Ruptured CCL (GypsyNBeau)

I would think more than a "week" of subdued activity would be in the cards. I am not a vet, so don't take my word as stone, but I have a dog who has had 2 CCL injuries (one left one right) and I have been around horses with tendon/ligament issues for years. Soft tissue injuries take a LONG time to heal. If they don't completely heal it could become a chronic problem. Did your vet take x-rays?

Maxine is my CCL dog. Her first injury came from being "t" boned by my other dog (like a car through an intersection). We took her to an orthopedic vet, he felt the knee, suspected CCL and an xray confirmed it. Hers was torn, fortunately with the first one there was no menicus damage. Hers required surgical repair. The second leg picked up the slack while the first leg was healing, about a year later she was diagnosed with a tear on her right side. More surgery.

I hope you don't get there with your dog, Though it is a good surgery, my dog is fine and running around like a pup (she is now 11). As the surgeon said "the dog will be able to do all it did before, but be realistic if it could not jump the fence before the surgery it won't after" Error on the side of caution and go real slow with your dog.

I think the supplements you are on are fine. Does Nutra Joint have MSM? A couple vets have told me recently that is a good ingredient. Yucca is a natural anti inflamatory. I used that on one of my horses, made him feel much better. I have read fish oil and EsterC are good too. I have not tried them yet.

DO NOT give yucca if you are already giving an anti-inflammatory.  Yucca is a natural version of prednisone and Dermimaxx is already very strong stuff. 

Knox comes in a bunch of varieties -- there is one of them that has glucosamine, chondroitin AND msm in it.  Depends on which one you got.

I don't use the fancy ones -- I like the plain Knox NutraJoint powder (use it on both me and the dogs).  I've tried g/c MYSELF in the past and frankly never saw much help from it.  I've also tried MSM on myself and don't see any help from that either.  It may just be me -- they aren't bad, I just haven't seen any benefit from it on myself (I've had arthritis since I was a kid ... trust me, btdt on just about anything)

Now to explain, the plain NJ takes literally about THREE MONTHS to show any improvement.  You have to use it THAT long  ... because it literally helps the body repair connective tissue (cartilage).  So that takes time.

And yeah with soft tissue injuries usually you have to do pretty strict CRATE rest for a month or two in order to be effective. 

The cruciate ligament isn't cartilage.  It sorta helps 'tie' the knee together.  (that's a defininte over-simplification).  There's also a thing in there called the meniscus -- different part of the joint, but it can also be damaged.

IN essence it's tough to diagnose this with any accuracy -- and frankly it's the type of thing you can be major money ahead by going to your state's vet school to have repaired ... don't just let any vet do it.  This honestly is very very specific surgery ... the wrong vet will charge an arm and a leg and it's sometimes done when it shouldn't be.

Thanks for the replies.  I asked the vet if she would need crate rest, and he basically told me in so may words that I didn't necessarily need to *crate* her, but to just not *encourage* any extra activity, like playing ball or taking her hiking.  DUH!  LOL.  But I have been crating her anyway and just taking her out on a leash, because otherwise she wants to run around.

Is it okay to take her for short walks, or is that too much stress on her leg?

The vet did not take any x-rays, he just manipulated her leg and (I think) essentially diagnosed it by process of elimination.  If surgery is necessary, I was already planning to investigate the vet school route.  I am hoping that it will not come to that, but I don't know how realistic it is to hope that the leg will be able to heal on its own.  Is that really even a possibility?  What would be the consequances of NOT having any surgery?  I know surgery is almost always recommended, but is it necessarily always the best or only option?  (I am just trying to get a better idea of what I am dealing with).  I am also not very rich...so I would like to manage it the best way possible for as little money as possible...  Wishful thinking?

On the Knox NJ, I do know that I could get the PILL form with all the other stuff in it, but I was for some reason thinking the powder was more easily absorbed or something.  If it doesn't make much difference what form I use, then I will get the kind with everything in it.  But if the powder is better, than I was thinking about just pairing it with a plain MSM liquid supplement that I could buy separately.  Thoughts?  Opinions?

Anything else I should be doing?  Grain-free diet?  (I'm also thinking along the lines of arthritis).  Oh, and she is 8.5 yrs old, if that makes any difference.  Sorry if I'm all over the place, I'm just trying to gather my thoughts!

One last question, at least for right now -- do either of you know if the A-TraC Dynamic Brace is effective/worth the money?  Any personal or anecdotal success stories using it?  Any other comparable or cheaper alternatives that would have the same effect?

Thanks for the help, I am glad I have this forum to turn to. 

good glucosamine/chondroitin are expensive -- and they aren't going to help a cruciate tear!  So save your money, honestly, for what will help.

Acupuncture might help far more than anything else -- You might PM JoannDe about what she did for Prancer.  She's had the same decision to make. I've no knowledge of the brace.

Thanks, I'll PM JoannDe.  I guess I just have glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM stuck in my head because I was thinking about starting her on those things anyway, before this happened.

I've had two dogs in the last six months with this problem.

The fact that the knee isn't stable during examination doesn't bode well for conservative managment. The initials CM don't always stand for a dog trainer. There's a forum just for that, but I found that they aren't happy with people who say it isn't working.

I tried this with my 70 pound Malinois and he worsened, so we did surgery. My eight year old Golden Retriever/Chow was limping worse initially and I know her well, so we did surgery right away. It has been tough with him, not so tough with her although the first 48 hours were difficult.

She's three and a half months post surgery and it's hard to tell she had surgery. She had an hour long walk this morning. We've had a lot of rain and today was a break so I took her to the "special" park this afternoon. She was so excited when a lamb came to the fence to explore, I thought she might wet herself. We were there an hour and a half, and really, she's just appropriately exhausted, with a trace of a limp. Even if she improves no further, she's plenty well enough to have an excellent life.

I think accupuncture or accupressure is important. Whent the gait is off, they will get knots in other muscles that affect walking.

Feel free to PM or e-mail me if I can help in any way.

Stacy

Thank you.  I am a little overwhelmed with all the reading I am doing right now, but I will probably have some questions before too long.

The vet did not take any x-rays, he just manipulated her leg and (I think) essentially diagnosed it by process of elimination. If surgery is necessary, I was already planning to investigate the vet school route. I am hoping that it will not come to that, but I don't know how realistic it is to hope that the leg will be able to heal on its own. Is that really even a possibility? What would be the consequances of NOT having any surgery?

You can actually pretty definitively diagnose a ruptured CL by manipulation because the tibia will dispalce cranially and will be felt. However, X rays should always be done to confirm 100%, juuust in case.

If it is a true cranial cruciate rupture, it needs surgery (we just did ruptured CCL in Ortho and it's not a nice occurence)! I am pretty amazed that they just sent you on your way with anti-inflammatories!! Get Xrays to confirm, they should see joint effusion, displacement of the patellar fat pad, etc. Rest, NSAIDS, supplements etc can return the limb to normal function only in cats and some small dogs under 15 kg. Even with them (and almost undoubtedly in a large dog) you can get chronic problems if you just let it rest. More tears, more lameness, etc.  I second going to a specialist or a state vet school. Ruptured CCLs are actually rather common and the surgeries can be done very well by people who have done a lot of them. Most private practice vets don't do a lot of them, and some will send you on your way with antiinflamms because they don't feel comfortable doing the surgery, even when it needs to be done :(

I am glad you piped in here! I am by no means an expert but I have dealt with tendon, ligament injuries for YEARS (I have horses too) and a ruptured CCL in a dog this was the only course explained to me by many (surgery). I have a friend who thinks her dog has a tear, and I am TRYING to encourage her to get it xrayed and surgery. Her dog has been sore since last July.

My horse is currently at the end of 6 months of rest from a suspected tendon injury. It was in his hoof, the xrays did not show a break so we suspect a tendon/ligament tear. I talked about taking him to the Vet School for further diagnosis and my trainer and our barn vet didn't think it was too necessary (sigh) Both were looking out for my pocket book, (Teddi's THR was the same time) I plan to start him back to "work" in the next couple weeks but I a frightened. IF it was a tear and not completely healed, I could cause a bigger more permanent problem. On the plus side, my horse has been sound since November. I have controlled my urge to start back until the 6 months had passed. My point is the only thing for tendon and ligament injuries is surgery OR a TREMENDOUS amount of no activity time to allow for healing. I can not see a dog in a crate for 6 months (bad enough for my horse).