Dog Community

Willy's Knee Issue

Posted : 9/7/2012 5:01:35 PM

Willy was at the vet today. He broke a tooth, snapped off the bottom part of it, and had a fracture of the rest, running up to and under the gumline. He had a dental (his other teeth are fine) and that tooth had to come out.

Because he was already under anesthesia, I took this opportunity to have x rays done. Willy has always done a "sloppy" sit, can't sit squared off. And he can't go from a sit to a down; instead he stands, bows and then lowers his rear end. Lately, he has also started not to bend or squat when he poops. His right leg stays straight, his left goes out to the side. In order to balance, he has to lower his head way down. Very awkward.

Here are photos and a short video (30 seconds)
His right
[IMG]http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q57/sfsamm/2012/Sept%207%202012%20Willys%20knee%20issue/IMG_5203Small.jpg[/IMG]

His left
[IMG]http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q57/sfsamm/2012/Sept%207%202012%20Willys%20knee%20issue/IMG_5202Small.jpg[/IMG]

And video: http://youtu.be/cfKas5NFl6o

X rays showed some arthirits in both hips, more in the left than the right. Right knee looks fine. Spine is fine. Left knee has a build up of fluid. It is not a luxating patella, that knee is sitting solid. So this suggests some sort of ligament issue. He does not limp; so the vet says it is not a complete rip of a ligament. It could be a partial, like a tear. No telling when he did this.

Options are:
- treat with pain medication*, see if that helps
- refer to an orthopedic specialist

Willy is already on glucosamine and chondroitin, and we may add Adequan in future. He just turned age 9 years on Sept 5th.

For now, he is on pain meds* for the tooth extraction, so we will get to see if there is any improvement with that.

The part that stumps me is, what if the pain meds work "for a while," and then he has made things worse -- by which time he will also be older. I just don't know which way to go with this.

*Edited to clarify: he is on a NSAID, non - steroidal anti inflammatory drug. At this time he is on Rimadyl which is prescribed for the tooth extraction, and we will see if it makes any difference to his knee issue.

luv3dogs

Posted : 9/7/2012 6:51:57 PM

Sandie:

If Willy has a ligament injury, this can be managed non-surgically. The Yahoo Group “Conservative Management” has a wealth of information on CCL injuries, and I strongly recommend that you sign up, read the files, and post your questions along with links to Willy’s videos. Consulting with an orthopedic vet is ok too, but be forewarned – ortho vets like to push surgery, even though Willy, being a smaller, older (more sedate) dog, would be an excellent candidate for non-surgical Conservative Management. If there is no improvement after a few months of CM, surgery is still an option.

After our Pixie (then 8 years old and 11 lbs) tore her CCL, we had initially arranged for surgery. While waiting for her surgery date, I had second thoughts, found the Yahoo website, and decided to try the non-surgical route instead. This involves strict confinement – no running, jumping or stairs, no playing with other dogs, no jumping on furniture – for at least 8 weeks. During this time, Pixie was allowed outside only for the few minutes necessary to potty. At all other times, she was held securely on our laps or restricted to a crate or ex-pen. Our wood floors were covered with cheap rugs so that Pixie would not slip while walking. After the 8 weeks, little by little she was allowed to spend more time walking slowly around the house and in the yard (but still confined in a small carpeted area or on a short leash) for another 3 – 4 months. Total recovery time was about 6 months, after which Pixie was basically as good as new. Last week, I noticed Pixie limping, toe touching, and head bobbing again, this time on her other knee, so we immediately went back to CM. The following day, she seemed much better, so after a week of restricted activity, I let her out of “jail” and so far she seems to be doing well. At no time in the process did we give Pixie any pain-killers, since she did not seem to be in severe pain and we were thinking that what pain she did have would serve as a reminder to stay quiet and not aggravate the injury further. Good luck with Willy!

Freedom

Posted : 9/7/2012 7:39:29 PM

Thank you. I have just been over there, signed up / joined that group and posted the question. Will spend some time reading the threads there.

I don't know if 'he may have a ligament issue' means this is CCL? I don't know if the cruciate is the only ligament in the knee area?

Willy has been active in Agility. He LOVES it so much and is ready to start in competitions. After 18 months, we took a break for the summer, in part because I don't like running for either of us in the humidity and heat, and in part because I didn't know what was wrong with him. Just been waiting and pondering, and then this dental issue meant he was having anesthesia, so I worked in the x rays. The vet did say the specialist will probably want to take a MRI to figure out what the problem is as we really don't know at this time.

luv3dogs

Posted : 9/7/2012 10:26:45 PM

If Willy really does have an injury, or even a "wear and tear" condition, he will probably need to extend his break until he fully heals. The Yahoo group files include the story of Nevada, a border collie who until her ligament injury was among the top 5 dog diving dogs in the country. Her mom devoted much time and effort to her rehabilitation, and last I heard she had resumed dock diving. More recently, Nevada learned to dive to the bottom of the deep end of a swimming pool to fetch her favorite toys, and there is a widely circulated picture of her doing so somewhere on the Net. So it is possible for Willly to resume Agility, once his orthopedic problems are taken care of. Again, good luck, and I hope he will be able to do Agility soon.

jessies_mom

Posted : 9/8/2012 10:55:24 AM

Awww, poor baby. He is so cute! Is the vet sure it's a ligament issue or could it be arthritis? A few years ago, Jessie started limping. I had my vet check her and since she was 11, the vet wanted to do x-rays to see if it was hip dysplasia. Her hips were fine, but she had arthritis in both knees and fluid in the right knee. She was on Rimadyl for 10 days to clear up the fluid, and did better for awhile. Then she started limping again. I did massage and acupressure for the knee, which worked as well as the Rimadyl. I also changed joint supplements to Dasuquin soft chews with MSM; they have worked so well that she doesn't need the acupressure anymore. Good luck; I hope you can figure this out.

Freedom

Posted : 9/8/2012 2:59:27 PM

Jessie's Mom, that's the thing. From the xrays, the vet can only diagnose the arthritis and fluid on the left knee. She can't see soft tissue to determine what is causing the fluid build up. She explained that is a symptom, but at this time we don't know of what.

I will look into the dasuquin you mentioned. I use Joint Care 3 by Drs. Foster and Smith, but that could change.

If you remember, how could you tell that the fluid "cleared up" after 10 days of Rimadyl? The vet can't 'feel' it in my case. Did you redo xrays? Or was there something you could feel or see?

jessies_mom

Posted : 9/8/2012 6:13:36 PM

Freedom
If you remember, how could you tell that the fluid "cleared up" after 10 days of Rimadyl? The vet can't 'feel' it in my case. Did you redo xrays? Or was there something you could feel or see?

We didn't redo the xrays, but the Rimadyl was prescribed to clear up the fluid because it's an anti-inflammatory. I don't remember exactly how long it was after she finished the Rimadyl until she stared limping again, but I called my vet and told him I was going to try acupressure and massage, and he agreed that it may help. This is a link to the video on YouTube that shows how it's done;

YouTube - Dog Acupressure for Knee Arthritis : Dog Massage for Knee Arthritis: Sacrum

A holistic vet had taught me how to do acupressure, so I was familiar with it. Dasuquin is made by the same company that makes Cosequin, which is the first joint supplement that was developed for dogs and cats. I had been using a simple joint supplement before that, which I got from Monica Segal. After being on the Dasuquin for about a month, she didn't need the massage and acupressure anymore. My vet didn't mention soft tissue injury, but said the arthritis caused the fluid.

Freedom

Posted : 9/8/2012 6:59:03 PM

Oh my THANK YOU for those links! (I haven't even looked at them yet, lol) I am feeling much better thinking we can manage this without more expenses at the vet. It is difficult when you have a symptom but not a diagnosis. So I guess we will be trying a few things, see how things progress.

calliecritturs

Posted : 9/9/2012 12:49:11 AM

You can do Knox NutraJoint (Osteo Bi-Flex makes it now) really helps with arthritis.

But I'm going to tell you to consider TCVM -- a vet who does acupuncture. It's not as expensive as you'd think (no testing -- but it ROCKS for helping something really heal). Holler at me and I can tell you anything you need to know but it's 2:00 a.m. and my brain is fried.