antihistamines

ORIGINAL: Shelley75

I'm sorry, but I have just a few more question.  You guys are great and so informative.  I was just wondering if the more the dogs take the antihistamines, does that mean they will require more of them or higher doses?  I'm wondering if the body gets used to the drug, if more of it will then be required.  Also, if it is given for a long period of time and they the dog comes off the pill are there any side effects, like withdrawal?  Also, could antihistamines make a dog dizzy?  How would I know if he is dizzy from this pill? 

Trixie has taken Diphenhydramine for a couple of years and at the same dose. 1/2 tab 3xday.  Occassionally I have not given them to her and she does not have withdrawals per se but the itch does come back.  I would say if they were dizzy they would be disoriented however, I've never seen this in Trixie.

ORIGINAL: calliecritturs

ziggynemo -- just fwiw - I didn't pluck those figures out of thin air.  "Pill Book Guide to Medication for Your Dog and Cat" (Dell, reference).  But a vet can and will exceed recommended doses when they feel it is warranted ... but as I said above .. that's where I get worried about longer term side effects becoming more pronounced is all.  Just from experience.

 
I realize you did get the info from a pill book. I have three vets for my dogs. One is a derm vet from Eastern Carolina Vet College that comes to my town once a month, one is my local vet and one is a holistic vet. All three agree that if Ziggy needs to be on an antihistamine that one tablet is the correct dose. He has been taking them for a while. Mostly just during the bad allergy season we have here. If he doesnt take them, he gets a horrible bacterial infection. Those have been decreased in number since starting him on the Tavist PRN.
I also work for a physician that at first wanted to be a vet, and he agrees with dosage and they all agree the long term outlook is just fine, so long as he gets regular check ups and lab values, which he does and he is very healthy.
I am sure the book you read is very informative but I will have to go with what 4 medical professionals tell me and also from my own experience with my dogs. I am very particular in what they get fed and the meds they take, so believe me I did research on my own years ago before I started him on these.

Somehow Callie always seems to get the dogs with the worst and wierdest problem.  So when she mentions the long term stuff, *I* pay attention.  Please be sure that your vet is checking kidney and liver functions every 6 months.

ORIGINAL: glenmar

Somehow Callie always seems to get the dogs with the worst and wierdest problem.  So when she mentions the long term stuff, *I* pay attention.  Please be sure that your vet is checking kidney and liver functions every 6 months.

 
Like clockwork![] 

Jessies Mom,
 
I have him on a nutritional supplement, EFA Vites.  It is suppose to help with the skin.  I use organic oatmeal shampoo and conditioner that I bought at Petsmart.  I will start a new thread under grooming and see if there is anything better. 
 
I feed Jake Natural Balance wet. One day he gets duck and potatoe and the next day he gets the eatables, irish stew, it has beef in it.  He also he solid gold holistique blendz dry.  I had him on Natrual Balance wet beef and potatoes, but just changed him to the eatables beef.  He seems to like that better.  His blood test showed he is allergic to chicken, turkey and lamb, so beef and duck and what I have left.  He can't have the natural balance wet vension because it has flaxseed in it and he is also allergic to flaxseed. 
 
I have only hardwood floors throughout my house except for an oriental rug in the living room which I vacuum almost everyday, if not every other day and I have a kirby vacuum cleaner.  I wash his bed every six weeks when he gets groomed.  Sometimes he sleeps in his bed for a few hours then he sleeps on my bed.  I have a sheet over my comforter that he sleeps on and wash that almost every two days along with his blanket and his pillow case. 
 
I do want to wait for the immunotherapy is use that as a last resort.  What do you think about his food?  Am I doing wrong?
 
Callie,
 
I'm really hesistant to give him the max dose day after day.  That's why I have him on it once a day.  Should my vet check the kidneys and liver every six months if he's on it once a day?  What about twice a day? 
 
Thanks again.  As you can see, I'm so stressed out about this.

   It honestly sounds like you are doing about everything you can and are in the same position I was with Jessie. I wouldn't have harped on the alternative treatments so much if I had known what you were doing; you're fairly new to the forum and we get many new members who don't know about and haven't tried bathing, using supplements, etc. I was pleasantly surprised and relieved at how quickly Jessie responded to the immunotherapy; when she began the shots she was recovering from a very nasty foot infection (made her limp) which she had gotten five days after finishing antibiotics for another infection. She has not needed antibiotics since she started the shots which is over a year ago, and needs antihistamines only occasionally. Shawn Messonier said in his book " The Allergy Solution for Dogs" that although he recommended trying nutritional and topical therapies first he considered the shots a form of holistic therapy; there are actually no drugs involved; the vaccine is derived from allergen extracts. The first shot Jessie was given was done at the vet's and we stayed there for 30 minutes so if a reaction occured she would have access to emergency treatment; nothing happened of course. You can give an antihistamine before the shot if you are worried about a reaction but they are very rare.

ziggynemo -- I'm not trying to *convince* you ... only to let you know where I got my info from.  And shoot -- if we're going to count vets, I get to count Dr. D the holistic vet, Dr. B. the regular vet, and Dr. Clemmons, Dr. Xie, Dr. Crissman, Dr. Marsalla and 3 others up at the U of Florida???  Yipe -- no wonder I'm oor LOL. 
 
But that's the point -- we all do a ton of research and still wind up having to learn from experience.  My Muffin the Intrepid (gone two years now as an end result of renal failure) was a mega allergy boy ... MAX dose of antihistamine his whole life (8 years) and none of the myriad vets he had ever warned me that anthistamines could be rough on the kidneys because they needed to keep the dog comfortable TODAY and no studies have shown categorically that such doses *will* cause problems, only that they *might*.  Or that some have in the past.  And it's only as I've gotten more and more holistically minded that I've understood that.
 
So I lost Muffin way sooner than we wanted to -- and he had every problem known to man about 'cockers'.  This is a dog with virtually no immune system who had lifelong MAJOR skin problems, ear problems (he had both ears removed) that were likely allergy related, then add cancer and finally renal problems.  Renal problems caused by??  Probably weakened kidneys (weakened **maybe** by long-term antihistamine use) but likely majorly damaged by chemo that we did too long (yes, at the insistence of one of the vets at U of FL vet school in Gainesville). 
 
So I'm not saying "THIS" will cause long term problems -- I'm simply throwing out a caution so please don't take me as being personally critical here -- in fact I'm trying way way too hard here to be sure I've explained myself so no one feels 'picked on'. 
 
But my point is my experience reaches beyond what I"ve read or even what's happened with ONE dog. 
 
Also -- someone above mentioned finding the "cause" (her comment in regard to allergy 'testing') -- but the other point I'm making here is that when you get a dog who is MAJORLY allergic, sometimes it is smart to go around behind and try to find out **why** the body is so incredibly sensitive to allergies.  Yes, allergies are definitely immune-related.  BUT, for a huge example, they are also prone to be thyroid related.  Not that thyroid 'causes' allergies.  It doesn't.
 
BUT thyroid deficiency (hypothyroid) can set the skin up to embrace any skin problem it finds!  A year ago I was going wild trying to keep Billy's skin (another cocker) in one piece!!  I was, (at the recommend again of 3 vets with completely different backgrounds) bathing him DAILY.  To cleans allergens off his skin (because allergens go trans-dermal not just into the mouth or nose).  Soaking his feet, COOKING a special diet, a ton of vet recommended supplements, and nearly daily need for him to be on antibiotics and beyond (and way too many bouts of pred just to get his skin so he could stand living inside it!).
 
Testing?  We know most of what he's 'allergic' to ... but I also had blood tests/thyroid tests done out the ying yang.  In fact, last summer it got SO bad at one point we had it biopsied and yet a third thyroid test done.  I was beyond frantic and I've never spent so much time on one dog's skin and not be able to 'win' at all. 
 
The thyroid test always came back "a bit low but definitely within norms".  *sigh*
 
FINALLY, after reading the success several folks had on here, my holistic vet and I agreed one MORE thyroid test was in order.  But this time send it to either Dr. Jean Dodds herself, OR to Michigan State (she built their lab and they use her protocols religiously). 
 
I'm a legal secretary and just figuring out how to sent it to Dr. Dodds (you have to get the blood spun and then overnighted FROZEN to her) was beyond me, but my regular vet was willing to send it to Michigan State (he had worked with them in the past on other things).
 
RAH --- **DO IT**!!!!
 
Lo and behold -- thyroid test #4 sent to Michigan State rather than a traditional lab ... LOW THYROID!!  Not 'ultra' low but definitely low enough to be a problem in both values.  Aha!!
 
Once again, my holistic vet sticks her opinion in "Use Armour thyroid NOT synthetic thyroid -- it's natural -- it is porcine thyroid -- and it's more hormonally balanced.  He'll do better on it."
 
In for a penny, in for a pound ... so Armour thyroid it was. 
 
Instant results?  NO.  BUT, he acted a bit better.  And altho we started it when he was absolutely at his worst and once again that time we had to resort ultimately to pred and strong antibiotics to turn it around ... yes, THIS time we got it to heal ... and ... WHOA ... it .... ***stayed*** for a while.  In fact, all the way thru Christmas Billy only had to be bathed like every other week (and he thot THAT was the best!). 
 
Soon as January hit tho, with spring Florida allergies maxing out the skin begins to degrade .... not nearly as bad as last year, but worse than I was at all comfortable with.
 
But this is thryoid -- it's not *causing* skin problems -- just allowing them TO happen.  So he's been on this four months and I'm thinking he should be tested again, right??
 
It came back from Michigan State ... well, frankly ... a *bit* low.  Not as low as before, but then I had 3 more vets disagreeing.  The traditional "regular" vet says "Well, if he's being thyroid supplemented I would expect the numbers in the middle of it ... not low, not high but bang in the middle!!  For supplemented thyroid I think it's too low".
 
The holistic vet (2 of them in fact) say "but it IS within norm and we want to avoid any excessive supplementing ..."  So they try to supplement the supplement ... trying to get the dog's own thyroid to work 'harder'. 
 
It didn't work ... and in my own gut I felt we just hadn't reached the right 'dose' of the armour thyroid for MY dog.  So the vets compromised -- the regular vet wanted to go to 1 1/2 pills or 2.  The holistic vet says no more.  So I offered the compromise of 1 1/4 and we'll test again but we'll also see how he responds.
 
The 1 1/4 dose turned the trick!!!  It was what HE needed.  Almost immediately minimal allergy treatment WORKED.  The skin is GREAT.  He's getting a minimal 25 mg cap of benedryl twice a day (and he's 28-30 pounds) AND he is getting some homeopathics to help the body deal with the incoming histamines.
 
He's seen both vets this week and they are over the moon about how GREAT his skin is. 
 
Not flawless -- and we've got this little internal inside-the-ear-drum infection that's likely allergy-related.  But by heaven we ARE getting the body to respond and deal.  I'm not going stark raving mad trying to bathe him every day ... phew!!! 
 
Again, sorry this is long -- my points are few:
 
1.  When allergies are THIS much of a problem, find out *why*.  Is there a specific one allergen that's so off the scale that removing that one will make a difference?  Or is it low thyroid that's setting the body up to fail no matter what else you do?
 
2.  They don't call it the medical "arts" for nothing.  Because no matter how many vets spout to me and each other "76% of those studied show positive results with ___ mg/lb of ABC drug." there is still the question "Is my dog one of the 76% or one of the 24% of the 'other' ones?
 
3. No one vet is 'god' ... and as most of us have seen even when you take a dog to all kinds of specialists, sometimes they'll agree and sometimes they'll have different ideas.  And even when they do agree -- sometimes the dog does get better and sometimes it doesn't. 
 
So you're often back to common sense.  and trying other stuff and a little harder, and hopefully a little smarter to find what will work with *this* dog. 
 
Don't think I'm saying thyroid is the answer for every dog.  IT IS NOT.  But in my long story above, I hope folks saw that even when we found something that helped it took adjusting and working with it to reach any sort of balance.
 
And frankly -- my *goal* is to get him on less and less anthistamine ... maybe not off fully (altho that would suit me) but to at least be able to adjust it more seasonally.  (tough in Florida - it's green and growing here year round), but if I can rely more on homeopathics (which won't have the side effects) I'm gonna be personally happier.  Because just for once, I want an allergy dog to still be making me crazy when he's 20.  If it please the Alpha of all Alphas, I want THIS dog to be with me for many years. 
 
Cos allergy dogs are far more prone to cancer simply because allergies and the immune system are so darned 'tied' -- and my ultimate goal is to help the immune system deal with life as it ought to.  *sigh*And maybe if I can get my dog's immune system to work better, maybe I can get mine to work better too.  *sigh again*.
 
Of all the dog problems I've dealt with, I think allergies are perhaps the most frustrating simply because you know the dog has to be SO uncomfortable constantly and you know it's affecting so much else ... and it's just more work than anything else. 
 
Shelly - to specifically answer your question ... the honest answer is "I don't know".  Why?  Because it is so incredibly difficult to know when the kidneys ARE failing.  You won't see blood results until you are IN renal failure.  Advanced renal failure.  So by the time you see the BUN and Creat numbers as 'bad' your dog is far gone. 
 
The only thing YOU ... as the guardian .... can do, is to be proactive.  This, bottom line, is where I come from.  Can I say the max dose of allergy meds id *GOING* to cause renal problems? No way.  In one dog it might, it another it won't.  And no study is gonna show that because no study is really being done, to my knowledge.  They don't want to prove antihistamines harmful --that's not how grants and studies work.  They only want to prove something harmful if they have some other wonder drug they want to prove IS the answer.
 
So, I take MY answer from knowing simply that antihistamines *can* be tough on the kidneys (not even categorically harmful ... but just "tough" on them), so then I work my behind off to find a better solution for THIS dog.  My last mega allergy dog got the max dose because it was the best I could do for Muffin the Intrepid.  And it gave him 8 good years.  It helped him.  I can *not* kick myself over what I did for him -- we did our absolute best.  But Billy is already in better health than Muffin ever had.  So for this dog, I want better.
 
Does that make ANY sense to anyone??  I'm not going to make any flat statement that anyone is not doing their best, because gosh darn it WE ALL ARE. 
 
Allergies are like the new dog plague *sigh*.  It has to be THE most often discussed thing on this board.  At least regarding health issues.  Just count how many threads are active right now that are allergy-related -- like 6 of them when I counted last night!
 
But honestly -- I wish like heck someone had SAID to me 6 years ago that large doses of antihistamine *might* be bad.  It might not have altered my decision ... but it would have given me pause for thought.  And we thot by getting Muffin's blood 'tested' every few months we could TELL if the kidneys were in distress.  You can't.  And no one told me THAT either -- vets won't load you with 'what ifs' if they think you are maxxed doing the best for this dog that you can!!  They don't want you to walk away feeling like they put you in a 'can't win' position -- that's just plain bad business in their estimation. 
 
So I think it's unfair sometimes to expect a vet to watch all our 'tomorrows' when we're sitting there waiting for him to give us something to ease the dog's discomfort TODAY.  And what may help the most today may or may not be the wisest course long term.
 

I want to thank everyone for their honest responses.  I had a cocker spaniel before Jake.  Buffy lived to be 9 years old.  She died two years ago in April unexpectently.  She was the best girl!  My baby!  My very first dog!  I knew nothing back then.  Never had access to the internet until maybe 5 years ago and still never thought about learning about dogs from it.  We feed her science diet because that is what the vet recommended.  I knew nothing about by-products at the time.  She had milkbone treats and rawhides.  We fed her table food.  She was very much overweight.  She had lots of joint problems especially with her back legs.  Always limping.  She had ear infections all the time and I mean all the time.  She would bite her paws constantly.  The vet said it was because she was bored.  She had a few cysts on her body.  They said it was normal in cockers.  (By the way, I don't go to this vet anymore).  I never thought about allergies.  No-one ever even said the word allergy.  The last two weeks of her life, she developed 104 temperature.  They found a tumor in her ear.  They wanted to operate.  I wanted to wait for a while.  (Thank God I didn't, because she would have never made it after the operation).  I had her to the vet every day of the week the week she died.  That Thursday after they took x-rays because she couldn't stop panting.  She would pant so hard she couldn't even get up.  We would have to change her position in bed because she would pant just to change sides.  I asked if she was dying.  The vet told me no.  She died that night in her sleep.  It was the most devasting experience I will ever go through.  I still talk to her everyday and say goodnight to her every night.  I have a shelf of her urn and all kinds of pictures and her 3 favorite toys on it.  I have an oil painting of me and her above my bed.  Back then I didn't know anything. 
 
I know so much more now and I guess that's why I'm so nervous about Jake.  He's not even 2 yet and he has all these problems.  I want to know what is going into his system and if it will do more harm than good.  At night, I have to put my hand over his back or stomach to make sure he is still breathing.  I'm so afraid of something happening to him.  So I hope everyone understands.  I am going to have the blood test for environmental allergies even if I do not end up doing the shots.  It's like callie said, I want to know why.  Is it one specific allergy over another.  At least I will know what he is allergic to.  Thanks callie, your last post made complete sense.  I also had a thyroid test done a few months ago because of excessive dandruff.  It was normal.  I don't like the fact that I have to give him antihistamines.  I am not going to give it to him at night tonight.  He doesn't scratch at night anyway.  I'm going to give it to him tomorrow morning and see how he does.  I'm going to try that for a few days.  But I don't think I want to give him 2 a day.  Plus he is so thirsty since he started taking them. 

I'm glad I found this forum because you are all so helpful and kind and full of information.  Thank You.

Shelly -- join the club.  10 years ago MOST of us had never heard of dog allergies or that anything other than steroids could 'treat' them.  Or "doses'.
 
Now, don't get me wrong.  I am ***NOT*** saying antihistamines are bad.  Not at all.  They should be the absolute *first* thing to try because they are far far *<>* injurious to the body than anything else.  You can't let them scratch and get infected.  And so many other things are SO bad.
 
It's just mindlessly *high* doses I'm warning of.  And even then - there are times for them.  Maybe even  whole seasons of high doses.  But not just day in, day out forever.
 
And you do have to dose it properly -- the problem with a forum like this is that it is too easy to only pay attention to the 'last' post.  Giving less of a dose of antihistamine than is proper is honestly a waste.  Because it does nothing.
 
See while a dog is sleeping they are *still* breathing in those allergens -- so please-- don't stop giving the anthistamine at night.  All I was trying to do was caution you to look further if the antihistamines aren't doing it.    To look at the thyroid, to even investigate supplements for the immune system or even acupuncture (which we use on our dogs too). 
 
Yes, an antihistamine will cause thirst -- that's not a bad thing.  That simply rinses out the kidneys -- it helps the body cope and process those allergens from another angle.  You just make sure you give them lots to drink and lots of time to get rid of that water (antihistamines not only make them thirsty but make the body hold the water til 'later' -- so it doesn't mean they're gonna pee all day long).
 
Now also ... please notice I was pretty specific about what I said about the thyroid test.  I think it was this post where I said we had Billys tested THREE times in a year and it came back "normal".  When we had it tested later by Michigan State maybe I didn't make it clear enough.  It wasn't that Billy was suddenly low thyroid.  It was that he was tested more *accurately*. 
 
Most of the veterinary world uses the same chart to measure a jack russell terrier's thyroid as they would use to measure a rottie or a cocker's or a St. Bernard! 
 
yep -- true.  And the fact is, all of those breeds have wildly different energy levels and metabolisms.  So Dr. Dodds' whole theory is that there should be different 'protocols' or measures for different breeds.  That a cocker shouldn't be held to the same 'measure' as that St. Bernard or the JRT or the rottie. 
 
This is ... in our case ... what made the difference. 
 
IT's not going to be that way for everyone.  Patt-B's dog is doing fine on a low dose of benedryl.  Other dogs are doing well on shots. 
 
Some folks want to do allergy testing (and there are two main types of those too).  And that can help a great deal in some cases.  A friend of mine has a manchester terrier with horrible allergies.  But after nothing she did helped (and she did all of the above) they went to Cornell University and had him tested. 
 
Lo and behold -- yes, he was allergic to all the typical things she figured were problems (oak/maple pollen, mold, mildew, wallpaper dust, etc.).  But this dog's testing showed ONE particular, absolutely *peculiar* allergen!!! 
 
FEATHERS!!
 
That is just not something most dogs are ever allergic to.  people, yes, but not dogs.  But he was.  And they slept with a feather duvet and feather pillows (and of course he slept with them!)
 
So among the other things she does for him, the one hugely significant thing she did was   put a hypo-allergenic cover on the duvet and pillows!!  Immediate help!
 
NOw please don't generalize -- don't think I'm saying your dog is allergic to feathers.  The odds would be about 10,000 to 1.  Or even greater. 
 
My point is once in a while you can catch a break and find one thing on an allergy test that you *can* do something about.  Maybe your dog is allergic to wall paper dust particularly and you were about to renovate and rip down paper and paint the walls anyway.  But sometimes allergy testing can do great things, particularly if you can afford it.
 
But understand we all share your frustration.  And education IS your best tool here.  None of us knew ANY of this a few years ago.  You CAN do better with this dog, but don't let it make you a nervous wreck!!

Callie,
 
Thank you.  I understand much better from your last post.  Thank you for clearing things up for me.  I appreciate your help.

Thank YOU for posting what your conclusions were so I could catch where I was unclear. 

Callie, your posts were very informative, thanks so much. It sounds as if you are very knowledgeable on allergies for sure! Sorry if my posts sounded rude. My youngest Tzu has been sick and I am very stressed about it.
 
---Debbi

Callie,
 
I'm just wondering how did your friends dog find out he is allergic to feathers?  I'm having Jake environmental allergy tested in two weeks.  I need to stop his antihistamine for 2 weeks.  They only test what's on the panel.  For example, I wanted them to test for leaves, but it's not on the panel.  Jake is obsessed with leaves and sometimes eats them.  I don't know how to stop him.  So I'm just wondering how they tested for feathers if it's not on the panel.

Shelley - I think they probably test for the most common allergens, and feathers would probably be on the panel.  Leaves wouldn't be on the panel because they don't specify which leaves.  For example, it might be an allergy to oak trees (leaves included), so the testing for oak would show positive.  Or maybe Mulberry trees are the problem.  There's just no way they could have a general test for leaves though.  Does that make sense?  By the way, my labs are both in love with leaves too.  Sassy likes to just pick them up and carry them around until she finds a comfortable place to lay down and eat them []

Yes, Trudy Wu takes Hydroxyzine twice a day. She gets her antigen shot weekly and eats Natural Balance fish. She is doing great!!!!
 
She has a dermatologist and her reg. vet also.