Vaccines/titers

 I'm going to titer Nog, but I do get the reduced lab fee pricing since I work at a vet.  Our clinic, while they don't recommend them on their own, are perfectly fine with sending them out.

I do believe that MSU is very cheap on their titer pricing, much cheaper than our standard lab cost (something like $30 each).  I think when we calculated it, our standard lab was cheaper for me due to the discount (you have to pay shipping for MSU) but for regular clients, MSU was cheaper.   I'm sure your vet can give you a run down on prices, and if they won't, I'd suggest that you'll go elsewhere.  Or, you can look up prices on your own and go to them with a "this is what I'm planning to do" list.

ETA that Nog's former owners said he was vaccinated for Distemper/Parvo, but didn't have records. If i knew the specific date he was vaccinated, I'd be less inclined to titer, as I do feel the vaccines are very long lasting.

I don't vaccinate Ginger anymore for DIstemper/Parvo, and won't be Jules either unless I have to board him and they insist upon it

dyan

it only lasts a year

Huh?  What only lasts a year?  A blood test measures current values, but it doesn't "last" at all.

Hemopet does a parvo/distemper titer for $45.  I am not sure if it $45 for both or $45 for each.
http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/Adobe/TEST_REQ_FORMandINSTRUCTIONS-2-12.pdf

Of course, that doesn't include the cost of drawing, preparing, or shipping the blood.

At 4-yrs-old I would not be giving any additional distemper/parvo vaccines - ever.  Titers should be fine for boarding, etc.  A trip to a dog park a couple of weeks before the blood draw will greatly up the chances of a high titer. 

A titer measures antibodies against a disease.  When immunity is first established by a vaccine, a titer will be high, but antibodies dissipate over time.  This does not mean that immunity dissipates. 

A subsequent high titer says that there are still lots of antibodies.  A subsequent low titer tells you nothing about the dog's ability to generate more antibodies when they are needed.  That is the role of memory cells and we have no way to directly measure their strength.  Challenge testing over time is currently the only way to tell how long memory cells (immunity) last. 

Once a dog has a high titer a low titer just says the dog has not been exposed to the disease (environmentally or via vaccine) recently enough to have a lot of antibodies present.  I am convinced that an additional vaccine for parvo/distemper after that low titer just generates a lot of antibodies and has no effect on the dog's immunity level.

Edited to add the text in orange and to correct a grammar typo.

Everything Janet said -- absolutely EVERYTHING.

A titer is a "picture" -- it's what is in the blood *today*.  So all that babble about it only "lasting" is just that ... babble by someone who has not a clue!!

It is simply an examination of the blood to see what antibodies are present in the blood on the date that blood was drawn. 

 Most lab titers simply send you a "sufficient" or "insufficient" response.  I know at least Cornells' titers give you a "number" so year after year as you titer you can see if it's sliding downward and you may decide to booster when it goes below acceptable levels in a few years.

However, We've sent them to Dr. Dodds for the past 2-3 years and I will tell you WHY I like hers.  She will not only do the titer (which is a numbered titer so you actually **see** where on the scale it is) but she also **writes her own conclusions** in ENGLISH (not medical babble) -- something like "This titer looks more than sufficient." 

It's really helpful then if you take those titer results to a kennel, or some event where you have to show proof of vaccines.  You have a well-known and respected vet's opinion in writing. 

I do this once a year all at once.  I do the thyroid exam, distemper/parvo titers and a full blood workup annually that my vet sends to Hemopet.  Dr. Dodds requires quite a lot of blood but it says on her page with the prices how many vials of which she needs for each test.

Not cheap -- not as cheap as a regular vet (and in my opinion, if your vet is charging you more than $45 if they are just sending it to Antech it's a rip-off intended to DISCOURAGE you from doing it)

But with your proxiimity to MSU I can't imagine they wouldn't do a terrific job!  So if that's easier for you great.  I just like that written recommendation of Dr. Dodds. 

You generally can't titer rabies anyway (you have to send it to Auburn or Kansas State) and only then if it's medically necessary (like a dog with an auto-immune disease who can't be vax'd or a dog who is going to travel far). 

Frankly -- if a vet told me they wouldn't titer I'd have a hissy.  I wouldn't call and "ask" if they do it.  I'd be calling them saying "I want my dog titered for distemper and parvo and either I want it sent to Dr. Dodds at Hemopet OR I want it sent to MSU -- how much will it be?"

Last year when we got Charlie from NY, I called the vet up there and said exactly that.  They had a bit of heartburn about it -- TOUGH -- GET OVER IT and do it!!  They did.  He was fine and did NOT need extra vax. 

A receptionist is not a tech usually, and honestly many of them have preconceived notions that they've gotten from vets they've worked with.  so they think they have to discourage you .... Don't let it happen.  It's a blood test -- that's all.

Thanks Guys!  Yes Callie, I think she was for sure trying to discourage me and no doubt because the clinic doesn't want to do them.   Janet...after I wrote this I found the prices from Dr. Dodds at hemopet, not sure though if I have the correct current page to locate them at...if you guys have it could you please post in? I spent time trying to find current vaccine schedule from Dr. Jeam Dodds and found all old stuff.

 Thanks for the explaination of how a titer works, I have read it a bunch of times but never remember it.    And yes...she did say ONLY LASTS ONE YEAR. I called late in the day and it could have been a receptionist but it could have been a tech since I called so late. BUT the very worst will be my vet who is on vacation right now.... she will REALLY try to discourage me...I worked for her and she is now at the clinic on the next street from me...so I go to her and the good thing is she will answer phone calls or texts personally from me. BUT she also thinks I'm a nut case over vaccines as when I got Gibby she was always trying to get me to get him more vaccines and treatments. I never gave him a lepto or lyme or whatever...and she thought I was nuts for not getting him the distemper at the same time as the rabies..... and then she was upset at me for not getting him neutered right away.......and her famous words to me were " you and your Internet!"   hahaha...... stuck to my guns all the way.   BUT I have taken Gibby to a holistic vet a couple of times and of course we had his thyroid test sent to Dr. Dodds thru her.  I will call her first thing monday.     Honestly the only reason I am pursuing the titers is because of this lady that lives about 20 minutes away that lost 4 dogs to parvo and they were older and already vaccinated.   Kind of just puts the fright into me!

 I only get rabies now, for my dogs and cats.  They've all had multiple vaccines for years and thank goodness no one has had a reaction.  Now I know more and I am confident they all have enough.

 I suggest you call around to a few different vet offices for info on titer pricing. 

Also, I was surprised with the comment that the receptionist is usually not a tech.  That must vary place to place.  The 2 vets I have used, the techs all work the front desk, there is no "receptionist only" type person.

dyan

Honestly the only reason I am pursuing the titers is because of this lady that lives about 20 minutes away that lost 4 dogs to parvo and they were older and already vaccinated.   Kind of just puts the fright into me!

Dyan -- you gotta understand something -- if this is a "new strain" of parvo -- a brand new booster shot THIS year, allowing 4-6 weeks for "immunity" to form would **NOT*** prevent the dog from getting that new strain of parvo!!

It's just like with a flu shot Dyan -- it is only effective for matching strains.   If this lady's dogs have been exposed to some brand new variety of parvo, then current vaccines would be worthless against it. 

 Even if a titer is "low" ... frankly it's still protective.  As Janet's post above says -- when the titer is low that just means the body hasn't been exposed to it recently enough for a large amount of antibodies to be present.  BUT the body still has a DNA record of that antibody and if the body is exposed then generally the body will pull out that antibody 'recipe' from the DAN and form them as protection.   (which is why a dog who has had IMHA and doesn't take vaccines any more really isn't as much 'risk' from the vaccinated diseases -- because the body can pull out that cell memory of that antibody anyt ime.

 Cell memory isn't a unknown concept by vets -- but it's not a popular thing for them to  want people to know about because they'd rather have people rely on the vaccines.

But this is one of the **best** reasons for NOT over-vaccinating -- because you lower their immunity if you load too many vaccines in.   It is debilitating for the body to have to rebuild immunity (particularly against the combo shot with it's many many diseases).

dyan

Honestly the only reason I am pursuing the titers is because of this lady that lives about 20 minutes away that lost 4 dogs to parvo and they were older and already vaccinated.

Read about canine parvo (also known as CPV2) at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canine_parvovirus.
"CPV2 continues to evolve, and the success of new strains seems to depend on extending the range of hosts affected and improved binding to its receptor, ...  Two more strains of canine parvovirus CPV2a and CPV2b were identified in 1979 and 1984 respectively. Most cases of canine parvovirus infection are believed to be caused by these two strains, which have replaced the original strain, and the present day virus is different from the one originally discovered although they are indistinguishable by most routine tests. A third type, CPV2c (a Glu-426 mutant), has been discovered in Italy, Vietnam, and Spain."

The above is a bit out-of-date because CPV2c has now been documented on all continents except Australia.  It has been in the U.S. since at least 2006.

It is likely that those four dogs received a vaccine that just didn't include the strain that killed them.  They may have had strong immunity to the parvo strains that were in their vaccine.  Current vaccines cover CPV2a, CPV2b, and CPV2c.

Sorry to worry you, but a dog with a high titer or which is revaccinated has absolutely no guarantee of protection against new strains of parvo.  New strains may not even stick around long enough to make it into a vaccine.

Personally I would have some Parvaid in my doggie first aid kit and I would read up on these sites:
http://wolfcreekranch1.tripod.com/heal_parvo.html
http://wolfcreekranch1.tripod.com/heal_parvo2.html

EXACTLY-- what she said **AGAIN**.

Freedom

Also, I was surprised with the comment that the receptionist is usually not a tech.  That must vary place to place.  The 2 vets I have used, the techs all work the front desk, there is no "receptionist only" type person.

I really have no idea "what" answered the phone...but it was late and they were probably ready to close and the clinic I worked at for 4 years was possible that even the vet would have answered it phone,,,but not probable I must say. BUT it was a very busy hospital and they did not want the  phones ringing long so everyone was told to answer the phone if it rang past 3 rings. Typically we as receptionists would make sure to answer it by 3 rings, BUT in the event that we couldn't if the phone was very busy and there was only one of us at the desk, then a tech would answer it.  I have had the vet answer and just say " Kim speaking" her name was Kim but we also had 2 other Kims there so she would have never admitted to being the vet on the phone but yet answered it to at least make sure it was not an emergency.

Janet and Callie...when I said the lady that lost the 4 dogs to parvo put the " fright" into me.....I say that because I was plain and simply not getting Gibby boosters until that happened....and it made me think maybe I don't feel quite that strong about it anymore....so will look into titers. I do understand that a vaccine wouldn't take care of a new strain.....heck, it didn't!

Janet, thanks for the links...I will go read them now.

 I would also wonder where they got the vaccines and/or who administered them. Vaccines need be kept cool and are also good for a certain period of time after being mixed.  If the vaccines were, say, bought at a feed store who left a shipment out too long before refrigerating, those vaccines wouldn't be effective. Or if the owner left it out too long or gave it improperly. Or, they may not have finished their series properly.

We've had several "vaccinated" dogs who have gotten Parvo who  either had a total of two puppy shots spaced several months apart or had no puppy vaccines and then just a single vaccine as an adult. A few years ago several dogs got Parvo whose owners got their vaccines at a local feed store. Obviously something wasn't stored correctly.

These are usually the cases in older dogs who come down with the disease.

I live in a very heavy Parvo area...in the warm months we see several positive tests each week. And due to our warm weather, we see it year round. I've never seen a case of a properly vaccinated adult dog with the disease.

grab01

I live in a very heavy Parvo area...in the warm months we see several positive tests each week. And due to our warm weather, we see it year round. I've never seen a case of a properly vaccinated adult dog with the disease.

BUT this is a different strain of the illness.

If it's that different, then no titer or vaccine you give will help.

I just got back Bean's titers. For parvo and distemper, at my clinic, it's $115. I don't find that an unreasonable amount to pay. Our blood tests are sent to Antech. There's also the option of ordering a case of Canine Vaccicheck tests, and keeping them yourself, for $240.

grab01

I've never seen a case of a properly vaccinated adult dog with the disease.

No matter where one gets their vaccines, it is a good idea to titer at least once after the puppy series (or after the 1-year-old shot?) to be sure that immunity has actually developed.

That would help to identify

(1) dogs that got ineffective vaccines (bad batch, storage issues, etc),
(2) dogs whose maternal antibodies lasted an unually long time, and
(3) dogs that simply do not respond to the vaccine.

I am not sure what can be done to help dogs that don't respond to the vaccine.