13 Year Old Chihuahua/Pomeranian with high liver enzymes. Need more advice!! HELP!

I also forgot to add that he had started to loose the hair on his tail quite a while ago.  It still has hair on it but you can see his tail through it.  Not sure if that means anything?

Hi -- you are doing a *lot* of good things.  The first thing, tho - and you already realize this - is you need better vet help.  Altho, honestly rather than "ditch" the vet you have (who seems willing to try) I would suggest you *add* a vet.  I would suggest something like a TCVM vet (Traditional Chinese Veterinary Medicine -- not an Oriental vet, but rather one who is certified in acupuncture, herbology, nutrition, etc.).

TCVM absolutely rocks for dogs with liver issues -- the liver can be supported, and you are doing a lot of good things.  I can help you with some of this but If you will email me your zip code I can help you find a vet who may be better able to help support the liver, and yet still work *with* your regular vet.  My email is callieatcritturs@yahoo.com and once you email me I'll send you all my contact info.

Also -- if you possibly can call the vet and ask for the bloodwork to be sent to you via email (that's usually how they get it now) and then forward it to me??  Bloodwork isnt' just specific values.  Bloodwork is really all a big set of numbers that aren't taken one by one .. but rather this in ratio with that.  If *this* is high, then is *that* low??? Or is "that" high also?   So you can't just post various values -- it kinda all has to be viewed togehter.  I'm no vet, but I can at least give you an idea of questions to ask

Yes, the liver *does* regenerate.  However, you don't say how old Cody is?  The liver will regenerate up to a point .... you sort of have to balance that with supporting the liver and what else is going on.  

Re things you are doing:

SAM-e.  The Cell Food SAM-e is incredible.  It's far better than the tablets.  BUT to use what you have now:

1.  Crush the pill before you give it to her.   Human SAM-e is enteric, meaning it digests in the small intestine and dog's don't do that well.   So you have to defeat that enteric coating on the pill.  (don't do it long in advance -- as soon as SAM-e sees light and air it begins to deteriorate). -- give **with** food, not before.

2.  Give it to her **twice** a day. Not once.  Most liver stuff needs to be given more times a day than once in order to continually support the liver.  Generally I do breakfast and supper.  (If you've been feeding once a day, try twice a day with smaller meals - generally it works better.)

3.  Tell me how much she weighs and I'll tell you how many drops of the CellFood SAM-e I would use.  Probably about 4-5 drops given in food (not on an empty stomach) given twice a day.

4.  Milk thistle -- TWICE a day (or three times).  Empty it out of the capsules.  I'm also going to suggest you get that in bulk, rather than capsules.  *Much* depends with milk thistle on the quality of it.  And honestly nothing that comes in capsules thru most stores is a very good quality.  You want something at least certified organic -- there are several places on the web you can get it, but the ones I use are:  http://www.leavesandroots.com, and also www.mountainroseherbs.com.  

What you've been giving -- there's about 60 -80 caps in a bottle?  Usually about $15 - $20 a bottle?  There is about 1 1/4 oz in that whole bottle.  You can get a whole pound of certified organic milk thistle (in powder form) for $20 plus shipping.  Why a pound?  you will use it, trust me!!

Dogs don't digest cellulose well.  That's why I'm saying dump the capsule contents into food of some sort (babyfood meat, or just in her food).  Milk thistle isn't bad tasting at all.

Increase what you are giving to 1/2 teas. (that's about 2 caps) and give that TWO times a day.  From there, and depending on how Cody does you will give more than that.

Some herbs are strong ... some are not.  Milk thistle is not a strong herb.  And we're asking it to do a lot here.

SAM-e is the big "detox" for the liver.  It helps get the liver numbers down.

Milk thistle, on the other paw, does 3 things for the liver.  1 -- it protects the liver from further damage; 2 - it helps detox the liver (not as "big guns" a detox as SAM-e but it does a decent job of helping detox the liver; 3 -- the **biggie** tends also to be the unsung hero!!  The third thing milk thistle does is aid liver function.   it literally helps the liver work **better**.

This is why I'm saying give it twice or three times a day.  You honestly can't give too much.  That can't be said for many herbs.  There are a lot of studies/trials that have been done showing that in high doses milk thistle actually helps protect the kidneys as well as the liver.  My point being ... it is incredibly well tolerated and has huge benefits even in extremely high doses.

But this is also why it is **critical** to use as high quality milk thistle as possible.  You can also use milk thistle tincture -- but stick with HerbPharm as the brand (it's even better than "certified organic" -- all HerbPharm's tinctures are "wild crafted" -- meaning it's all hand grown and hand picked - no fertilizers, herbicides, etc)

Depending on how Cody reacts -- you could use a full dropper of HerbPharm tincture in food.  it has an alcohol taste and smell.  Don't bother getting another brand to get "alcohol-free" -- milk thistle needs to be decocted in alcohol to obtain the maximum amount of benefit.  The non-alcohol stuff just doesn't produce tincture that is as effective.

Or-- you could use half and half (half HerbPharm tincture and half powdered milk thsitle.  I've done that as well.

Once I see your bloodwork -- there are other herbs that can be helpful -- but they tend to be better given in concert (meaning a blend) aimed at different liver problems.  Like if the ALT and AST are both high, that can mean a bile duct problem and I'd use dandelion.  But I hesitate to just say "use this blend" until I know more about what's going on with Cody.

This is where the advice of a vet who is **extremely** well versed in herbology is critical.  It's honestly not good for you or I or anyone else to just suggest this or that.  To target the specific areas of concern, you need a vet who really knows their stuff regarding the liver and herbs. 

There are vet products like Marin and Denosyl -- (milk thistle and SAM-e respectively) but you can't give them in high doses.  They are simply milk thistle and SAM-e hyper-processed and hyper-refined for consistency.  They are high quality -- you can't use them in large doses however and you lose some of the safety you gain with the actual herb.

TAIL:

That can be another whole arrow pointing in a new direction.  Typically when you see a naked tail tip, tips of the back toes, ear tips - that can be ringworm (it's not a parasite - it's a fungal thing) related to low immunity.  HOWEVER -- what you describe sounds more like "thinning" of the coat on the tail rather than total hair loss (like in ringworm) --  if the coat is scraggly or patchy and particularly at Cody's age, it could also be thyroid in nature.

The thing about the thyroid is -- if the thyroid is out of balance that whacks everything else out! 

Don't have the vet do a typical lab thyroid test.  That won't tell you anything as accurately as you need.  Instead you want the vet to send the blood to either Hemopet in California or Michigan State Vet School so you get a breed-specific reading.  Even tho Cody isn't purebred, the particular mix will impact the thyroid a lot.  I have used both, and I strongly prefer Hemopet (http://www.hemopet.com ).  You want the Thyroid 5 panel (not just T3 and T4 -- that 5th TGAA level is really important).  I think it's $85 now ... and the blood can be sent Priority Mail -- it doesn't have to be sent overnight.  But have your vet pay particular attention to the Sample Page -- it will tell them the amount of blood to send in each tube.  They require more blood than usual because they re-test a lot).

Sorry -- this is a WHOLE lot -- and honestly there is even more.  But this will help start you, but please email me??  callieatcritturs@yahoo.com -- the honest "story" here is I'm going thru a particularly bad spell of sciatica and my time "sitting" at the computer is highly limited.  So I'm trying to get you to email me where I can access it easily and quickly so I can help you.  (Sorry -- I am so **OVER** this "not being able to sit" thing I could tear my own hair out!!  But I can lie in bed and read emails!! LOL).

PS (knew I missed something) -- DON'T substitute dairy in Dr. Dodd's diet.  Use lamb or beef instead.  But stay very low fat (it's one of the reasons she uses white fish).  There are other veggies you can add as well, but let's save that for email.  But by running the thyroid past her at Hemopet (Dr. Dodds **is** Hemopet) you'll get her take on that as well.  

@calliecritturs

PS (knew I missed something) -- DON'T substitute dairy in Dr. Dodd's diet. Use lamb or beef instead. But stay very low fat (it's one of the reasons she uses white fish). There are other veggies you can add as well, but let's save that for email. But by running the thyroid past her at Hemopet (Dr. Dodds **is** Hemopet) you'll get her take on that as well.

Hi  calliecritturs

This is a whole lot of useful information you have provided!  Just wanted to contribute a tiny bit about Denosyl, and why I want to get glutathione into my mutt Spike... I corresponded a while back with a Vet who lives in Australia, when I was in search of information about getting glutathione into my 11 year old mutt who has contracted cataracts.  This vet said that he (they) used Denosyl for this purpose with good results, so that is what I have been using.  It does seem to help a lot, but it is really expensive.  Here is the info I have to offer... I have read the Denosyl literature that comes in the box, and it does mention the glutathione as being the desired result, but it stresses that we should feed the tablet to the dog in a pill pocket at least ONE HOUR prior to a meal, as opposed to WITH a meal.  The enteric coating is important to prevent degradation of the pill and also slow down the digestion of the pill. (???)  This does not seem to agree with what I have been reading here on this web site about the digestion of the pill in the stomach being desireable.  Now I am confused.  

I do know that glutathione  is key to have in your own system, and I have been using N-Acetylcisteine tablets as a precursor to glutathione for my own health, for numerous reasons, one of which is to stave off cataracts.  [We learned of the effect on cataracts accidentally, when a dentist acquaintance of mine who uses glutathione routinely in an IV (as do I on a monthly basis), reported to our doctor that his eye care doctor said his cataracts had receded and virtually disappeared - he wanted to know why, and what he (the dentist) had been doing to reduce the cataracts.]  

I only recently paid attention to Sam-E when getting it for my wife to use for joint inflammation and stress relief (also packaged in foil packets the same way as denosyl) and read to my surprise that it has the similar result vis-a-vis production of glutathione.  The NAC is less expensive for me than Sam-E, and now I wish I had a method to determine the relative efficacy of Sam-E as compared to NAC in terms of their ability to result in glutathione.  

My mutt is 27 pounds and has insulin-dependent diabetes.  His vet (here in TN) is aware that we have been using the Denosyl (Spike's liver has not been an issue) but has no direct experience on treating cataracts.  I'm at the point of needing to order more of something to help with the cataracts.  By the way, the vet in Australia indicated that there is a relatively wide range of safety in using the Denosyl, and I have the impression that more than the standard dosage would be beneficial in terms of cataract reduction ... it just costs more.  Any comments?

Tom C.

@Underdog

@calliecritturs

PS (knew I missed something) -- DON'T substitute dairy in Dr. Dodd's diet. Use lamb or beef instead. But stay very low fat (it's one of the reasons she uses white fish). There are other veggies you can add as well, but let's save that for email. But by running the thyroid past her at Hemopet (Dr. Dodds **is** Hemopet) you'll get her take on that as well.

Hi calliecritturs

This is a whole lot of useful information you have provided! Just wanted to contribute a tiny bit about Denosyl, and why I want to get glutathione into my mutt Spike... I corresponded a while back with a Vet who lives in Australia, when I was in search of information about getting glutathione into my 11 year old mutt who has contracted cataracts. This vet said that he (they) used Denosyl for this purpose with good results, so that is what I have been using. It does seem to help a lot, but it is really expensive. Here is the info I have to offer... I have read the Denosyl literature that comes in the box, and it does mention the glutathione as being the desired result, but it stresses that we should feed the tablet to the dog in a pill pocket at least ONE HOUR prior to a meal, as opposed to WITH a meal. The enteric coating is important to prevent degradation of the pill and also slow down the digestion of the pill. (???) This does not seem to agree with what I have been reading here on this web site about the digestion of the pill in the stomach being desireable. Now I am confused.

I do know that glutathione is key to have in your own system, and I have been using N-Acetylcisteine tablets as a precursor to glutathione for my own health, for numerous reasons, one of which is to stave off cataracts. [We learned of the effect on cataracts accidentally, when a dentist acquaintance of mine who uses glutathione routinely in an IV (as do I on a monthly basis), reported to our doctor that his eye care doctor said his cataracts had receded and virtually disappeared - he wanted to know why, and what he (the dentist) had been doing to reduce the cataracts.]

I only recently paid attention to Sam-E when getting it for my wife to use for joint inflammation and stress relief (also packaged in foil packets the same way as denosyl) and read to my surprise that it has the similar result vis-a-vis production of glutathione. The NAC is less expensive for me than Sam-E, and now I wish I had a method to determine the relative efficacy of Sam-E as compared to NAC in terms of their ability to result in glutathione.

My mutt is 27 pounds and has insulin-dependent diabetes. His vet (here in TN) is aware that we have been using the Denosyl (Spike's liver has not been an issue) but has no direct experience on treating cataracts. I'm at the point of needing to order more of something to help with the cataracts. By the way, the vet in Australia indicated that there is a relatively wide range of safety in using the Denosyl, and I have the impression that more than the standard dosage would be beneficial in terms of cataract reduction ... it just costs more. Any comments?

Tom C.

UPDATE - Having re-read this note of mine, I now see that perhaps the Denosyl instructions about "at least an hour before a meal" are intended to allow time for the enteric coating to be dissolved before the digestion of the meal begins, thereby inducing more digestion of the tablet.  I am obviously still confused about this aspect of the objectives of enteric coatings, which I was under the impression was to inhibit digestion in the stomach, and encourage absorption in the intestines.  DUH???

@Underdog

@Underdog

@calliecritturs

PS (knew I missed something) -- DON'T substitute dairy in Dr. Dodd's diet. Use lamb or beef instead. But stay very low fat (it's one of the reasons she uses white fish). There are other veggies you can add as well, but let's save that for email. But by running the thyroid past her at Hemopet (Dr. Dodds **is** Hemopet) you'll get her take on that as well.

Hi calliecritturs

This is a whole lot of useful information you have provided! Just wanted to contribute a tiny bit about Denosyl, and why I want to get glutathione into my mutt Spike... I corresponded a while back with a Vet who lives in Australia, when I was in search of information about getting glutathione into my 11 year old mutt who has contracted cataracts. This vet said that he (they) used Denosyl for this purpose with good results, so that is what I have been using. It does seem to help a lot, but it is really expensive. Here is the info I have to offer... I have read the Denosyl literature that comes in the box, and it does mention the glutathione as being the desired result, but it stresses that we should feed the tablet to the dog in a pill pocket at least ONE HOUR prior to a meal, as opposed to WITH a meal. The enteric coating is important to prevent degradation of the pill and also slow down the digestion of the pill. (???) This does not seem to agree with what I have been reading here on this web site about the digestion of the pill in the stomach being desireable. Now I am confused.

I do know that glutathione is key to have in your own system, and I have been using N-Acetylcisteine tablets as a precursor to glutathione for my own health, for numerous reasons, one of which is to stave off cataracts. [We learned of the effect on cataracts accidentally, when a dentist acquaintance of mine who uses glutathione routinely in an IV (as do I on a monthly basis), reported to our doctor that his eye care doctor said his cataracts had receded and virtually disappeared - he wanted to know why, and what he (the dentist) had been doing to reduce the cataracts.]

I only recently paid attention to Sam-E when getting it for my wife to use for joint inflammation and stress relief (also packaged in foil packets the same way as denosyl) and read to my surprise that it has the similar result vis-a-vis production of glutathione. The NAC is less expensive for me than Sam-E, and now I wish I had a method to determine the relative efficacy of Sam-E as compared to NAC in terms of their ability to result in glutathione.

My mutt is 27 pounds and has insulin-dependent diabetes. His vet (here in TN) is aware that we have been using the Denosyl (Spike's liver has not been an issue) but has no direct experience on treating cataracts. I'm at the point of needing to order more of something to help with the cataracts. By the way, the vet in Australia indicated that there is a relatively wide range of safety in using the Denosyl, and I have the impression that more than the standard dosage would be beneficial in terms of cataract reduction ... it just costs more. Any comments?

Tom C.

UPDATE - Having re-read this note of mine, I now see that perhaps the Denosyl instructions about "at least an hour before a meal" are intended to allow time for the enteric coating to be dissolved before the digestion of the meal begins, thereby inducing more digestion of the tablet. I am obviously still confused about this aspect of the objectives of enteric coatings, which I was under the impression was to inhibit digestion in the stomach, and encourage absorption in the intestines. DUH???

I've never used SAM-e for that purpose.  To be blunt -- I wouldn't use Denosyl ever and for moral reasons.  The extensive "testing" that NutraMaxx does on their products starts with them **inducing** liver failure -- and how??  I'm not going to repeat it online but it is beyond invasive and cruel.  Then after all their wonderful testing to document how "well"  it works on high liver values, they euthanize all the test subjects in order to do necropsies.  We're not talking a few dogs here -- and this is how NutraMaxx does ALL their testing.  

OK -- Denosyl is SAM-e -- and yes, you will find that it's really not digested well (Denamarin tends to be even more difficult).  

My choice is CellFood SAM-e -- it's a high quality SAM-e that is a liquid and  it is super absorbable.  Because it's drops you can tailor the dose specifically to what you want your dog to have.  I use it for myself for arthritis.

You can't use more of the Denosyl.  Because of how hyper-processed it is, you can't increase the dose.  

However, it is my experience (both personal and what I've tracked of others I know trying it to get down high liver values in a dog) and my understanding from all I've read that yes -- you can use far more SAM-e when you are using it for a specific purpose rather than just casual "Oh gee, this looks good" use -- specifically with  regular human SAM-e tablets/capsules  and CellFood SAM-e.  Again with the enteric human SAM-e tablets usually I suggest that people crush them so they can digest in the stomach (dogs really don't digest much of anything well in the intestines).  

I just emailed the folks who make CellFood SAM-e to see specifically what they say about glutathione so we'll see what sort of answer I get.

@Underdog

@Underdog

@calliecritturs

I do know that glutathione is key to have in your own system, and I have been using N-Acetylcisteine tablets as a precursor to glutathione for my own health, for numerous reasons, one of which is to stave off cataracts. [We learned of the effect on cataracts accidentally, when a dentist acquaintance of mine who uses glutathione routinely in an IV (as do I on a monthly basis), reported to our doctor that his eye care doctor said his cataracts had receded and virtually disappeared - he wanted to know why, and what he (the dentist) had been doing to reduce the cataracts.]

I only recently paid attention to Sam-E when getting it for my wife to use for joint inflammation and stress relief (also packaged in foil packets the same way as denosyl) and read to my surprise that it has the similar result vis-a-vis production of glutathione. The NAC is less expensive for me than Sam-E, and now I wish I had a method to determine the relative efficacy of Sam-E as compared to NAC in terms of their ability to result in glutathione.

My mutt is 27 pounds and has insulin-dependent diabetes. His vet (here in TN) is aware that we have been using the Denosyl (Spike's liver has not been an issue) but has no direct experience on treating cataracts. I'm at the point of needing to order more of something to help with the cataracts. By the way, the vet in Australia indicated that there is a relatively wide range of safety in using the Denosyl, and I have the impression that more than the standard dosage would be beneficial in terms of cataract reduction ... it just costs more. Any comments?

Tom C.

UPDATE - Having re-read this note of mine, I now see that perhaps the Denosyl instructions about "at least an hour before a meal" are intended to allow time for the enteric coating to be dissolved before the digestion of the meal begins, thereby inducing more digestion of the tablet. I am obviously still confused about this aspect of the objectives of enteric coatings, which I was under the impression was to inhibit digestion in the stomach, and encourage absorption in the intestines. DUH???

This is the pertinent part of the reply I got from Robert Hicken at Lumina Health (they make CellFood SAM-e):

"I don't have a great deal of information on this subject, but from our Cellfood SAM-e brochure, it states, "Sam-e also contributes to the building blocks of cartilage, and is involved in making glutathione, which the liver uses to remove poisonous toxins from the body."

I've also typed "SAM-e" and "glutathione" in a web search and see that there seems to be a good bit of corroborating support for this statement.  As such, I believe it is safe to tell your friend that it helps the production of glutathione.  However, it would be a violation of federal regulations for our company to suggest it might help with cataracts and  I can also find no specific evidence that SAM-e would be potentially beneficial in this area.  As such, he/she might wish to discuss this with their own health professional."

Hope that helps.  Callie

And everyone who knows me knows I wasn't "up early" at    4:something A.M.  -- "up early" isn't in my vocabulary ... "up late" yes! LOL

Hi, I am new to this forum and hope you don't mind me butting in to your thread but you seem to know so much regarding the liver, I wonder if you would help me. My 7 month old Biewer Yorkie reacted very badly with neurological symptoms after  my vet administered antibiotics, Frontline spray and Panacur. They say there is no connection but  he was fine before taking these meds. He has had various tests including an acid bile test which was 60. He has recovered from most of the symptoms except being wobbly on his back legs. They sent me to a specialist who want to do a liver biopsy and MRI scan. I am so worried and don't know what to do for the best, he only weighs 1.1kg and I don' want to overload his system with more toxins. I would be so grateful for any help.

If you're talking to me I'm happy to help.  My email is callieatcritturs@yahoo.com -- and I'll probably pass you my phone number just because it's usually faster and easier.  

Frontline spray can be a double-edged sword if the dog in any way ingested it (like licked itself or rolled on the carpet then walked across it and licked their paws) -- the abx?? It all depends on what antibiotic was used.

You'll need to use milk thistle and CellFood SAM-e at the least.  If you want to chat I can help you with doses (but both milk thistle and SAM-e -- you'll need to use more than you'd think to get the liver levels down).

Has the vet done just a plain full spectrum blood panel so you know what the liver values are??

Hi, I have sent you my email address as I live in London, England.

email sent