seizures and phenobarbital

Hi Jenn - nice to "see" you, although I'm sorry it's for a serious medical reason that you came back!

I don't have any personal experience with seizures or epilepsy, but I just wanted to offer good vibes for Zack (and for you, as I know you're stressed out and worried -- I would be, too!).  I'm sure some other forum members will soon post some helpful information!

Hi -- it has been WAY too long since we've seen you!

Pheno is a nasty drug. 

Acpunctpure can really really help seizure dogs.  But so can certain herbals.  I would specifically direct you, not just to a vet who does acupuncture BUT a vet who does TCVM (Traditional Chinese Veterinary Medicine).  There ARE Oriental herbs that absolutely rock for dealing with seizures.

 The little peke rescue girl we had was 14 when she came to us.  She literally lived in a seizure-state ALL the time.  It was like one long continuously running petit mal siezure.  My TCVM vet put her on an herb called Di Tan Tang (it is one of Dr. Xie's formulas and he's the head of the Chi Institute which is a really good qualifying agency for TCVM.)

http://www.tcvm.com -- there is a locator on the left.

 Things that are 'calming' (typically a nervine herb) can really help seizures not to cluster. 

Spring can aggravate seizures hugely -- SO can a full moon (and no this isn't weird stuff - -it is true).  My pug has what the TCVM vet calls "pre-seizurey episodes" -- literally they are likely the precursor to seizure activity.  I don't have to have Tink on any of the hard hitting herbs yet -- but we may eventually get there.

 The Di Tan Tang I mentioned above is VERY close to phenopbarbitol in how it works and how WELLit works.  Now once you start on the drugs like pheno you really can't usually get the dog off it -- they are hugely addictive.  So if you haven't given that pill yet you may want to hold off yet again.  I know it makes you want to "MAKE IT STOP" but rushing into the drugs is not the best if you can avoid it.

 Let me know if I can help.  Callie

Feel free to email me --

Hi tacran and calliecritturs, thanks for your responses and it is great to be back...wish it was under better circumstances though!  Callie -  my integrative vet does practice Chinese medicine.  She is not in the directory under the link you provided which surprises me since she is pretty well known.  I am going to ask her about Di Tan Tang.  Unfortunately, I did start Zack on the phenobarbital yesterday.  I tried to hold out as long as possible (picked up the pills but didn't start them) but since he's had 6 seizures (and those are only the ones that I *know* of) in the course of 5 weeks the vet was adamant about starting him and using the herbs and holistic regimen to keep the pheno dose as low as possible and maybe wean off eventually.  I am going to email you later tonight

Jenn, I had a dog with severe seizures. Any medications have side effects, but at this point the most important thing is to get the seizures to stop. Cluster seizures are extremely dangerous and can be fatal to the dog. There are so many things that can be the cause you may never identify them. The may simply be ideopathic. I tried so many things with my dog, including acupuncture that didn't help and a couple of different herbals that caused more seizures, and it was all done under the guidance of a TCVM vet as well as my traditional vet. Seven months and nearly $4000 later, I chose to euthanize him. His last day he had 10 seizures w/in a 24 hour period. His quality of life was suffering, as was mine.

Not all cases end up like mine, but work with your vet(s) to find what works for your dog. The hardest part of dealing with the epilepsy is that there is no one-size-fits-all treatment. It is a very difficult disorder because there are so many variable.

An excellent book is Canine Epilepsy by Caroline Levine.

jenns

but since he's had 6 seizures (and those are only the ones that I *know* of) in the course of 5 weeks the vet was adamant about starting him and using the herbs and holistic regimen to keep the pheno dose as low as possible and maybe wean off eventually.

 There are a ton of new seizure drugs out there as well -- pheno is cheaper. Potassium bromide is also used a lot (it's a little easier on the liver but has it's own variety of side effects).  The newer seizure drugs apparently have far less side effects but are more expensive.

There are different qualifying agencies for veterinary acupuncturists. It's likely your vet is IVAS (International Veterinary Acupuncture Society) trained rather than Chi Institute trained.  IVAS vets are a bit more prone to using electronic acupuncture and things like the staples.  Chi-trained vets (the http://www.tcvm.com link is the Chi Institute website) tend to stick with regular acupuncture.  I've had a ton of acupuncture myself, and I know for *me* the traditional needle accupuncture is a whole lot more effective on me than the electronic acupuncture. 

One agency isn't bad nor good over the other -- just "different" in approach.  I don't know, personally, of any one using an IVAS vet for seizures (just because *I* don't know).  But I know several folks using the Chi method on seizure dogs and I know both from my own experience and the experience of friends that the Chi-trained vets have a good record with the herbs and acupuncture. The Chinese herbs are **way** different than western herbs -- particularly the ones used on seizures - they're really really helpful for stuff like this. 

 There is most definitely a time for drugs -- the typical goal of treating with TCVM is to minimize the drugs, and to also put things in place so you can minimize the risk of clusters.  If you remember Megan (slr2meg) who has Pirate, the little white terrier -- Pi has dealt with seizures for years.  He was originally on pheno and it caused thrombocytopenia (called pancytopenia in his case) and they switched him to Kbr (potassium bromide) at that time.  His dose of Kbr is pretty darned small but she's been able to manage the siezures with TCVM to help keep the dose low.  Pi actually has a liver shunt which is part of what makes him so prone to seizures.

You can email me at the address that's in my signature -- take care!

Oh my goodness sharismon, I'm so sorry to hear what you and your poor dog went through!  Yes I agree that the fact that there are so many variables makes it difficult and frustrating.  I want to know *why* these seizures are happening and I can't really get an answer and maybe never will.  Thanks for the book recommendation, I'll definitely check it out.

Callie - ok thanks for explaining the difference between the two accupuncture schools of thought.  I am so new to all of this!  Yes I do remember megan with Pirate...it sounds like his seizures are under control with minimal meds which is great.  I'm hoping that's the case with Zack.  He has now had 3 doses of phenobarbital and, knock on wood, haven't really seen any side effects.  Fingers are crossed I don't see seizures either!

jenns

Yes I do remember megan with Pirate...it sounds like his seizures are under control with minimal meds which is great.  I'm hoping that's the case with Zack

Pi's were no walk in the part, trust me.  At first she simply panicked -- in college, new dog, not a lot of experience -- the dog started to have these weird episodes and she essentially said to the vet "MAKE IT STOP" so they put Pi on drugs a bit too fast (and she didn't know that wasn't good). 

 But then the pheno triggered IMT (immune-mediated thrombocytopenia) -- and that particular "penia" is "pancytopenia" which in Pi's case was triggered by the pheno.  IMT is very life-threatening -- it's where the body kills its own platelets and Pi's were almost zero.  So he had to be on pred and of course that doesn't  go well with a dog with a liver shunt.

 In part they had to yank him off pheno and put him on Kbr ... let's just say it was quite a mess -- and that's when she started taking him to Dr. DiNatale's office (same place I take my dogs which is a huge hike for Megan cos she's on the coast),  But he responded really well to acupuncture and the herbals.  2-3 years ago Pi had a problem in the spring and started seizing again -- and you really don't want to increase the meds but neither do you want them clustering.  We did a road trip up to Gainesville and she got Pi in as a demo dog at the Chi Institute (yes, literally AT the school) -- But it was awesome to see.  Dr. Xie changed Pi's herbs and tweaked it a bit and had her tweak his food a bit and he's still doing really well. 

 If at all possible seizures are all about maintenance -- and hopefully getting to know your dog well enough so you can tune in on small behavioral changes that indicate "do something DIFFERENT ,,,, ***NOW***"  -=- or also understanding the myriad of known triggers that can cause problems.

 There are some dogs who never do respond well -- and some who do.  There is a massive bank of known "triggers" for seizures and a whole lot of them have to do with environmental stuff ... and even seasonal and cyclic stuff like phases of the moon.  (no that's not just an old wives tale)

 Holler at me any time.  Best of luck to you!!