A different method of acupuncture

Had it done on the dogs **AND** on me. And honestly -- everything you said about this person is exactly why I try to steer folks away from IVAS trained vets to the TCVM trained ones. I've had three different DOM (doctors of oriental medicine) use the "cold laser" or "electronic acupuncture" on me at varying times, with slightly different "machines". Result? Absolutely **nothing**.

Typically when *I* get acupuncture (I'll talk about the dogs in a second but I *know* how I have felt simply by experience) I usually don't walk out "changed" -- which is typically quite a disappointment to the practitioner. *shrug* sorry -- that's ME.

But **tomorrow** is the test. Usually tomorrow I can tell plainlyl if I'm better or not. 99 times out of 100 I do feel better with traditional acupuncture. 24-25 times out of 24-25 times (which is about how many times I've had the electronic stuff) -- absolutely zero measureable response. On me it just plain does not work. My current DOM has tried several of these little dealies on me -- and he always has to go back to plain needle acupuncture because it's the *only* thing that helps. We're talking treatments for arthritis, sciatica, cellulitis, bronchitis and a wide variety of things.

IVAS really pushes electronic acupuncture because it "seems" safer. People tend to be pre-disposed to be wary or fearful of needles and that often translates to their feelings about it being done on their dogs. It "sounds" less risky but what folks don't understand is how rarely acupuncture needles cause bleeding. It's truly rare (and in Chinese medicine that tiny bit of blood-letting is actually considered a **very** good thing).

Now to be honest - on the dogs I see the same thing, altho thankfully my vets DO use traditional needle acupuncture. But I know from all the people who write/talk to me -- when they've looked for acupuncture vets for their IMHA dogs or arthritis dogs -- the ones who wind up at vets using electronic acupuncture - typically people just fall away because it doesn't help

Now as to the different needles -- there are a multitude of different "types" of needles. The ones my primary acupuncture vet uses she chooses a needle that is less 'slippery' because it stays in better (nothing like seeing the vet take 20 minutes to place needles, the dog gives ONE shake and they all go flying!).

She had a different type/brand of needle that she used on Kee Shu that was unbelievably thin -- she literally took one and showed me she could tie a knot in it -- it was more the consistency of a fiber than any sort of metal but it WAS truly a needle. But she said it allowed her to thread the needle sort of over and under muscle tissue, which in Kee's case gave her the result she wanted (since she was so elderly and her flesh was so soft a needle could potentially just fall out from gravity).

Again on me I've had doctors change to different needles by what they wanted to do.

How a vet "throws" a needle (which is what they call inserting the needles) often is different from vet to vet. I've seen some just take a needle with no sheath, pick up the skin and just push it in. Typically Dr. DiNatale uses a little plastic straw 'sheath' which helps keep the needle straight so it can pierce the skin -- acupuncture needles are often so thin it's difficult to pierce the skin.

They also will use a different "weight" needle depending on the particular dog -- Billy's skin on his paws and neck got toughened from all the times he was stuck for blood during IMHA treatment and it actually made his skin "tough" so it made some needles more difficult to insert.

IVAS vets are typically **not** trained in herbology very well -- that tends to be a TCVM vet thing (and herbology is actually one of the specializations they can do).

But what you're describing would make *my* blood run cold. I don't like it when a vet makes my dogs symptoms "fit" something he's got on the shelf in his reception area.

If you haven't looked on the Chi web page lately -- it's amazing how many vets are becoming certified. http://www.tcvm.com --

I wish I could give you different examples - but I've often advocated that IMHA dog owners use acupuncture/herbs to help minimize the trauma of IMHA and the IVAS vets just plain often don't measure up.

  Thanks Callie; I took Jessie to a TCVM vet four years ago for bronchitis. He examined her, though the exam was different from a regular vet. He classified her as an earth dog and I think that some of the acupuncture points were based on that. He didn't know if the treatments would help the bronchitis; I remember that some of the acupressure points were to strengthen her immune system. He seemed to be very caring. He prescribed powdered herbs but Jessie wouldn't eat her food with the herbs mixed in; they were very bitter. He gave me syringes so I could mix the herbs with water and give them to her but when I tried it she gagged. Because she has LP, I was worried that she would get aspiration pneumonia so I didn't try using a syringe after that. The herbs probably would have helped. We decided after five treatments to stop because her coughing hadn't improved.  Fortunately she responded well to the Flovent inhaler and I was able to avoid giving her oral steroids. I almost went back to him instead of going to this other vet, and now I wish I had.

  

  

  

Sinbad has seen both Chi Institute trained/TCVM acu vets (as we call them) and an IVAS acu vet. I much prefer the TVCM vets--they seem to "get" dogs better (at least that's been my experience). Sinbad has had different sized needles, with and without the straw thingy. It depends where the needles are going, who is doing the acu, etc. The acu vet he sees now prefers one size needle and does not use the straw thingies.

We have done the electro acu once and may do it 1-2 more times. His acu vet (TCVM) won't do it every session and we always do traditional. (That's what I call it--I'm sure there's a better word.) We've figured out his pain meds finally, which has helped everything. The TCVM vet helped with that, too.

My big worry now is his lar par in the hot weather, and that is why we may use the electro acu for that. We'll do traditional acu, too. (We're not pursuing the tie back surgery--it's just not a good choice for him at his age. All his vets (traditional and acu) are in agreement about that, too, and I trust them completely.)

My IVAS acu vet experience was completely different, and I really wouldn't go that route if I can avoid it. 

FrisbyPI

My big worry now is his lar par in the hot weather, and that is why we may use the electro acu for that. We'll do traditional acu, too. (We're not pursuing the tie back surgery--it's just not a good choice for him at his age. 

 

  Fortunately we have central air, which is helpful in keeping Jessie comfortable. I'm sure you walk Sinbad early in the day, as I do for Jessie. She has had LP for four years and has been doing well so far, but it has been progressing.  I am very interested in trying acupuncture for the LP.  Will this be Sinbad's first summer with LP? We don't allow Jessie to lay in the sun if it's over 60 degrees and only let her out long enough to potty if it's over 80. I find it helps if to use a plant mister to wet Jessie's stomach and armpits before I walk her. 

Sinbad doesn't go on many walks outside the yard (which is large) in the late spring/summer. He wants to, but he just gets too tired/low oxygen too quickly. This is the second summer we've dealt with the lar par--last year was really hot and humid (well over 80 for days on end), so he didn't do much unless the mornings were cool and not humid. (The humidity is a real issue for him and it's a beast here sometimes.) I do try to cool him off with wet cloths. I think the acu helps--he feels better after the treatments, that's for sure! I like your plant mister bottle idea--we'll try that, too!

FrisbyPI

The humidity is a real issue for him and it's a beast here sometimes.) 

 

   Poor Sinbad. It's harder for them to cool off when it's humid. If it's above 65 and humid, I limit Jessie's walks to 20 minutes. Sometimes I take her to PetsMart and we walk up and down all the aisles. I thought about cooling coats but for Jessie I think wetting her down before walks works better. Jessie is on clopidogrel (generic for Plavix) because she's hypercoagulable  and would have to be off the drug for a week before having surgery. I worry about her having a breathing crisis and needing an emergency tie-back. I'm going to discuss the possibility of her having the tie-back surgery with our internist next week. If he doesn't think a breathing crisis is likely than I won't pursue the surgery. I will probably make an appointment with the TCVM vet next week to see if he thinks he can help with the LP. Your experience with acu for Sinbad is encouraging.

Janice -- depending on where that guy gets his herbs there is nearly *always* a version either in capsules or "tea pills" (little tiny black BB=looking pills). And (and I have done this both for me and for the dogs) you can also literally buy gelatin capsules, dump the powder on a sheet of plastic or waxed paper in front of you and scoop your own capsules and put together!! Time-consuming but *I* am not nearly as good at taking a powder as good Chinese or Korean children are *laughing* -- Dr. Shin has laughed at me many times because I'm not good at taking the powders at all.

The other thing (and I did this for Muffin for a LONG time) - you can take just a tiny bit of water, stir it into the powder and then pick up a bit and roll it in your palms to make a round "pill" -- then let it dry overnight. I used to make them up once a week. You could even roll them to be a bit tubular rather than round pills and then break them so you can keep the pills relatively small. It was a tad messy but not terribly time consuming and it made it easy for Mufferino to take them.

But seriously -- there are **many** different companies that make these, and most of these formulas are well known and you'll see KPC-Herbs, Seven Forests, Plum Flower, Jin Tang (which is formulas from the Chi Institute) and several other companies -- So like right in front of me I have a bottle of KPC Xiao Feng San in powder-filled capsules (sort of an allergy pill) for Charlie -- but a few years ago Dr. DiNatale had Billy on Xiao Feng San that was Plum Flower Tea Pills.

From company to company the formulations are very similar but can be a bit different. I've seen Dr D switch from Plum Flower to KPC just to tweak it as one formula may fit this time better than the other. *or* one form may go down more easily than another.

My point is -- if Jessie can't take the powder (and some of them are viciously bitter!!) then ask him to find that formula elsewhere. That's one of the things that the Chi Institute does -- they call or email and consult with each other as to what formula may be preferable.

Also, Janice & Kate both -- when you sit down with the vet as they needle the dogs -- ASK them to also show you where to do accupressure on if it would help. I know there is a stop-coughing point right at the top of the breastbone. I used to use that on Socks all the time to help her stop coughing. You take your index finger and press/push it in right at the top of the breastbone so your finger pokes in that place just above the breastbone and hook the tip of your finger behind the top of that bone (literally you go in to the first knuckle pressing the skin over the top of the breastbone). That point works awesomely to help stop coughing. It's easier to do on dogs than it is on a human.

Not at all painful for them -- but it STOPS a cough literally mid-cough. I'm pretty sure there must be similar points for the difficulty they have in laryngeal paralysis.

But ask -- often they don't ask owners to do stuff like this -- because a lot of people won't do it. But you guys would!

calliecritturs

Also, Janice & Kate both -- when you sit down with the vet as they needle the dogs -- ASK them to also show you where to do accupressure on if it would help.

That's a good recommendation. The acu vets have shown me a couple points for acupressure and massage points for Sinbad. It does help (in my opinion).  I'll ask if there are others I should know.

This morning, Sinbad seems to be having a reaction (swollen leg) to one of the pain meds (fairly low dose Tramadol), so I'll call the vet to see what to do. He has appointments with both his vets on Tuesday. He seems to develop the less common side effects to the meds! That's my boy.

 Callie; there were 2 containers and both had a variety of herbs. I'm fairly certain that they were Jin Tang. He did show me some acupressure points and also lent me the book Five Paws Four Directions to read. I used the "relaxing massage" from the book and should start using it again. It opens many meridians and you massage over many acupressure points; Jessie used to really enjoy it. I went to this new vet to see if she could help strengthen Jessie's rear legs, help with some of the soreness Jessie seems to have in her shoulders and also to see if she could help with the LP. She only put needles in the rear area ( they were the size of straight pins like you use for sewing). She used the cold laser around her shoulders. I wonder if she was afraid of being nipped? Maybe she felt the laser was adequate for the shoulders. Jessie was very good in spite of the size of the needles; I was very proud of her. Thanks for the tip about using empty capsules or making pills; I never thought of that.

FrisbyPI

This morning, Sinbad seems to be having a reaction (swollen leg) to one of the pain meds (fairly low dose Tramadol), so I'll call the vet to see what to do.

 

  I'm so sorry Kate and hope his leg is better soon. Is it possible that he was bitten by a spider or snake? Several years ago Jessie's front leg became very swollen from a water snake bite. Have you looked for a bite mark? It was easy to spot on Jessie's leg since it was draining fluid.

I've looked for a bee sting site or a bite mark--I haven't found anything so far. The swelling seems to have stopped but it's not going down yet. I applied cold cloths (a wet them and put them in the refrigerator for a hour or so)--Sinbad just wanted to lick them :-)

jessies_mom

I'm fairly certain that they were Jin Tang.

Kate -- as I said on the phone -- if you think this is any sort of allergic reaction then I'd be giving Benedryl "just in case". Even if it's slightly possible I'd treat it as an allergy and then call the vet in the morning if the swelling hasn't gone down. There's always the outside chance that it's a blood clot or something. The Jin Tang stuff does come in capsules but it's more expensive. *smile* they always tend to think that powders can just be taken, but it's more an American thing to want the capsules. The machines that encapsulate herbs are fiercely expensive (they are thousands of dollars) which is why you then realize that ANYTYHING in a capsule is way more expensive than you'd think it would be. You pay pennies for the actual drug or herb and it's the process of putting it in capsules that accounts for most of the price. I've seen the big reference books where it compares what's in each different formula company to company and I've seen Dr. D literally take 10-20 minutes to decide WHICH formula she wanted to give -- and the 'form' was a consideration as well. I just called Kate (because I knew I couldn't type THAT fast) -- don't hesitate to use Traumeel as well -- it comes in an injectible form that they sometimes use right in acupuncture points (used like that it can be as effective for pain/healing as steroids). Sometimes it's given subcutaneously. Dr. Demers just gave me a set of 7 syringes to give Sub-Q to Charlie every other day over the next 2 weeks -- and it was Traumeel + BHI Heel's "Allergy" formula just to help dial his allergies back some. You can get Traumeel -- either the tablets or the liquid -- at Whole Foods and a lot of health stores. Call around to find out who carries it. Traumeel is a homeopathic -- **don't** put that in food. Either crush it and pour in their mouth, or I just hang onto the tablet and I've taught my guys to nibble it right out of my fingers (breaking it up so it circulates a bit in their mouth). Tink thinks that way of taking "messsinine" ROCKS. She's the best at it *smile* -- she really 'gets' that I want her to scrape it with her teeth and she will til she's got about half of the tablet gone and suddenly it will break in my fingers and she'll chew it up!! Then I get presented with this Pug Smile like "yep -- I DID it agin, didn't I Mom?" I'd be anthromophorphic if I said she has a self-satisfied look?? *laughing* But it accomplishes what I need to and gives both of us a laugh.