy anemic but all other organs are fine...

    Prior to this last summer she was eating IVD Fish and Potato and on Atopica/clycosporine and ketoconizole for allergies - I was weaning her off of that and trying to switch diets when it all started and now I cant get it stopped.

    Thanks for reading and if you have any other ideas  that I might try - I fear that she will not live much longer if I cant find an answer somewhere.

    Desperately praying for her - Misty's Mom

    • Gold Top Dog

    I am sorry but don't have any advise.  I know there are some on this board who will.  I just wanted to let you know that I really feel for you and am praying for you.  I hope you find an answer really soon.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Emma got to the point where she was emaciated and pooping out pieces of  kibble.

     

    I quit feeding ALL commercial foods, for a long time. I started cooking for her. It made all the difference in the world. Eventually (after she'd had some time to heal, and gained some weight), we went to raw. She's a very healthy weight, and has mostly normal poops, now.

     

    I'd ditch the commercial food and feed a bland diet, for a while. I wouldn't worry about balance, much, until the dog is more stable. She isn't absorbing the food, anyways.  

    • Silver

    Hi,

    I have tried that too - but she wont eat usually.  Now this morning I fed her frozen fish with some pumpkin mixed in.  What did you start feeding when you went off all dog food?  And how did you keep your dog eating?

    Thank you for your help!

    • Gold Top Dog

    I started with fish and sweet potato. I tough loved her into eating. I'd been begging and pleading with her, to please eat. She got down to 13.5 lbs. She's 20, now. I gave up. I quit caring. I put down food, five times a day. If she didn't start on it within 15 minutes, I picked it up and put it away. She started eating, with gusto, and now I have to watch her weight. It took two years to get to that point, but she's finally ok.

    • Silver

     

    Hi, any particular fish you used?  Also did you cook it or feed it raw?  You mentioned sweet potato - how much in relation to the fish?

    I am kind of at that point as well - I just worry that she will not eat and then slip even further...  Although every one says they will not starve themselves?

    thanks!

    • Gold Top Dog

    Cooked. Never, ever raw for a dog that is so far down. When they're that skinny, and that sick, their immune systems can't be any good.

     

    I used any kind of whitefish. Cod, mostly. More sweet potato than fish. My dog also has a liver problem, so she needed somewhat low protein. I started with Dr. Dodds liver recipe as an... inspiration. After she started eating the fish and sweet potato, I added in the other veggies, then the supplements. Worked great, for Em. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Jennie's given you a good start -- but i've got some question (just cos I don't know you at all and don't want to make assumptions).

    That's a huge assortment of stuff you've tried.  What sort of vet are you using?  Were the alternative things you've tried with a vet's instruction or were you simply getting desperate? (No condemnation -- I've been there *done* it too).

    Has there been any diagnosis -- specifically with regard to the cause of all of this?  Is it immune-mediate?  (I know pred is often used and for many different reasons.)

    Specifically what holistic vets have you tried?  I have had superb experiences with TCVM (traditional Chinese veterinary medicine -- http://www.tcvm.com is the Chi Institute - a good qualifying agency) and I can tell you that it is really good for such things as IBD.

    My experience with dogs is limited for IBD but I have the same malady myself and I have to control it with diet and some herbs and acupuncture.  For me commercially prepared foods and preservatives are the kiss of death. 

    And yep, I home cook for three dogs because they're all healthier on it.  I avoid a ton of health problems that way. 

     Fish -- whitefish is easy and usually very well tolerated.  It's also a 'small' fish so your mercury risk is lower.  Jack mackerel and sardines are also something most dogs LOVE.

    I'd have to say I'd advocate 'tough love' as well as far as meals.  You won't know until you try.  In honesty, your 'worry' about feeding and what the dog eats and how much -- most dogs will avoid food just because it makes YOU nervous.  And quite honestly ... they tend to be pretty good at figuring out fast what made them not feet good. 

    That's not a blow-off -- but think about dogs' noses for a minute.  They know what in their poop is still there that went in via kibble.  They know what smells weird and what smells sick. 

    The stuff you were talking about is an interesting mix of fibrous and non-fibrous.  Green beans have fiber -- and that ... in an abundance (particularly if they were canned green beans which are salty and increased desire for water) may have contributed to diarreha. 

    BUT ALSO -- do you realize (and again, I'm not fussing at you -- I don't know you so I'm just trying to emphasize here) that when you give dogs veggies -- like green beans for example - you have to mash/cook them in order to break down the cellulose sufficiently for them to be digested?

    Dogs often like canned green beans and raw carrot -- and as treats they are kind of a no-brainer. BUT don't expect them to derive nutrition from them because they can't break it down enough.

    I use green beans in cooked food all the time, BUT I use frozen french-cut green beans (because I'm essentially lazy and it's less work for ME) and then I mash the heck out of them with a potato masher [granted, for a lazy woman I don't own a food processor nor a dishwasher so a potato masher works for ME *grin*]. 

    This week's food at our house is kale (I get it pre-chopped up in a cello bag but it takes a TON of cooking still to break it down enough so I can mash it up and break it up further), sweet potato, brocco-slaw (another EZ thing for me -- it's broccoli, carrots, cabbage all shredded), pumpkin and added calcium citrate plus ground beef and chicken and tilapia (about 6 pounds of meat total).  My meat/veg ratio is about 40/60 roughly.  Meat is added last.  However, this week there's about 10% grain (oatmeal) in there just because my holistic vet wants me to right now. 

    It's different EVERY week.  That's how I arrive at balance.

    I can't really give you solid advice because I don't know where all the meds/herbs, etc. have come from and on whose advice. 

    If you have never tried acupuncture it can be amazing.  There can be so many things going on -- is it a large intestine or small intestine problem (when there is diarreha is it explosive or just 'pudding' poop?)  Or it can be a case of "leaky gut" (closely related to allergies and IBD) or many other things. 

    Have you done an elimination diet?  That would likely be the first thing *I* would try.  Yep -- it needs to be homecooked - you can NOT do a true pure elmination diet on commerical food. 

    See, in honesty, it's my opinion (and I stress "opinion" not fact) that a whole lot of "food allergies" aren't true allergies to a 'food' but often are intolerances of additives, preservatives and such things.  Just switching from a chicken food to a lamb food and deciding the dog must be "allergic" to chicken really doesn't do a thing (unless you really do a food trial) because it can simply be a chemical in the food.  And depending on where your food comes from, it can even be a chemical on the food before it gets TO the dog food company (a lot of companies get away with not listing things like BHA, BHT and ethoxyquin in their food because their meat source is treated with it before it comes to the food maker).

    Now before 10000 people jump on me, I'm not saying there are no 'food allergies' -- I'm simply saying often they are attributed to the wrong thing, and if that dog is stabilized and the whole allergy situation is calmed down it can simply be a situation where everything and anything 'new' that was added to a dog's diet simply became a potential 'allergen' and because the body was so irritated and in such a high level of allergy response the body simply lumped all the 'new' in with 'bad'.

    But when you get a dog down to just two 'novel' ingredients (and it doesn't even have to contain a meat -- but I've seen dogs started on an elmination diet of white potato and green peas!!) **with the advice of a good holistic vet who knows diet stuff** then you get the dog stable and go from there. 

    And yeah -- maybe that dog *is* allergic to chicken or soy or whatever. 

    Often vets try to use specialty diets (like Hills Z-diet) as an elmination trial -- the food in Z-diet is so broken down molecularly that it isn't even perceived by the body as 'food' so altho it contains a plethera of 'allergens' the body gets 'fooled' for a while - but it is NOT an elmination diet.

    If you can wade thru this and share some answers with me I'll try and help some more.  It's tough to get off the merry-go-round particularly when you are terrified you're gonna lose your dog.  (BEEN THERE too *sheesh*)

    We're not vets (altho a couple lurk now and then) but we can be some darned good support and a whole LOT of us have dogs with allergies and "issues" (ahh "issues" -- it's SUCH a lovely word with a zillion definitions, right?).  But it makes us compassionate.  So I hope this is at least the beginning of some help for you.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    I'm so sorry you're having to go through this.  I know how terribly frustrating it can be and how worrying.  I rescued Indie and he was having alot of the symptoms and problems you describe.  We're still working on figuring out what will work for him long term and be as close to nutritionally balanced as possible.  Have you tried fiber?  With Indie, he requires really high levels of fiber to slow down his system long enough for his body to absorb enough nutrients and calories to put on weight.  He was also severely emaciated.  What's worked well for him is Purina OM which seems crazy because it's an overweight formula, but it's super high in fiber and lower in fat and protein than other foods.  I've found that Indie is super sensitive to the fat and protein in his diet and we literally have to sneak it in one tiny milligram at a time and the minute we pass that invisible threshold, it's diarrhea city and back to square one all over again.  I'm working with a veterinary nutritionist to develop a homecooked diet that will give him what he needs but it's slow going. 

    I don't know where you're at, but if you have a nearby veterinary university, you might call and ask about their clinical nutrition services.  My consult and specially designed diet only cost me $100 and if I want to develop other recipes later for variety, they will only cost me another $25 each.  Although, I think once I find that perfect diet that's going to get him where he needs to be, I'm not likely to change it up much because it's been such a long and frustrating journey.

    I hope all the best for you and your dog.  If finances restrict your options, I'd take the advice given previously and go very slow with one bland ingredient at a time and then determine which things your dog can tolerate and then go from there.  You really can develop a darn near balanced diet with one protein source, one carb source and some supplements to fill in the gaps.  If it's all your dog can tolerate, don't feel that you *have* to come up with something super fancy, sometimes the simplest route is the one that works best.  That's what I've had to do with both my dogs, start with an elimination diet, get a base level that at least kept their stools semi-solid and then try to go from there.

    Good luck!

    ETA: I had to do an elimination diet with Woobie and we did use Hill's z/d which gave him firm stools for the very first time.  He's still on it as we transition to 100% homecooked.  But the thing to remember is that a true elimination is going to take at least 12 weeks (that's what my vets said anyway) to get rid of all the reactions your dog may be having to what it's been exposed to already.  Then, once your dog is stable for a good 3-4 months, you try adding a tiny amount of just ONE thing and see how it goes.  It took a long time and lots of trials but I discovered Woobie "reacts" (won't call it an "allergy";) to anything with feathers but handles beef just fine.  Salmon has worked well for both my dogs (canned) but with Indie we have to watch those protein levels again, so even though he can handle it, for him quantity is an issue (and fat).  It can be very overwhelming and daunting.  That's why I prefer to have a vet that can hold my hand and walk me through it.  More than once I've gone in, frustrated and in tears and said "Just tell me what to do!!!"

    • Silver

    Hi,

    Thank you both for such wonderful advice.

    I will answer your questions - let me tell you a new development first.  I took Misty to a internist specialist today for yet another 2nd (more like 20th) opinion.  He feels that from her body, blood work, symptoms she has Lymphangiectasia.  He said of course without biopsy there is no way to tell but all things point to this.  He thought that if it were IBD the pred would have helped - now it could be some type of diet intolerance or a killer IBD but he thinks the other.  So now that I "kinda" have something to go on - we are going with a clean slate (so to speak).  She is on pred 5mg 1xday, metronidizole (started tonight) 1/4capsule 1xday, 1/4 pepcid 2 times a day, sub cu fluids daily and he gave her a vitamin B-12 injection that will last 1 week today.  He also said with this disease (and its a bad one according to him) LOW LOW LOW almost no FAT is needed.  So we are doing an elimination diet - she is going to be on Whitefish - dried out as much as I can and oatmeal or rice if she will eat them.  And a little pumpkin again if she will eat it.  This is going to be for couple weeks and he said we would see what happens.  He told me that she is so bad that her prognosis is poor but not zero - which I knew from dealing with this for so long.  To look at her you know she is very very sick. 

    So we got home and the poor little thing was starved - I made her Talapia and put some pumpkin in it - she was not really enticed but when she started to realize I was not giving her anything else she ate some.  I gave her her metro and pepcid and thought well here we go agina.  I did not have any rice so I made her a small amount of oatmeal and I put some honey on it (not sure if that was ok but she would not eat it plain).  She ate the whole bowl full.  She still seemed hungry so I made her another pc of fish - Orange Roughy - less fat on the package.  She ate about 1/2 of it and another bowl of oatmeal...  Now she is resting with a very full tummy I am sure.  Now I KNOW there is no way that oatmeal could have already been down her and out the back end but.... her stools were runny and looked just like it!!!  Am I losing my mind - how can that happen in less then 2 hours?  I am going to search the web for some help with this disease and some recipes on how to cook for her. 

    The thing is on fish her stools were semi soft - like between pudding and toothpaste for consistency...  So I know fish is good but the poor baby is starving and I want to give her something that will "fill" her up too... like the oatmeal but I am not sure she can handle it.  I will go tomorrow to get rice and try that - the last time I tried that it came out "whole" undigested so I am not sure what to do. 

    Now to your questions.  I will go back and post to those because I cant see them on here.

    Again thank you for any and all advice - if you have specific history around the Lymph-disease please by all means weigh in!

    Have a good night.

    Misty's mom

    • Silver

    Hi,

    OK here is my best answers for you and no reason to feel bad for asking I am happy to answer and so happy you have taken the time to offer me help.

    I am using a Holistic vet - all meds, herbs, etc were from her direction and another vet her partner whom I had accupuncture done on Misty from.

    No diagnosis - not really just impecially treating now because I can not afford the biopsy that would give us a diagnosis.

    The green beans - I did cut up they were canned and no I did not mash them - probably why they came out whole :(!

    Poop is pudding poop - always oozing out (sorry for the description) with ALOT of fluid with it.  She can lie on a blanket and there will be about a small amount of stool but around it will be a dinner size plate of wetness - not urine but just a fluid that seems to always be oozing out of her bottom. :(

    I agree with you and so did this vet on the elimination diet - he said no commercial diet is going to give you the "true" elimination that I need.  So I am going to stick with fish - it seems to be the best at getting her stools to some type of form.  As for the carb source -not sure yet (see my other note about oatmeal)...  Pumpkin seems to work good with her but she is not that fond of it so getting her to take it is not easy... 

    I think this is wonderful how people reach out and help others in need and I appreciate every one's comments - bad or good...  I just want my dog back - the one I remember from last summer and I want her to live longer then 3 1/2 years so I am desperate in trying to "heal" her...  maybe with all of this advice I will find the "majic" solution to this and in a few months I can pass on what I have learned to someone else in need....

    Thank you for asking and offering and listening,

    Misty's mom! (still praying)

    • Gold Top Dog

    Wow.  I don't know what that is but it doesn't sound good.  Pumpkin works well for alot of people but my 2 guys get runny on it.  So if it doesn't seem to be helping, ask the vet if you can use a different veggie.  My Woobie gets runny on white rice, white and sweet potatoes.  But he seems to do well on brown rice (I think it's the extra fiber) and does well with oatmeal.  I wonder if your vet would allow either a beef, chicken or veggie broth that has no fat or super low fat for you to mix with the rice or oatmeal to flavor it and hopefully get Misty interested in it.  I also  make a slurry for my guys of uncooked frozen peas and baby carrots that I puree in the food processor with low sodium beef broth and then I add salmon and psyllium husks for the fiber that Indie needs.  If you vet approves veggies such as pumpkin but it doesn't work for Misty, maybe he would approve of something like the peas, carrots and broth mash for her.

    I hope she does well on the new regimine and gets back to "pudding" (LOL!) soon!  I know what it's like, believe me.  Although we don't really have a diagnosis either, Indie has been lucky and has improved with the fiber and we've only had a couple of setbacks (usually related to either stress or fat).

    Please keep us posted, we're pulling for you!

    • Gold Top Dog

     Overcook your carbs. Cook them to absolute mush. When your oatmeal is "done", stir in another cup of water. Keep doing that until it looks like paste. You want all of the cellulose and fiber broken down, so your dog has to do very, very little to process it. Same thing with rice. Sweet potato or potato should be boiled for a very long time, and mashed.

     

    Do you have a cooling rack, for cakes? Maybe cooking your fish on that (so it has LOTS of room to drain) will help reduce the fat content?