Dog Community

Ascites but no other symptoms

Posted : 2/15/2014 1:46:18 PM

Hello! My dog is a 10 yo 50 lb hound mix (rescue) who has been in treatment for seizures ever since I got her (8 1/2 years ago). We knew with the regimen of phenobarbital that has worked to control her seizures that someday she would likely develop liver problems. Well, over Christmas her belly became very distended...we were afraid it was from something she ate, and it did go down a little, but then got big again. So I took her into the vet in mid-January and her liver levels were high, but not crazily so, while all her other counts were totally normal. So we know it's not heart disease, worms, etc. or many of the other things that can cause ascites. She has literally no other symptoms, and even the ascites does not appear to bother her that much, except when she's trying to lick her bottom or scratch areas that have become hard to reach. She's peeing and pooping normally, is acting her normal hyperactive self, and has had no vomiting or lethargy at all. She is also not jaundiced in either her eyes or gums, though the ascites fluid that the vet drained was yellowish instead of clear, another indication that this is liver related. She has no accompanying edema (swelling in legs) or any other problems besides the swollen belly. The doctor recommended ultrasound to be sure of the problem, but we know we do not want to put her through surgery at this point, especially if it's a secondary liver cancer, which is more likely even on the off-chance that it is a tumor. Also, it seems extremely likely that the phenobarbital has caused the liver stress/disease, and that's the only medication that has ever worked for her seizures, so we'd rather she live an easy, happy, shorter life than a stressful, seizure-filled longer one. So, we've put her on Denamarin, the Hill's l-d diet for liver disease, and Lasix. We've been gradually decreasing the dosage of pheno and I've been feeding her extra high-quality, no sodium proteins (like eggs) instead of her old treats. She had an abdominocentesis to remove the fluid two weeks ago and four liters were taken out. I've been measuring her belly and it was the same every day until today when it has increased around an inch or so. My vet seems stumped on this, and I have found no other stories like mine in many extensive internet searches. It seems extremely rare for a dog to have ascites this bad (rapid onset, and a lot of fluid) with literally NO other symptoms! We keep vascillating between thinking we'll have to put her down in a few weeks to thinking she might live a few more years! I just cannot get any answers. Does anyone else have a history like this? I would appreciate hearing your stories!

calliecritturs

Posted : 2/15/2014 2:36:12 PM

Defamation is good but not enough usually to get liver levels down. You will likely need to add both milk whistle and sam-e in large quantities.

What is her hematocrit? Usually ascites is from blood vessels when there is so little red cells that the blood vessels are too porous to hold the plasma .

I honestly would highly suggest TCVM. I've had two seizure dogs and TCVM is incredible. Acupuncture plus the prescription Chinese herbalist can help you lower the dose of phenomena. In fact one of the herbs is incredibly close to pheno. Usually you can't dispense w the drug totally but lessen it.

calliecritturs

Posted : 2/15/2014 3:42:43 PM

I knew I was missing things but UGH ***I hate posting from my tablet***!!!!!

"Denamarin" not "defamation"!!! (it makes me crazy that the auto-speller repeatedly changes something you've deliberately backed over and corrected numerous times!!!) I apologize -- I thot I'd caught all the spellchecker madness.

Denamarin is a pharmaceutical -- it is a combo of Marin and Denosyl which are the pharmaceutical results of hyper processed milk thistle (Marin) and SAM-e (Denosyl). Good quality products -- but not sufficient to "get down" liver values enough. Helps them from rising but typically to get liver levels down **while ON** a drug like pheno, you have to do more, and you can't take "more" of the pharmaceutical version.

Before I explain further (and this can be an enormous topic and very broad) my email is callieatcritturs@yahoo.com -- feel free to email me, and if you want we can even talk on the phone.

My pug (the one that's in my avatar) has run small petit mal type seizure activity for 3 years now. And with acupuncture and the prescription herbs we've kept it from advancing to full blown seizures (altho that's always a risk).

Pheno *is* hard on the liver, but at the same time, the more advanced liver problems are the higher the risk for seizures. So honestly, getting some sort of intervention here to lower liver enzymes and take some of the load off the dependence for pheno should be able to help a good deal.

Milk thistle -- one of the reasons vets and human doctors are so wary of herbs is mostly a quality issue. Most anything you get in capsules from an herb/health shop are sadly lacking in quality. You will see the word "standardized" -- which simply means in English we know there's crap in there among the milk thistle but we've mixed the big vats of herbs up enough before we encapsulated it so that all the capsules in this batch are standard (i.e., standardized) and uniformly sucky

(meaning big companies that sell herbs make little effort at real quality control - they just buy big fields of the herb after harvesting so there may be hay, milkweed, or all manner of weeds among the herb when purchased from various farms).

I'm saying that and I use a LOT of herbs. BUT the big deal is to buy A) high quality and B) certified organic (so you get away from the chemical additives). You can go to www.mountainroseherbs.com or a smaller family-owned site like http://www.leavesandroots.com to purchase high quality milk thistle by the pound in bulk (no capsules if you buy the powder in bulk form),

The good part of that is that it's much cheaper. You can get a pound of milk thistle powder for about $12 a pound plus shipping. If you buy a bottle of the capsules at Whole Foods? It's about $20 a bottle AND you get about one and a half (1.5) oz of herbs in that whole bottle.

Sam-e -- dogs can take any human SAM-e. BUT most human SAM-e is enteric (made to be digested in the small intestine) and dogs don't do that well. So crush or open the tablets/capsules to defeat that coating for a dog. The absolute *best* SAM-e I've found is CellFood SAM-e -- it's a liquid so it's super-easy to dispense for a dog and *very* well digested. Actually you're using less SAM-e than you would in the pill form because it's absorbed/utilized better by the body.

If you have Amazon Prime you can get CellFood SAM-e for about $29.95 -- but if it's not Prime watch your shipping (same anywhere online -- the shipping can be awful). It's an itty bitty 1 oz bottle. But if you are trying to buy it in a store **call first** to make sure they carry the CellFood (*no space* -- not "Cell Food" -- that's a different brand name) products. Because those little bottles are expensive usually they keep them at the register, and not all health stores, etc. carry CellFood brand.

LIke I said -- if you want to email me at callieatcritturs@yahoo.com I can help you more and I can describe the TCVM (Traditional Chinese Veterinary Medicine) -- *****I am not trying to get you to leave your vet!!!!!***** TCVM is "complimentary" medicine -- that means you add a vet - they don't want to be your 'regular' vet and usually they don't do stuff like surgery, vaccines, etc.

http://www.tcvm.com is the Chi Institute website -- but their locator is kinda sucky. My vet is one of the faculty and I have another link locator I can give you if you want. Surprisingly they use TCVM a whole lot now for farm animals -- so even if you are in a rural area don't think there are no vets around who "do that" -- you'll likely be surprised.

But it's amazingly good for seizure stuff.

calliecritturs

Posted : 3/12/2014 12:02:03 AM

gee whiz -- busy weren't you?