lick granulomas

    • Silver

    lick granulomas

    I know I’m new here, but I’ve been dealing with a “semi-serious” problem with my big girl for years.  I’m always looking for new ideas to try because nothing seems to work.
    My Gypsy (6yrs, 115 lbs, lab mix- we think) has lick granuloma.   She has been thru every test in the book, from allergies to thyroid and the problem has been determined as psychological.  I’m looking for anything we haven’t tried yet to treat the granulomas or to deter the problem.  Here is what we have tried:
    No fleas or other parasites.  She does have dry skin, but takes fish oil pills.  Flakes are gone but not the licking.
    She has drops from the vet that are anti-bacterial and “foul” tasting. These do tend to speed the healing if I can block her from licking with an ace bandage, sock, liquid skin; I’ve even used duct tape over gauze.  The moment I go to sleep off the bandage comes.  She goes into a complete panic in an Elizabethan collar (not that I would want her living in one).
    She has been on anti-depressants with no change.   We tried 3 anti-anxiety meds but either she slept constantly or there was little change in behavior.  I’ve tried bitter apple, Yuck, and one or two other sprays.  The Yuck she licked while I was spraying her leg.  Flavor?
    She will not play with the Buster Cube, Kong, or Kong Wobbler.  She will chew natural bone but not with much interest.  She is walked twice a day, with the evening walk being the longest.  I try to keep her out about an hour, but she is usually done after about 30 minutes (turns towards home).  She goes to the dog park on Saturdays and we do the 5k walk around the park.  Basically, she wants to lay on the couch and lick.
    We got Tazzy as a playmate and it worked for a while.  But she has lost interest in playing in the yard with Tazzy, preferring to lay on the porch.  Fortunately Tazzy has no problem entertaining herself (and anyone who can see the goof).
    I know I’ve got to be missing something, but I don’t know what.  Her only real motivation is food, but I don’t want her putting back on more weight.  She did slow down on the licking when she had food available at all times but she put on 20 lbs.  I’ve even seen her lick in her sleep.
    Anybody got any ideas?  I'll take treatments for the sores or a new thought to keep her from starting new spots. I've given up on the idea that this can be "cured", just hoping someone has some other experiences.

     

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    I'm so sorry to hear you're having to deal with this.  I've never had a dog with this condition but I've read a bit about it and attended a seminar about ten years ago with my previous Vet and they talked about it extensively.  As you've found, there's no real cure, since once it's entrenched behavior, any underlying physical cause is secondary to the psychological aspect.

    The only suggestion I have is to give the cone collar a try.  I know you said she freaks out about it but most dogs do for the first day or two.  Most adjust though and the idea is to stop the behavior long enough so that it's extinguished.  This could take months and I know the thought of having her wear the cone that long is a terrible one but it might be worth a try since you've tried drugs.  I think it would be important to never let her engage in the behavior if you decide to try this or you'll be starting over from square one each time she succeeds in licking herself.

    Have you thought about getting involved in some sort of training with her?  Even if it's just some daily trick work, it could help.  The mind is a funny organ and sometimes getting a dog involved mentally, in an activity that fully engages the brain, can help overcome OCD type behavior.

    Hopefully some others with personal experience dealing with this, will be along with some advice and ideas that might help.

     

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    I agree totally with Jackie about getting her more mentally engaged. 

    I knowy you've done exhaustive vet stuff -- but have you tried TCVM?  Traditional Chinese Veterinary Medicine -- this isn't weirdo stuff.  This is taught even at the U of Florida at Gainesville (both acupuncture and herbology).

    The reason I suggest this so strongly -- given that you have tried drugs and it's virtually impossible to get her to disengage this behavior, I'm going to suggest that it's more almost like a seizurey type of behavior.  You can disengage them for a moment and then ZOOM right back to it.  "driven" -- "almost not on this planet when licking" -- do those words apply?

    I've had some serious experience with dogs like this -- if you try to 'calm' them down you make a zombie who still licks.  But I would seriously tell you to try acupuncture/herbals.  We had a little old lady peke who came to live with us when she was 14 -- sweet but absolutely zoned off in another world most of the time except her behavior of choice was a weird almost repetitive series of head turns/neck craning and "air licking". 

    We got her on a couple of herbs and WOW -- there was a really sweet little dog under all that obsession.  In pretty short order we got rid of ALL the weird repetitive behaviors with no stress at all.  No drugs, no sedation.  Just a clear thinking sweet little old lady dog.  It took some tweaking -- but it was SO worth it.

    http://www.tcvm.com is the Chi Institute - it's a qualifying agency for TCVM.  If you want to email me I can give you some additional information.

    When a behavior like that becomes THAT entrenched and repetitive -- for me the telling phrase was that the dog does it IN THEIR SLEEP.  That's brain electricity/neural type of stuff.  It's not really as much habit ias it is obsession.  But it's "mindless" -- it's not really determination, right?  She just plain can't stop  and I doubt she's even thinking about it.

    Email me -- I'm happy to give you more information.  On the left hand side of that URL there is a "locator" -- but you'll need more info to pick a vet.  You don't just want to go to whomever is "close".  You need "good" and someone good with herbs.  the oriental herbs are far different than anything we have here -- but the results can be incredible. 

    • Silver

     Thanks.  I've used TCM for myself and hubby but didn't know that they were doing this for dogs yet.  I will be in touch. 

    I love my big girl and it just looks so painful.  I know the med from the vet must sting (she gave me a topical to keep the sores from getting infected).

    When I left for work this am, she was wearing cotton socks.  I know as soon as hubby's back is turned she'll pull them off and go right back to her current spot.

    Look forward to hearing from you and will let you know how things go.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Just curious but where are the granulomas? Is it just one foot or both that she licks?

    You mentioned she was tested for thyroid problems, right? Were the results normal? 115 lbs seems pretty high for a lab but maybe not if she's a mix of another breed. My lab was almost that heavy when we had her tested and she was severly hypothyroid and was having quite a few skins problems and infections.

    I feel for you and hope that you can figure out a way to deal with this. I know how nerve-wracking it can be.

    • Silver

    This it where the dog literally licks a nasty sore on their leg, just above the paw.  She will "rotate" legs unless I keep all four covered.  Right now the bad one is on the left front, right rear is healed.  When I manage to keep the left front bandaged, she'll move to another leg. 

    Thyroid was run 3 times over 4 years.  Always normal.  She's a little "pudgy", but yes she is mixed.  My vet would like her to loose about 8-10 lbs, but the more I cut the treats the more she licks.  We've been hovering at 115 for 2 years now.

    • Gold Top Dog
    It sounds like you've got a vet who's trying really hard to work with you, so that's good. When my lab was having so many allergy problems, she compusively licked her feet. It was so bad that I spent most of the night telling her "stop licking" and she started finding places to hide so I couldn't see or hear her Sad. As I said, I really feel for you and hope there's a way to resolve this.
    • Silver
    Thanks.  Yes, I know the "I'll hide over here so mom can see.  I have eliminated every table in our living room, and no longer have a clothe on the dinning room table.  She has also been changed to an open crate.  There is no place to hide from mom as long as I'm home!
    • Bronze

     I think I saw a 'soft' e-collar at Petco.  It was a cone but made out of stiffened fabric so it would be softer than the usual cone.  Maybe this would help..

    • Gold Top Dog

     Have you ever looked a dog leggs. I have no personal experience but I know lick granulomas is one of the conditions they use the product for.

    http://www.dogleggs.com/granuloma/

     

    I hope the link works. I always have trouble with them.