Do you support BSL?

NO!!!  Labeling an entire breed is as stupid as labeling an entire race of people. 

Arrgh I know I will catch some heat for this...

Yes, but in a Modified sense.

Explanation: I live in an area with very few laws on animals.  Only two no kill shelters within about 100 miles of my home.  And a ton of morons breeding dogs from the distasteful idiot who continually has holiday litters ( for ever holiday) of tiny mixes and toy breeds which she sells from 6 weeks up at the side of the road , she has a card table, a beach umbrella a lawn chair and then assorted containment devices for the puppies. At Christmas she or a family member set's up directly across form the outlet mall, literally holding  puppies up to people driving by grinning like fools. They are getting 50.00 to 800.00 per puppy, no application no guarantee all impulse sales ...it makes me ill. When the police are called with complaints we all find out as long as she has the permission of the property owner and pays taxes their hands are tied...

Swap meet Pit bulls make my blood run ice cold, I have listened to them tell one buyer how sweet they are  and the next what killers the parents are... ?? There is NOTHING to protect these poor pups and the breeding stock that is popping them out. I personally want to believe it is nurture over nature , but I have doubts when I know there are some show lines highly prized in even my own beloved breed that are known for their dog aggression,  stubborness

Ideally BSL would affect the public in the following manner, any  breeder of the so called dangerous breeds who has records and titles showing the dog has been Temperament Tested, has a CGC, Is Trained either in basic obedience or a similar format,  And yes I prefer Championed and health tested, microchipped with full records of placement or sales... would be able to obtain a license to breed and sell these dogs. That would allow law enforcement to legally seize any unaltered dogs after a specific age who are owned by the idiots who could care less how much damage they pile on a breed.  Owners who buy a dog would be on record understanding and agreeing to the legal obilgation to house, train and maintain the animal.  No more tying them out, no shelter and encouraging aggressive behavior in hopes of a "Guard Dog".

This is very important so please even the ones reading who think I hate your dogs stick with me a bit....  With strong dog laws on the books the dog owners in our community who are caring and responsible would be able to demand the city, county etc ENFORCE the laws. As it is right now the economy sucks every where , try convincing "City Hall" they need to maintain more than a 5 person Dog Warden Staff for  the second largest county in the STATE.  It is nearly impossible if you aren't very wealthy to get the heat applied that will protect animals from people who regard them as property in the lowest sense. It is not possible IMHO to get a simple but strong dog law on the books any more. 

I understand the ability to research and tweak that research is a given. But here are some basic numbers That I saw recently, that make me wonder about the God Given "right" for just any one to own and or breed a dog who has a proven track record as a breed of serious injury or death.

Provided by the Meritt Clifton Serious Injuries and Deaths REPORTED ( I was bitten breaking up a dog fight when we were evacuating for Hurricane Ike and no I did not report it so I understand the probability that you never get your own animal in trouble)

From 9-1982 to 11-2006

Pit Bulls had 1110 attacks reported with 104 deaths.

Rotties           409 attacks                      58deaths

Wolf Hybred      71attacks                       18deaths

GSD                 63attacks                       38deaths

Chow                40attacks                       16deaths

Akita                48attacks                          1death

Boxer              31attacks                           2deaths

Bull Mastiff      30attacks                           6deaths 

Total Reported Attacks 2208

Total DEATHS               243

And sadly Pits account for 50% of these numbers.

My breed is not far from being on a dangerous dog list. In fact we are on some in Europe.  I do not want to see any breed erradicated. But there are some people who should NEVER be owners let alone breeders.  The dogs can't protect themselves.  We know  "Animal Rights" groups are not going to protect our breeds and the passion we feel for them.  If we do not accept that we need to put up or shut up then we deserve what is going to handle to our beloved dogs.

How many of you with a "Dangerous Dog"  have actually taken classes, worked them to title of any type and encourage the testing to show what resposible owners and breeders should be doing?  We have.    And we thank and praise all others who do so when we see them at shows or tests.  They appreciate knowing their efforts and their dogs are noticed and thought well of....

Please don't think I hate any breed, but there are some owners and breeders..... sigh you know the old bumper sticker " Stupid People shouldn't breed"

Bonita of Bwana

Have you read the book "Dogs bite but balloons and slippers are more dangerous".  Might be something you want to pick up next time you are at a show and Dogwise has a booth.  Very interesting and makes me doubt many statistics quoted concerning dog bites. But either way the statistics don't change my mind because if you somehow eliminated all the so called dangerous breeds, stupid people would breed new ones.

 I understand where you are coming from but............. The so called dangerous breeds are no more dangerous than my 65lb Lab mix could be in the wrong scenario.  Or my Shepherd mix or even my JRT (he could do some serious damage to a child). As you said, it's all about the owner not the breed of dog.  OT but Etosha rescue is about 30 minutes from me, maybe I'll pay her a visit sometime.  I'm afraid to because I may come home with a new dog. LOL

Jackie I am glad you can see what I am trying to say. I do agree that a mix is every bit as potentially problematic as a purebred. IT isn't about the papers, we all agree with that.

The problem with statistics, as we both I think agree is how they can be interpreted.  Unfortunately that is why I used only this particular set of numbers. IT is  simple math.  I believe the only possible skewing of the realities is the probability that there were indeed mixes in the identified breeds. ( I had asked for clarification on that but they seemed positive these were purebred dogs.)  If You added up the minority kids in my grand kid's Kindergarten and First grade class rooms you would find it odd that at least two of the Hispanic kids are a red head and blonde, and thoes are my two!!  Sort of blows the clean perception that what you read is exactly what you have....

My biggest problem is truly local. Trying to convince retirees that they need to kick in towards education is like pulling teeth! Any tax increase is unexceptable. The local shelters are very much Kill Shelters. There are no stays for dogs unless they are expecting and close to term. They then try to find fosters for the pups and as soon as they are weaned momma is toast . It is enough to make me physically ill. I am not allowed in the shelters any more by family declaration.  When I get donations together I call and they meet me at the gate. I off load the blankets, toys, food etc and they thank me. I drive away crying. It is not a healthy thing. But it is caused by idiots who feel they have to have an intact male or let the kids see just one litter then figure it is too expensive to alter.  I have paid for 6-10 "alterations" a year since moving here and if the owner is or  has someone on medicare or medicaid it is only 25. - 40.00 !! Yet they still allow the sorry, mangy things to live on a chain in the yard and get nailed. One woman actually said "but she was on a chain in my yard !!"    Yeah but you don't have a fence you MORON!   arrrrgh that is why she is knocked up every heat...

If we could arm wrestle common sense and decency into folks there is no way I would ever want additional laws. But I am the one who had the pit come over the 6 ' privacy fence into my yard and go after a younger pup found there. It took my 8 year old to stop him and it ended very ugly. He was another dog on a chain in the unfenced yard case. My neighborhood is pretty nice but this was a person who never admited to having the dog to the landlord.  So the landlord claimed ignorance and the folks were gone within the week.  sadly it will take a law to educate the idiots I have to deal with...

And as for the Etosha , have you checked out her web site?? she is alwsy looking for volunteers to just help love on the babies and help with the computer work etc. Bonney will not put down a healthy dog that has any chance of living a decent life.  She has told many of us , Have it brought here, I will make room! I got the sweetest note from her thanking us for the small fund raisier with Santa. It will help the RRs and a Beagle who's owner is very ill and who's family and breeder will not help out... very cool lady.

Bonita of Bwana

No!!! Ban stupid people, not dogs.

I understand Pitties have the highest dog bites.....but could you look at the type of people that own them?!?!?! Seriously, all these 'thugs' and 'gangstas' what the 'cool' dog, i.e. Pit Bulls. 20 years ago it was Rotties and Dobies. It's stupid people getting over-bred dogs.

Most of those Pittie bites were from dogs on chains. If I spent my whole life on a 35lb++ chain, I'd be wanting to bite someone too(and, possibley being used for fighting).

I can understand why it would be useful, but there are plenty of Pit's, Dobies, Rotties, ect, that are owned by good, caring, loving families that aree effected by BSL too.

No, I absolutely, without a doubt, do not support BSL in any way, shape, or form. 

I own a "dangerous breed" and I would hate to see my breed legislated because of a few stupid owners, & the public's fear of what the dog *might* do.

I have always wondered why BSL affects large breed dogs, & not small breeds.  I would love to see a comparison between the number of Doberman bites in a year & the number of Dachshund bites in a year.  I would bet that the Dachshund number would be higher...

BEVOLASVEGAS

 I would love to see a comparison between the number of Doberman bites in a year & the number of Dachshund bites in a year.  I would bet that the Dachshund number would be higher...

Because little dogs are 'cute' and 'they cant hurt you'.

That, and, all the politican's wife's have the little dogs or small-medium sized dogs, and, you know who wears the pants in that...........

Sorrry for getting OT

JackieG

Have you read the book "Dogs bite but balloons and slippers are more dangerous".  Might be something you want to pick up next time you are at a show and Dogwise has a booth.  Very interesting and makes me doubt many statistics quoted concerning dog bites.

 Good suggestion. Really considering how very many dogs there are in the US, there are surprisingly few fatal dog attacks. Humans are far more dangerous to each other than dogs are to us.

 And no I don't support BSL, even with the "for their own good" arguement that Bonita presents. I will not support AR minded legislation on what sort of dogs I can own or how I choose to breed them. I do see a very real possibility that certain breeds will become extinct in my lifetime due to BSL in some cases and breeders of all breeds being made into criminals through a variety of other restrictive laws (limit laws, MSN laws, high fees for owning intact animals, "responsible breeding legislation";) in other cases.

misstrouble

No!!! Ban stupid people, not dogsI understand Pitties have the highest dog bites.....but could you look at the type of people that own them?!?!?! Seriously, all these 'thugs' and 'gangstas' what the 'cool' dog, i.e. Pit Bulls. 20 years ago it was Rotties and Dobies. It's stupid people getting over-bred dogs.

Please re read my reasons for wanting modified BSL....sigh   seriously it is NOT the owners..it is the Idiot Breeders who are not placing and keeping track of the dogs and their get !!! 

I have HIGH punitive clauses in my contracts and will not hesitate to go after any one breeding one of my pups in an ignorant fashion!   If I can get 50.00+ for a pup pf questionable breeding why the heck would I put out several thousand dollars for a pair to breed from then prove them in the rings and Test the Bejeebers out of them???   My breed makes a pitty's bite look like a toy breed. We have waaay more PSI in the bite and our dogs do not have that ( I know it isn't a fact) Locking bite,  My breed ducks in and out with speed and razor sharp slashing attitude, they do significant damage with less body contact.

I follow my breedings like a tick in the summer. You are not shaking me off easily.  There are some dogs out there with my kennel name who have zero to do with my line. sigh Some one somewhere thought Tarzan had a clue just like the Hubs.  People breeding and selling their dog thru a swap meet, wal mart parking lot or newspaper ad are not doing this breed justice!!  Again Re Read my original Post!!   Test , Train and show your dog. Make sure they can pass the Temprament Test, Get them a CGC teach them Basic Obedience THEN tell me it is an unfair world.

After an Idiot Breeder sloppily places a puppy with a "thug" , "Gangsta" or this is my term ..redneck, inbred moron they have done more than half the damage to begin with !! Micheal Vick was not getting his dog from Show Stock. He got them from other ignorant Pitty fighting morons.  Some owner may pay for a decent puppy , then turns around and savess a few bucks by never testing or training that animal There are NO laws requiring that dog be handled carefully and PULLLLEEEEESE as a retired RN I have seen dog attacks on kids and even older folks who did NADA, SQUAT, ZERO to antagonize that dog.......  I clearly remember a mom discussing the nearly deadly mauling of her small child when the kid wandered close to the new family" pet" a slightly older dog who they broght home and chained in the back yard...that was on day 3 of having the sweet Pit Bull who would be protecting the family when DH was out of town. They had really searched the swap meets and ads looking for a odg they could afford who would be deadly with a stranger. Mom ducked in to answer the phone or grab a smoke and heard the mauling in progress , she threw her body over her child and only had the mauling transfered.  A neighbor driving by saw what was going on and thankfully had a gun,  since the Tire Iron did nothing to stop the dog.    This was less than an hour from my home. The nearest ( regular) mall is over an hour !!  This was this year and it was only ONE of Many Pitty attacks in my part of the world.

Had there  been laws  not allowing the chaining of a dog outside maybe, just maybe this could have been prevented?  But As I said in my OP Modified BSL are not availble let alone decent dog laws!!

There are menay parts of the country where dog laws are still so lax they may as well be nonexisitant.

My DD and the SIL were unable to get home owners on their new house as long as they had a Pit bull and seriously Raven was one of the sweetest creatures I have ever met.  But she was decently bred and trained. They were able to place her but that was a lucky lottery ticket in it's self.

As a whole our country ruins breeds by trying to make a buck. You want 101 dalmations spots?? Hey why stand in line for a well bred dog? My neighbor bred the heck out of thiers and each litter was more aggressive and naaaaaaaasty than the one before. (I was raised with a spotted sinling that trave;ed the country with us.)  want a Pocket puppy, just let the area BYBs know what you will pay for, Chi, Chipoo, Maltahuahua ChiTzu  Hey they are happy to oblige and as long as there is No legislation in effect to prevent these morons they will make "pocket money"

Modified as I said means Make the Breeders and owners STEP the heck  up!!  Crufts lost the BBC brodcast this year because they wanted 14 breeds disquallified for health reasons. My breed among them. Rather than understand we are doing every thing as a breed to prevent and diagnose the DNA markers for Dermoids they wanted us banned.  We are actively sponsoring the research and willing to make changes to IMPROVE our breed. Was it fair they target us as part of the issue, not really... but ours was due to a health disorder as old as the breed it's self.

Not due to a bunch of idiots breeding out of their garage or yard to make a fast couple pf hundred bucks. In the South there is a line of Pitties thought to be most impressive called Hanging Tree..... the name came up because the dogs were hung rather than wasting a bullet if they would not fight!

misstrouble

Most of those Pittie bites were from dogs on chains. If I spent my whole life on a 35lb++ chain, I'd be wanting to bite someone too(and, possibley being used for fighting).

THERE is ZERO data to prove this..... It is a good guess but again No laws to protect the dogs from this treatment. No laws to understand this would make a lab or poodle nasty 

misstrouble

I can understand why it would be useful, but there are plenty of Pit's, Dobies, Rotties, ect, that are owned by good, caring, loving families that aree effected by BSL too.

Again we are not in disagreement.  I routinally see these dog who are darlings...but .. they are WELL BRED AKC CHAMPION SHOW STOCK Not back yard bred POS.  If Nurture beat out Nature everytime all it would take is laws to specifically demand the correct education, training and treatment of these breeds..... but No one wants to understand tehre are parts of the country who don't give a rat's behind.

Currently the number one dog reported for simple bites is the Dachshund!!!  The dogs in the above numbers had to do with serious injury to DEATH.

Wake up , we need to make people responsible. Both Breeders and Owners. If not then the breeds will be lost and it is our fault!

Bonita of Bwana

Bonita of Bwana

Please re read my reasons for wanting modified BSL....sigh   seriously it is NOT the owners..it is the Idiot Breeders who are not placing and keeping track of the dogs and their get !!! 

Sorry Bonita! I didn't read all of the postings.

Your BSL would work well possibly, but getting that into a politicans head and then thru legislation would be extremely difficult.

AgileGSD

I do see a very real possibility that certain breeds will become extinct in my lifetime due to BSL in some cases and breeders of all breeds being made into criminals through a variety of other restrictive laws (limit laws, MSN laws, high fees for owning intact animals, "responsible breeding legislation";) in other cases.

Sorry but I have no problem with this.... If I can not do my job as a breeder, document every educational effort and what I do to select my breeding stock then I should NOT be breeding.  I would willingly pay fees to license my animals but my area does not require it... so for the lack of funding decent , loving dogs and cats are put down daily. I know breeder who have produced so many litter they can not tell me how many puppies and wher they are off the top of their head and even after some research they will miss many, 

IF I could get my county to establish Responsible Breeding Laws NOW then all of you who live in areas already dealing with horrific animal issues could have a second choice of where to live and why. But I do not want all of you scampering here because there are NO rules and regulations enforced. I do not want YOUR issues becoming mine. I would far rather have limits , rules and regs in place that prohibit the abuse of breeds because there isn't anything stopping you from tying a dog out today.  My way is expensive. But in our current economy maybe, just maybe we need to short circut this cash cow from breeding poor quality animals until they can no longer produce ? And understanding owning  and Breeding a dog is  a LUXURY not a right. If you can not afford to do it right why allow you to keep on doing it??

Bonita of Bwana

You want to talk numbers? A year or two ago, the statistics showed the greatest number of bites went to Labs, followed behind by Siberians. Shadow's both. And the bad dog used to be Dobies, and Rotties. You don't have to get rid of a breed, just get rid of stupid people. That is a somewhat self-correcting problem for a jurisdiction that has some cajones. Stupid people often do stupid things, criminal things, and they often get caught and arrested. All the courts have to do is actually put the criminal in jail and keep them there. Some jurisdictions in the Southeast already play tough. They hand over gun charges in a drug bust to the feds. That's a mandatory 5 to 8 years federal, before serving your local sentence. It got so that police in this one town were busting drug gangs that weren't carrying heat. Why? Because that meant the difference between fed time and local time which might be commuted or at least drastically reduced for good behavior.

AR groups are not even for the animals any more, unless you count mass euth for "rescued pets" some kind of "freedom." Such as PETA rescuing animals only to euth them behind a grocery store and dump them in the trash bin. I don't consider that AR. Nor do I consider the movement to ban pet ownership and return them to the "wild" good for the animals. In fact, I think the rabid AR units should be put down. Yes, they have freedom of speech, no they do not have the right to foist their view on others.

There's always a movement for BSL. There is never a movement to get rid of stupid humans and we don't allow nature to take its course with stupid humans.

No, not in any form.  What I do support is higher licensing fees to increase revenues so there will be adequate staffing to enforce the statutes that have already passed.  The problem with BSL is it is a knee jerk reaction to a critical incident.  Emotions are high, politicians get the opportunity for face time with the media and the frenzy begins.  If BSL continues more and more breeds will be considered illegal.  I have owned Dobermans, GSDs and now Belgians...I do not wish to have my breeds of choice disappear and they will if the trend continues.

 Enforce leash laws, clean up laws and licensing and most of the situations that start the hyper responses will be eliminated.  I would even support a one bite rule, rather than give up a breed altogether.  It would break my heart if it was my dog, but I understand that may be a price that has to be paid for the freedom of choice.

Before joining this board I was a Pithater.I wanted them banned.I did not want existing dogs to die but I wanted them all speutered and for the breed to be extingished.I now really like the breed and were it not for my desire to have multiple dogs would own one.I too question the statistics.I agree with mrv,enforce bite laws.I would include jail time for the owner if there's more than one incident.People should be held accountable if their dog bites a human being.

Tena