Deramaxx or Rimadyl - Is there a significant difference, other than price?

Not a huge difference -- BOTH are ***extremely*** hard on the liver and the kidneys, so if you give them for a prolonged period of time you will want to give milk thistle as well

Deramaxx is a newer drug and honestly a lot of dogs can't take it well at all (it can be really hard on the stomach as well - my sheltie got majorly sick from it).  Rimadyl is carprophen -- and was honestly developed for use in humans, but the side effects to the kidneys and liver were so severe that they wouldn't allow it to be approved for humans.  Deramaxx, if memory serves me, was hoped to be easier on the kidneys a bit.

I don't know you at all well, but I'll toss this out for whatever it's worth.  There are several things you can do to mitigate damage (like using the milk thistle) but also to augment the treatment and yet use *less* of the drugs.

If you know anyone with arthritis they can tell you that the more you "hurt" the more tense you become.  The more you tense up, the harder the joints rub on each other which then worsens the inflammation and breaks down the cartilage more and more.  So it's literally a never ending spiral that worsens itself. 

That's why you don't just take ONE ibuprophen (or in this case Rimadyl or Deramaxx) when it hurts.  It helps a bit, but it's taking stuff like this day after day where the maximum benefit occurs.  Because yesterdays reduction in inflammation then allows TOMORROW's pill to start there and reduce the inflammation *more* -- so day after day you should reduce the inflammation a whole lot over the course of a few weeks.

Then hopefully you can reduce the amount of NSAID to a "maintenance" dose. 

make sense so far?  (I've been an arthritis sufferer since I was a kid, trust me this is hard-earned experience talking)

So, if you take a relaxant along with the NSAID you reduce that stress of the tightening of the muscles because of pain.  Particularly at bedtime -- taking a relaxant of some sort really helps that NSAID work a whole lot better.

MOST pharmaceutical relaxants are habit-forming.  But this is again where an herb can really help.  Something like valerian root, or passion flower can be even better, will help relax those muscles so that the NSAID works *better*.

Valerian is pretty easy to find -- a health store is easiest, but even Walgreens and Wal-Mart usually carry valerian.  DO get capsules of the ground herb tho - stay away from pressed/formed caplets (typically the quality just is *not* as good and there's often less herb and more 'binding' agents I find). 

1-2 capsules twice a day of either of those herbs would be a good dose for a border collie. 

But the milk thistle will **really** help keep you out of trouble with the liver problems. 

If you want to holler at me email there are a *lot* of other things you can do that can really help that.  Stuff like Knox NutraJoint (now made by Osteo Bi-Flex) can actually help rebuild some of the cartilage that has been lost and it's not at all expensive.  Essential oils like peppermint or wintergreen (even that green alcohol you see at the pharmacy??) can really help as a massage rub to take a whole lot of the soreness out.  The actual essential oils can make a big difference in reducing arthritic inflammation.  Just dribbling the oil on the inflamed spot can help *tons* without having to give anything oral. 

If you want to email me I can send you stuff I've written out about arthritis.  There's no magic bullet that just "fixes" it but there are a lot of smaller things you can do that relieve a lot of pain and aren't expensive.

 Welcome to the forum; Callie's right about both of these medications being hard on the liver and kidneys. Did your vet do blood work before prescribing the medicine to check her liver and kidney values? As Callie said, there are other ways to relieve pain from arthritis. My dog is 12 and a half and I use this joint supplement;     Nutramax Laboratories, Inc.

  

Thanks very much for taking the time to provide such a detailed and comprehensive reply to my inquiry. Based on the information that you have provided; I think that I'd be wise to stay with the Deramaxx that my Vet prescribed, in spite of its being a lot more expensive than Rimadyl.                       

I had never even heard of Milk Thistle until reading your reply, but it certainly seems like it could be very beneficial for the liver, in combating the possible negative effects associated with using Deramaxx. You mentioned dosages for Valerian, but didn't for Milk Thistle. My dog is fairly large for a Border Collie (not over weight - just big, 48 -50 lbs.). What would be a reasonable amount of Milk thistle to give her, daily?

Like yourself; I also suffer from arthritis, so I can relate to everything that you mentioned. I've tried several of the highly touted arthritis medications, but stopped doing so, as I didn't notice any improvements in pain reduction or mobility, by using them; plus the possible side effects didn't seem to justify continuing to use them. Dealing with "lower back and shoulder pain" seemed like a wiser move than trying to cope with potentially fatal heart or liver problems!

Thanks again for your most informative reply. It is genuinely appreciated.

Bob W

 Thanks very much for your input.

I don't know it my Vet took blood for liver and kidney value tests.

My dog was dropped off at the Vet's, and boarded, as I had to go out of town of two days, and while she was boarded there, she received her annual physical and shots.(I normally take her for this type of Vet visit.) When she was picked up: I never thought to ask about blood tests, as everything was fine with her, other than the arthritis problem. The prescribed arthritis medication (Deramaxx) is the first medication of that type, that any of the dogs that I have owned, have ever taken, and I was not familiar with its possible side effects.

I will certainly ask my Vet about blood tests now though, thanks to your input.

Thanks again,

Bob W

The only thing I can add to all of this good info is if you are going to give Rimadyl give with food.  I'm not sure about Deramaxx but it can be very hard on the stomach over time.  I've heard Rimadyl can cause stomach problems like bleeding over time.  All that said, my dog has a prescription for Rimadyl that I've used as needed for arthritis pain and pain from Lyme disease.  I'm not sure what I'd go with for daily use though. 

Bob W

I had never even heard of Milk Thistle until reading your reply, but it certainly seems like it could be very beneficial for the liver, in combating the possible negative effects associated with using Deramaxx. You mentioned dosages for Valerian, but didn't for Milk Thistle.

You can get milk thistle in capsules in any health store but it tends to be a tad pricey (usually about $18 - $20 for 60 caps for a decent quality).  BUT, you can buy the powder in bulk for a fraction of that.  There are lots of places to get it online -- I usually use http://www.leavesandroots.com -- go to "m" and you want the milk thistle powder (not the whole seed - altho if you have a coffee grinder you can surely grind your own).  But you can get a whole *pound* of milk thistle powder for about $12.70 

It takes about an oz of powder to make 42-45 capsules.  Now -- comparing that to the price I said above that means you'll get something like $200 worth of capsules worth of milk thistle for $12.70.  AND the dogs digest it better without the capsules!!  *smile*

You can just sprinkle it on the food (you can add a bit of meat juice, yogurt or whatever suits you to make it 'wet' if you use kibble).  But I'd be adding about 1/2 teas. (which is about 2 capsules) to each meal of the milk thistle.

If you use the Knox NutraJoint about a generous 1/2 scoop is a good dose for a dog that size.  The thing about the NutraJoint is that you have to use it for like 2-3 months before you *see* effects.  It's NOT a pain med -- it's literally going to help the body rebuild cartilage and that takes a while.  If you decide to try it yourself, I can tell you it has helped *me* more than any other single thing.  10 years ago I was walking with two canes everywhere I went.  A friend suggested I try the NutraJoint and wow -- it helped SO much.  I still have my share of problems but I stay ambulatory and I'm actually in far less pain than 10 years ago which is an accomplishment.  I just put the scoop of stuff in my coffee in the morning.  The last mouthful is a tad gritty, but I figure that's a small enough price to pay.  And the dogs tend to kinda like it (it tastes just a wee bit milky).  The Knox is taken just once a day.

btw Welcome!!

Hi.  I am responding to a pretty old post but it had such great info and I wanted to pick your brain a little more about a few things.  My brother's 10 year old 164 lb Newfie was recently re-homed to me and he is quite a mess.  Obviously his hips are "worn" which has resulted in issues throughout his body. His excess weight has not helped and as I feed all my animals a raw diet I have switched him over and it's been helpful in getting his weight down (8 pounds so far, 15 to go).   We're seeing an awesome rehab vet for accupuncture and laser treatments along with some rehab exercises.  I started him on Dasequin &  Duralactin as soon as I got him.  He was also diagnosed with Hypothyroidism and we've gotten those levels normalized and have also weaned him off of a low dose Prednisone (adrenals are functioning well).  He was on a high dose of Tramadol while weaning him off the pred but was a complete zombie and at my rehab vet's suggestion I started him on Traumeel with some positive results.  But we want to now incorporate an NSAID too so are trying meloxicam.  I have also started the valerian at your suggestion, 3 capsules 2x a day is what I started with, no clue if that is the right dose.

With the NSAID I also want to start him on Milk Thistle.  What dose for my giant boy?  And if I wanted to try the OsteoBiFlex should I continue the Dasequin & Duralactin along with the Knox temporarily or just use the Knox and again, what dose?.  I was wondering about side effects with the Knox and which product do you use?  There are a few options to select from. 

 Thanks again for all the awesome info.  I have alot going on with him but definitely seeing some improvement.  I'm committed to give him the best shot at a good quality of life for whatever time he has left.

SFlaSue

We're seeing an awesome rehab vet for accupuncture and laser treatments along with some rehab exercises.  I started him on Dasequin &  Duralactin as soon as I got him.  He was also diagnosed with Hypothyroidism and we've gotten those levels normalized and have also weaned him off of a low dose Prednisone (adrenals are functioning well).  He was on a high dose of Tramadol while weaning him off the pred but was a complete zombie and at my rehab vet's suggestion I started him on Traumeel with some positive results.  But we want to now incorporate an NSAID too so are trying meloxicam.  I have also started the valerian at your suggestion, 3 capsules 2x a day is what I started with, no clue if that is the right dose.

What you're doing is GREAT. Will your holistic vet do acqupuncture with Traumeel?? I would add Zeel to that as well (it's specifically for arthritis where Traumeel is anything "trauma";). Acquapuncture with Traumeel and some B-12 can really really help arthritis pain (I get that done on ME!)

Any NSAID is tough on the liver -- milk thistle is not a "strong" herb -- so use lots. I would tell you to get it in bulk (not capsules, just the bulk herb in powder -- FAR cheaper, but if you can find a really high quality source it's the best you can do. http://www.leavesandroots.com is in Orlando -- and she carries a SUPERB quality of CO (certified organic) milk thistle - and they're fast. $20 for a whole pound of the ground herb. I'd say to do at least 1 1/2 teas. twice a day.

I would tell you, since the NSAID is going to be SO hard on the liver -- use valerian for a while, and then use passionflower for a while. It's another nervine herb but it's a tad less stress on the liver. Valerian is ok -- and probably the best to start with. 3 capsules twice a day (morning and bedtime) -- valerian is more like a tonic -- "more" isn't stronger, it just enables it to last a bit longer in the body which you will need.

Use the NutraJoint **in addition** to everything else. It's not a pain med and it's not a 'hydrator' -- it's simply going to help the body repair the cartilage and re-grow some. So take it in addition. For a Newfie that big I would say a scoop once a day. If you look on http://www.drugstore.com you can get it on there (just the plain one -- you don't need anything else in it) -- get two cannisters and you'll get free shipping. A cannister will last you about a month.

I would also tell you to use an essential oil blend topically -- with such a heavy coated dog, get a bottle of "green alcohol" in Publix (I'm in Orlando!! LOL) -- right in the drug aisle. Add maybe 1/2 oz of either wintergreen or peppermint oil TO that bottle of alcohol (essential oils -- not food flavorings -- Whole Foods will carry them, as should most any health store). But the alcohol mixes well with it and will spread the oil more easily on the skin -- IF IF IF You can massage this dog that will rock!! But if the dog really doesn't want to be messed with, use a squirt nozzle (like a travel squirt bottle or an empty shampoo bottle) and squirt the alcohol on the SKIN (just part the coat in a few places) and that will help spread it. The "green" alcohol is actually just cheap rubbing alcohol with a tiny bit of wintergreen in it. Both wintergreen and peppermint work incredibly well -- if the dog will let you, toss a loose sheet over them at night (the oils will make them feel cold)

SFlaSue

I was wondering about side effects with the Knox and which product do you use?  There are a few options to select from. 

zero side effects -- it takes about 3 months to really work (because the body has to **re-build** cartilage). It's not a painkiller -- mostly it's bovine cartilage and calcium with a few trace minerals. glucosamine/chondroitin are only going to work if there IS still cartilage there (they simply plump up the cartilage so it cushions better). Chondroitin is actually a very minor anti-inflammatory.

 You will also want to investigate Adequan.  This is an injectable form of glucosamine and chondroitin (and a few other things).  I've had 2 of my bichons on it, both with amazing results.

 There is a 'loading' period, 2 shots per week for 4 weeks.  After that, you go to a maintenance dose, which for most dogs is once a month.   I was able to give the shot to my RB Marlin at home; I was used to giving my Dad his insulin shots for his diabetes, so a Vet Tech just taught me the proper area to give the shot in the hind quarters, and miss the nerve.  Marlin had hip dysplasia.  My current male, Willy, has major arthritis in both hips and both knees (we had x rays of those and his spine).  I can't give Willy his shots at home as he bites, but the Vet Tech can give the shot, no need for a Vet, so the monthly fee is quite a bit less.  It takes 2 Techs plus me to get Willy's shot in him, I am feeding him hot dog treats non stop, ha haaa.

 If you go this route, I also found I could get a script from my vet, and buy the vial of Adequan online from Drs Foster & Smith, at quite a savings.  I take my vial in with Willy, and the Vet Tech gives him the shot, with 'my' meds.  Again, this is a big savings.

Thanks SO much for all the time you spent responding to me.  This info is incredibly valuable for our dogs as they age.  Unfortunately my big boy had a crisis this past week and I had to help him pass.  Such a heartbreak but I know his life was improved the very short time I had him and I look forward to seeing him at the Rainbow Bridge.  The information I got from your original post was a huge help, I think the valerian definitely helped him sleep more soundly and he seemed more comfortable.  I can't thank you enough for that.  I have kept a copy of this post and will refer to it often as my other 3 dogs age.  I have already forwarded it to a friend with an aging senior girl and will pass it on innumerable times I'm sure in the coming months/years.  I'll be sure to refer to this community as future challenges and situations arise.  Thanks again and be well!  Sue

I'm so sorry you lost him -- but you gave him a soft place to land and **caring** -- and he loved you for it!!