Vaccinating??

My only thing I do a bit different is NOT vaccinating pups til after 8 weeks. I still do yearly vaccs for parvo/distemper/kc (as often as 6 mo intervals)/rabies. I don't do the rabies the same day as the other's when I can avoid it...my FIL is a vet and he's in town same time every year for a conference so he does the rabies then leaves the others for me to do myself later on.

If I had an immunocompromised dog, or one who had issues after even one shot, I'd certainly do things differently. But right now...due to laws, my and my dogs frequent exposure to other dogs (we show), the raccoons and such around here...I do them yearly.

My dogs don't have problems with vaccinations. So, I do them as my vet recommends (which is the current AAHA vaccination standards). Recently, my vet has started to give 3-yr vaccinations, which is nice.

 Here is a link to the AAHA (American Animal Hospital Association) vaccination guidelines

http://www.aahanet.org/resources/guidelines_canine.aspx

 There is a table within that report that outlines each vaccination and when it should be given and if it is optional or not.

DiegosMom

If I don't like what my vet does do I talk to him or find a new vet?

Talk to him!!  Unless he had been on Mars, he knows that there has been a lot of controversy over vaccines and their safety.  Some vets use vaccines to get their clients into the office for yearly checkups, so new vaccine schedules requires some adjustment for a vet practice.

With all due respect to Gina, the vet schools are now teaching that once the 1-year shots are done the shots for rabies, parvo, distemper, parainfluenza, and adrenovirus do not need to be given more than once every 3 years.  That 3 years was a political compromise since studies are showing even longer times. 

Except for rabies (legal requirement), some people go further and titer (blood test for immunity) every three years rather than automatically giving shots.  A long walk through a dog park before blood is drawn may give more accurate titers by exposing the dog to very small amounts of the diseases.

Bordetella vaccines are only good for 6-months/1-year (nasal spray/shot).  However, this only protects against 2 of the 8+ causes of kennel cough.  The parainfluenza shot protects against an additional 1 of the 8+ causes.

I am strongly against giving a lot of vaccines at one time - especially to pups under 6 months.  Challenging their immune systems with up to 7 vaccines at a time seems ridiculous to me.  I don't even like doing 3.  If a pup/dog reacts to a vaccine, it is difficult to determine which one.

Here is my suggested way of doing vaccines:
http://community.dog.com/forums/p/6423/85548.aspx#85548

Caution:  Read up on lepto and lyme before you vaccinate for those two diseases.  Go to www.peteducation.com and search for those diseases.

janet_rose

With all due respect to Gina, the vet schools are now teaching that once the 1-year shots are done the shots for rabies, parvo, distemper, parainfluenza, and adrenovirus do not need to be given more than once every 3 years. 

When I observe some bad result in my own dogs I may rethink it...for now I am 110% comfy with yearly vaccs for my pack. My oldest is now close to 10 and doing great. Parvo on these premises, would ruin my breeding programme for the next 10 years...no thanks on that.

 

Cherokee hasn't been vaccinated in probably 5+ years. She's 9 years old and wasn't vaccinated at all til she was almost a year, so she might have been vaccinated 4 or 5 times, though I'm doubting my sister even did that. Probably 3 times. I just got titers done a couple weeks ago, and both Parvo and Distemper were the highest the lab can measure. She got a rabies vaccination against my better judgement because it's the legal requirement (thankfully California is here in 2007 with us and only requires it every three years) and she's a tad on the aggressive side...seemed pretty ridiculous to skip it with a dog who very well might bite given the chance (I don't give her the chance, but stuff happens).

I would never do blind (meaning without titers) yearly vaccinations, knowing what I know now. JMO.

I'd never heard of titers before coming here, and I'm still not 100% sure of what they are.  Is it a blood test?  Cost wise is it expensive?  Do you have to argue with the vet to do one instead of just giving the vax?

Titering is a blood test that checks the blood's response to primarily parvo and distemper.  MANY of the standard labs (like Antech) essentially give you sort of a "pass/fail" type of answer (which will stand in most places as 'proof of vaccination'  when you tell them you 'titer';).  Usually it's about $45 or $50.

You can, if you prefer, have it sent to a lab like Cornell (SUNY Vet School -- and a cutting edge vet school no less).  The results you get back from there are far more specific -- so you know better if your dog's immunity is 'satisfactory' but WAY high (rah!!) or in the middle somewhere or low and so you'll need to watch carefully next year -- you may need to vax. 

I prefer the ones from Cornell (gee, bet you could tell just the way I said that, huh?) -- but it's about $90 for the test. 

However, my answer isn't going to end there -- because a lot of this is worthy of discussion. 

And since Gina mentions immunosuppression I will too.  I have a dog who is **extremely** immunocompromised -- my English Cocker Billy has had IMHA which is an 'autoimmune' disease and I literally have been told by holistic, regular and even vets up at the U of Florida -- that he can NEVER EVER be vax'd again.  It literally would likely kill him because it would likely trigger the IMHA to return.

However, we do pet therapy, so I titer simply so we can a) keep track of where his immunity is, and b) so we can have proof that his immunity is sufficient to take him to various institutions.

Essentially, what all the flap is about -- repeated vaccines (particularly annual or even semi-annual ones) are pretty new ... but they are a drain on the immune system.  There is a lot of "correllation" (and a correllation isn't necessarily 'fact' but it is a trend or LOOKS like it has merit) between the increased vaccinations and the increase in "auto-immune" diseases and various things that simply fall under the category of "vaccinosis" -- or illnesses/diseases caused for some reason by the vaccine itself.

When killed vaccines became more popular (about 15+ years ago) it was also well known that they weren't going to provide as *lasting* an immunity as the modified live vaccines did.  So, as a self-protective measure vet schools taught for many years that vets should advocate an annual 'wellness regieme" including annual vaccines to be sure the vaccines stayed boostered.  At that time no studies had been done as to the effectiveness of the new vaccines.

Those studies are being done ... and you may want to investigate them further (Janet makes reference above).  Vaccines are one of those things that most people have a DEFINITE opinion on.  Kinda like everyone has a definite preference between mayo and Miracle Whip??  Ok -- take that to about the third power -- vaccines can be a huge sticking point for people and everyone in this thread is trying to be really careful to stay cordial.

And to a huge degree what your position is may reflect your own experiences.  I tend to have a more holistic leaning, altho I use an 'integrated' veterinary approach (I use both a holistic and regular vets from different practices but who work together) but my outlook is colored a great deal by my past experiences, both with Billy and other dogs and my own personal study. 

But I can't encourage you strongly enough to TALK TO YOUR VET  And if you feel, for whatever reason, like you just can't get thru, or they don't listen to or respect you, or ... whatever stops you .. then find someone else.  But be careful.

However, a relationship with a vet is BUILT.  If a thing worries you or you don't understand it ... ask.  And .. if you don't get a sufficient answer or one you understand ... ask again.  Be polite.  And don't shove those words "I read somewhere on the Internet that ..." down a vet's throat and expect them to turn cartwheels for you. 

If you read something that puzzles or worries you -- research it.  And then go to your vet and ASK where else you can look, or what does this mean ...

But some vets will simply dismiss certain things -- and then your job is to figure out whether they don't have time, maybe it's because they just don't want to be questioned, or is it really not important ... or ... is the vet wrong.  or ... what.  I've got certain drop dead things that will make me leave a vet.  But I've developed those over the years from ... you guessed it .. EXPERIENCE.  But if you can't get to first base asking questions -- my way is to be honest.  Maybe I do it in a LETTER even (I really don't like confrontation any better than the next person) -- but I'll say "Dr. ____, I really am kinda feeling a bit like I'm not being heard ... but I don't want to jump to conclusions -- and I truly DO want to understand.  Why do you recommend that particular thing?"

If you have looked at a lot of websites, and checked out the opinion of others ... and then you say to the vet "I've done a lot of reading -- both magazines, the internet, and I've talked at length with many folks -- would you explain to me your position on __________" (titering, vaccines, which heartworm prevention to use, etc.)

I've found, tho, that the vet you can talk to, learn from, and trust  ... that relationship is precious.  So if I ask a question I make sure I'm respectful and I weigh the answer carefully.

Talk to other people -- and research things.  Asking a question like this is good -- and altho you may get a ton of different answers, you will also begin to find where you can go for more answers.  And always remember that if you go to a website that is 'sponsored' by a company, you are going to get a picture pretty slanted towards supporting that opinion.  So asking who sponsors what or who gets support from what .. those are good questions to ask as well.

Good luck.

TheDogHouseBCMPD

Cost wise is it expensive?  Do you have to argue with the vet to do one instead of just giving the vax

I think it was $46 when I just did it, and that's for both parvo and distemper. More expensive than giving the vax, but worth it to me. My vet actually suggested it before I had the chance to ask. She asked me if I wanted to bring Cherokee up to date on her vaccines, I said "Not really...I kind of have issues with vaccines" she said "That's fine, I understand. We can do titers if you want." I think sometimes vets DO think it's ridiculous and fight you on it, I just got really lucky. This isn't a holistic vet or anything, just knowledgable, and, well, good!

TheDogHouseBCMPD

I'd never heard of titers before coming here, and I'm still not 100% sure of what they are.  Is it a blood test?  Cost wise is it expensive?  Do you have to argue with the vet to do one instead of just giving the vax?

Titers are a blood test that test your pet's level of antibodies for a given infection. An antibody is a protein that is made by white blood cells that allow them to indentify and kill an infectious agent. The antibodies are made in response to a given antigen. Lots of things can be antigens, but in the case of vaccines it is a part of or a attenuated virus (sometimes a bacteria). Vaccines work by having your or your pet's body make antibodies to an infection so that when challenged with it they are able to kill it. You cannot get the disease from vaccines as they are not the disease itself. You can get flu like symptoms that resolve over a 48 hour period, allergic reactions(usually to the medium they are in), local skin reactions, fever (again for 48 hours only). Titers are intersting things. They do studies that look at what level of antibody are needed to "fight off or kill" an infection. The problem with this is that dogs/people with adequate titers may very well not be able to fight off infection and those with lower titers may very well be able to. I for example do not have an appropriate titer for measles. I've been vaccinated about 8 times over the last 10 years and still do not for a response. Does that mean I'll get measles if exposed? Maybe or maybe not, no one knows for sure. My vet takes a logical approach to this IMO. Once she finishes the puppy vaccines and yearly booster (she is UCD trained and follows their protocol), she vaccinates once yearly but spreads it out so you get everything every three years. For example next year Otto/Ollie get parvo, the year after distemper, the year after rabies, and so on and so on. She think this spreads out the vaccines and gets people to show up for their annual exams :) She also has a system to where the various vaccines go so if you get a reaction, you know which one it was. Titers are expensive and IMO, not needed so I will just vaccinate unless the literature changes and then I will reassess. In additon, I do not have immunosuppressed animals so I'm not really worried about vaccinating in general. People with immunosupressed anything seem to get more worked up about this for obvious reasons, but I will remind everyone with people we actually are more aggressive with vaccinations due to their high risk and have never found any evidence that vaccinating people who are immunosupressed is detrimental. Vaccaination in the face of proven active infection is another matter that I won't get in to here because I'm tired of typing already (short attention span). I will remind people that Titers are a routine lab and can be done at any lab. For people who don't deal with this much, the machines are standard all over the country, you gain nothing by sending to a different lab. There are no special machines at various places and in general the normal ranges are actually determined via research by the companies that make the machines. There are specialized labs that are only done at a few places around the country. Your lab/vet will send out these if needed. Sending a blood sample to a specific lab IMO is like going to a particular pharmacy for the same medication. Why would you do this when you can get the same thing right here? Don't waste your money, your vet will be able to tell you which labs can and cannot be done at the local level. ETA: just wanted to add that with immunosuppression, you may not produce the desired response from the vaccine while with active infection, the vaccine won't work either because the immune system is busy. In both of these cases we aren't worried the vaccines will kill you or give you a disease, just that they don't work and are therefore a waste. You are less likely to have a reaction to a vaccine if you are immunosuppressed for obvious reasons.

I do the puppy shots and then one year boosters for distemper and parvo. After that I do titers. I do three year rabies (as per state law) except for my oldest, who has had so many health issues and especially allergies, that my vet and I agreed he needed a medical excusal for the rabies vaccine.

ottoluv

I will remind people that Titers are a routine lab and can be done at any lab. For people who don't deal with this much, the machines are standard all over the country, you gain nothing by sending to a different lab. There are no special machines at various places and in general the normal ranges are actually determined via research by the companies that make the machines. There are specialized labs that are only done at a few places around the country. Your lab/vet will send out these if needed. Sending a blood sample to a specific lab IMO is like going to a particular pharmacy for the same medication. Why would you do this when you can get the same thing right here?

Absolutely -- I had never opted for the more specific titers from Cornell (which is, as Ottoluv says, is a whole different kind of lab) UNTIL Billy got IMHA.  In the past I've always just had the vet send them to whatever lab they use, and used the pass/fail results.

Also -- the only reason WE titer every single year is literally to get the 'paper'.  As I said my husband and I do pet therapy with our dogs.  In order to do that I have to submit paperwork that indicates they are licensed, have been properly vax'd etc.  And so I submit titers to show their immunity (and I don't get a hassle on that at all from most of the places we go and an explanation has always sufficed when questioned.)

But there's no 'rule' that says you should titer every year, altho my vets have always been very happy since it keeps my dog's records current and we have past records to review and compare when there is a problem.

Oh, and I should mention rabies.  NO ONE wants you to titer rabies and it's not an easy out to replace a rabies shot.  We *did* get Billy's rabies titer done (and I had to send to Kansas State for that - once again a specialized lab) and my vet had to explain WHY the titer was being done.  My vet simply explained that Billy had been treated for IMHA and was not ever going to be able to be vaccinated again in his life, but that we did want to get him licensed in Florida.  The titers came back wonderfully high (not surprising) which my vet then submitted to the State of Florida to get a waiver so I could license him. 

NOT easy.  But again, because we do pet therapy, it's essential he be licensed. 

The only reason I mention it is because rabies vax always takes negative press because of reports of injection site sarcoma -- and then people ask if they can titer instead, and you can't.  Rabies is too huge a problem that can affect the lives and health of people -- so they don't let you opt out of rabies vaccine just because you don't want to.  I just didn't want anyone to think I was advocating that.