Questions About Acupuncture

    • Gold Top Dog

    Questions About Acupuncture

     Jessie's going to a TCVM vet on Tuesday for treatment for what is likely to be chronic bronchitis. It's been 19 days since the samples were taken from her lungs and so far no bacteria has been cultured so it's likely that she has chronic bronchitis and the usual treatment is steroids. Even if she has a bacterial infection, Dr. W (the holistic vet) said acupuncture can reduce the inflammation in her lungs and help her cough. It's likely he will also prescribe some herbs. Dr. M, the internist we've been seeing at Purdue, is on board with the idea.

     So, for those of you with dogs that have had acupuncture; what can I expect? Will she feel the needles and will it hurt? How long do the treatments usually last? I'm excited and anxious for her to start treatment and finally get some relief from this cough.

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    Pirate tends to go either way when he gets acupuncture - some days he'll be really fussy while she's putting the needles in, and some days he won't. He's almost always fussy if I have to take an afternoon appointment...I think because there is more commotion in the office, phone is ringing, other patients in and out, that kind of thing. I usually try to get the first appointment of the day because it's nice and quiet, and they put us in the room that he 'likes'. Jessie might be different though, Pirate is a little strange about being handled.

    The appointment usually takes an hour or so. She usually comes in and sits with us for a little while, asks about any changes/updates, and then puts his needles in and leaves us be for 30 minutes or so. I usually bring a book, but if I forget it, I'll put my head down near Pirate while he snoozes. When he's behaving, he almost always snoozes the whole time.

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    Bevo's reaction varies according to the location of the needles.  He doesn't respond at all when our vet places the needles in his head, neck, shoulders, back, hips, or thighs.  He does give her stink eye, & sighs loudly when she places the ones in his elbows, carpus, & where his dewclaws used to be. 

    He is hooked up to electrodes for the first 30 minutes.  THen they are disconnected, & he hangs out for another 15 with needles still in. 

    Time of day plays a big role in how he behaves.  I try to avoid morning appointments because he's usually more bouncy, excitable, & wanting to say hello to everyone in the office at that time.  His bounciness is made worse by the fact that he can't be handled with a collar because of neck issues & he can't wear his harness during accupuncture because it is in the way of the needle placement.  So I'm trying to keep his spastic butt still while he nekkid. Indifferent

    When he goes in the afternoon, he is generally calmer.  He does his silly "hi, so good to see you again" number, & then he settles in.  He usually lays down & snoozes during most of an afternoon appointment.

    He is great when he is disconnected from the electrodes.  He just lays there like he has good sense.  When she pulls the needles, he acts like an idiot.  He gets spastic & excited, and he tries to play.  He'll spin & sometimes, reach around to help pull a needle or two.  Our vet refuses to let me stop him during this part of our visit.  She says that she'd prefer work with him, "while he's being him.self" 

    Personally, I'd prefer not work with a spastic idiot but he's happy, & she's happy, so I sit there & let them play their silly game.

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     Emma hates vets, and she hates needles. Is that a fair enough evaluation? She's just... like that.

     

    Another of our vets does laser treatments. Much easier, but not *quite* as effective. Still good, for hip and back pain. Acupuncture rocks. If you've never had it, and Jessie's never had it, you'll be shocked how quickly you see a difference. Bevo has it right. They feel better *immediately*

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    Ok from me you get the dual scenario -- because I both have dogs who get acupuncture AND *I* do as well.

    Amanda's description of Bevo is right on location wise.  The very first needle is usually at the top of the skull -- it's a "chill out" Point -- do that one on me and I almost can't drive home!

     Now if you read the above you will see -- the reaction is individual -- BUT some dogs sleep and some dogs don't.  The experience of the person doing the needling and their technique can be a big deal. 

    If you go to the videos section I posted a video of Billy actually being needled.  And you're welcome to give the URL of that to the vet you're going to see.  If they've seen Dr. Xie ("shay";) do his lecture on anemia then they've SEEN Billy because apparently Xie uses Billy as a case study in his lecture. 

     Now 99% of needles don't hurt -- in fact, acupuncture needles are SO thin that they usually use a little tiny straw/tube literally so the needle doesn't 'bend' when inserted because they are SO thin it can be hard to get thru the skin!!  In fact, when Dr. D needles Kee Shu she actually uses needles SO fine you can tie a knot in them - no joke!

    It can be like a tattoo -- the closer to bone the more it may hurt.   I've had needles most everywhere -- and 99% of the time you never feel them - you feel the little tap against the straw on skin -- but not the needle itself.  I've even hand needles in my hands and face.

    It is FAR better *NOT* to move.  A needle may not hurt when it enters, but it CAN if you move around.  That's why you typically hold the dog -- or a tech will. 

    ****ASK SPECIFICALLY**** about acupressure points YOU can use at home.  There is  one point just inside the top of the breastbone that will help push the 'qi" (say 'chee';) down into the body.  That's one I use all the time on me (I have asthma) and I've used it on dogs dozens of times.

    Time of Day -- hmm that's an interesting point.  When *I* get acupuncture, I seriously have to get it done LATE in the day Last thing -- simply because it relaxes me SO seriously that I am worthless for the rest of the day. 

    Some dogs will simply fall asleep -- some don't.  Some never DO relax.  Muffin the Intrepid used to go COMPLETELY to sleep.  You'd have to shake him to wake him up to go home.  Foxy would "stand" but never lie down.  But then, the mostlie sheltie almost never slept -- that was his nature.

    Billy never goes to sleep -- he's an active one.  But he gets a ton of needles and I really try to keep him in one spot.  He also likes to be a "shaker" -- and that will flip all the needles out so you DO try to keep them in one spot.

    Kee Shu will go flat to sleep -- in fact, if she's snoozing getting needles won't even wake her up.

    Much depends on that particular vet, their style and what they do.  My vet, Dr. DiNatale, teaches all over the US.  Megan's vet, Dr. Faisano, also teaches at the Institute (she' in Dr. D's practice). 

    Take some treats -- it really DOES make it easier.  Take whatever you use -- shoot, I've taken everything from bits of kibble to Gerber Graduates Apple pieces (that's what I took tonight!) to bits of steak.  The vet will appreciate your thoughtfulness and will appreciate your efforts to ensure that  things go well.

    If there is a rug or blanket that Jessie is particularly fond of -- take it.  Whatever makes her comfortable can help. 

    Acupuncture can rock for asthma -- been there done that!

    Usually the treatments last somewhere near an hour.  However, your initial visit will usually be LONG -- plan on 90 minutes or 2 hours.  Write out everything Jessie is currently on -- and ask your vet to send over test results from bloodwork and any tests that have recently been run.  It will be appreciated.

    Holler if I can help -- seriously.  Callie

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      Thanks to all of you for your insight. Jessie has always been very calm and cooperative at the vet so I'm not anticipating any problems. When Matt took the staples out of her face at Purdue (they were used to hold the oxygen lines in place), she didn't flinch. Still, now that I know the needles can hurt, I won't be surprised if she whines a little. That's the extent of her protests and that's only if something is fairly painful.

      

     

    calliecritturs
    Write out everything Jessie is currently on -- and ask your vet to send over test results from bloodwork and any tests that have recently been run.

      I've already done that; Dr. Wittke asked for blood work. He seems to be very concerned and I believe he'll be very good to work with. Callie, he asked what the protein source of her cooked diet is; it's turkey. He said that was good; is it a hot or cold food? Thanks for the advice about keeping her still. I always bring treats when she goes to the vet (Dr. Shutes, her regular vet, asked me to bring them for her allergy shots). But I'll bring more for this. I remember when you told Chelsea about the acupressure point to suppress Cherokee's cough, but the reason Jessie coughs is because of the mucus and inflammation in her lungs. I don't know if he'll want me to use an acupressure point to suppress her cough since she's coughing up mucus, but I'll ask. The purpose of these visits will be to help her lungs heal. The herbs he prescribes may be more important than the acupuncture; I'm very curious to see how he combines the two treatments. I wouldn't know about TCVM practitioners if it wasn't for you Callie and she would have been put on steroids; you rock.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

      Jessie's treatment went very well; the only needles she seemed to notice when the vet was putting them in her were a few on her rear legs. All of your input was really helpful; I brought treats and was prepared for a long visit; it took about 90 minutes altogether. The needles were in her for about an hour. She was relaxed at first, then was panting and wanted to move around a little, then quiet again about the last ten minutes. I haven't noticed any change in her coughing yet but didn't expect to; this is different than treating arthritis or seizures so I thought it may take longer for her to respond. I didn't ask him how many treatments he thinks she will need but I'll ask him when she goes back again next week. After examining her, she said she's an earth dog. I read some literature while she was being treated and she does have a lot of the personality characteristics of an earth dog. She's always had a sensitive stomach and I read that earth dogs are prone to gastrointestinal problems. I like this vet; he was very gentle with her and answered all my questions.

     Amanda, I love your vet's attitude with Bevo; no wonder he's happy when he goes there. Have any of your vets classified your dogs according to the five elements?

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    jessies_mom
    Have any of your vets classified your dogs according to the five elements?

    I'm pretty sure Dr. Xie said Pirate was a fire/wood dog -- on the borderline of both. Typical Pirate, LOL.

    I'm glad it went OK for Jessie. Please give her a gentle hug from me.

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    Bevo is a fire dog.

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    rotlm behind off -- the dogs and ME .. my HUSBAND ... LOL (me fire - david metal)

    Megan ... soon she'll be talking about 'Hot" meats and "cooling" foods and ... *sigh* it's a another whole vocabulary LOL

    Then there's the day (it happens SUPER rarely) when a tiny little bit of blood may come out when they remove a needle -- and you REALLY know you're into TCVM when you exclaim "OH GOOD -- that released some **heat**!!!!!"

    for the uninitiate -- remember back in the 1700 - 1800's it was a favorite of doctors to 'bleed' patients??

    That has it's **roots** in Chinese medicine but it was completely abused and misused -- the Chinese noticed that when a HEALTHY body lost a **tiny** bit of blood it simulated the body's healing processes.  Like -- we're talking less than a couple of drops.  In a HEALTHY body.  But in those times they took that "old" medicine and figured more was better so they would deliberately bleed sick patients to hopefully rid the body of "bad humors" (misundrestanding what bacteria, etc. played in the role of medicine). 

    It's actually pretty cool stuff. 

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    calliecritturs
    Megan ... soon she'll be talking about 'Hot" meats and "cooling" foods and ... *sigh* it's a another whole vocabulary LOL

     

       You mean like beef being a "hot"meat? Wink The vet lent a book to me to read called " Four Paws Five  Directions". It has information in it about using different foods to treat different conditions as well as foods to avoid. Today, he showed me acupressure points for her bronchitis that I can do at home between treatments as well as how to massage around her neck to help the laryngeal paralysis. I'm becoming more optimistic that the acupuncture will help her; he certainly believes it can.

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    Chicken more so than beef -- in fact I don't even give mine chicken at all any more.

    Cheryl Schwartz, DVM who wrote "Four Paws Five Directions" is awesome.  She's one of the instructors for the Chi Institute and is absolutely awesome.  Don't try to read it cover to cover -- read what interests you ... and then go back and re-read.  Cool book.

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    Yeah, beef is cool! Big, slow animal = cool. Fiesty little thing like a chicken, always moving and running around = hot.

    4 Paws is a cool book, a little overwhelming at first though! I've only read (and reread) the heart and liver heat sections.

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    calliecritturs
    Chicken more so than beef -- in fact I don't even give mine chicken at all any more.

     

      Yeah, I misspoke about beef; it's more of a neutral food. I honestly don't know what to think about warm, cool, and neutral foods, and about the flow of qi, as well as yin and yang, etc.

    calliecritturs
    Cheryl Schwartz, DVM who wrote "Four Paws Five Directions" is awesome.  She's one of the instructors for the Chi Institute and is absolutely awesomeDon't try to read it cover to cover -- read what interests you ... and then go back and re-read.  Cool book.

     It's well written; she's a very good author. It's a long book and I probably won't have time to read all of it before our next visit.