Learn from my mistakes with breeders. What would you do next?

    • Bronze

    Learn from my mistakes with breeders. What would you do next?

    We got Apollo and Mya in July, 2010 from South Branch Goldens in Caroline, Wisconsin. They were great puppies and we were looking forward to their becoming part of our family. Their sire is Risky Roy Golden Erinor (SR55396901) and the dam is Wiesman's Golden Triscuit (SN91977601) and they were born 5/13/2010.

    Unfortunately, Apollo began to slow down and eventually stopped eating. On 7/29/10, we took Apollo to the vet for evaluation due to his not eating, lethargy, and markedly abnormal urine. He was in severe liver failure and our vet indicated his prognosis was very poor, likely due to a liver shunt which would ultimately lead to heart failure as he aged. So, we contacted the breeder and returned him to the breeder the next day as part of our contract requirement as opposed to having him put down with our vet that day.

    Without trying to impart too many human emotions, it seemed that Mya wasn't very active and seemed to be down. Also, we felt that we need dogs to be in pairs to be able to keep each other company. So, we looked for a partner for Mya.

    After scouring the web for options, there weren't many dogs available locally. We found a breeder in Arkansas called Wisteria Goldens or Wisteria Ranch. They were very easy to talk to and we ended up driving down to Chicago to pick up Max. His sire is White Dove's Aspen Winter [Aspen] (SR20458303) and his dam is Splendid Star Tango [Lyra] (SR43253403).

    Unfortunately, about 7-10 days after the bottom picture was taken, Max's limp started showing up. We gave him a few days at home to see how he'd do in case he just had a minor ache or pain. The pain lasted a week, so we took him in. He's been on an anti-inflammatory for about twelve days now and is still limping. At times he has been somewhat better, but he is still limping extensively. So, we're continuing his leash-only time outside and continuing his anti-inflammatory for another week. If he still is limping at that point, he'll likely need to see a pet orthopedic doctor.

    When we saw the vet for Max, her differential included soft tissue injury and elbow dysplasia. I ended up searching online to find out more about elbow dysplasia. If you're not familiar with it, be sure to check out the sire and dam on the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals site. This allows you to look up elbow, hip, heart, and eye clearance. Another clearance choice is PennHIP.

    Anyway, I searched for Max's sire and dam on the OFA and got a surprise! Max's sire is listed as having known elbow dysplasia that was diagnosed 2/22/2007. What's important about this is that his dysplasia is listed as being moderate and Wisteria Goldens is still breeding the animal with the suggestion on the OFA site of a known genetic disorder without disclosing the issue to potential clients. What's even more important about this is that the Wisteria website does not list certification data, unlike other breeder websites which list specifics of clearances. I had contacted them prior to the purchase to clarify any evidence of clearance and they made no effort to clarify Max's sire's history.

    After getting the concerning information from the vet that Max may have elbow dysplasia and learning of Max's sire's elbow dysplasia, I contacted Wisteria Goldens. I asked about why they hadn't told me about the sire's OFA data and they said their vet disagreed, so they didn't think they needed to talk about it. I've since contacted them and told them I'm concerned that their actions were consistent with nondisclosure of a heritable risk. The response I got was that there haven't been other joint problems in the offspring, so they still believe their non-disclosure is reasonable.

    I would suggest Wisteria Goldens has not been forthright and that potential customers need to be aware of a possible issue with Aspen. Importantly, if Wisteria Goldens isn't being open about Aspen, their lack of communication also makes me question what they're doing with their other breeding pairs if they weren't open about Aspen's possible elbow dysplasia diagnosis. Admittedly, I appreciate that doctors may disagree with one another. However, the breeder isn't a vet and shouldn't be hiding information from potential clients, especially when the dogs cost more than $2,000 and I asked for specific information about their dogs and they didn't tell me.

    [[Was my last post deleted or did I make a mistake posting it?]]

    • Gold Top Dog

    I'm so sorry you had to learn about these things in the ways you did.  Your first dog's liver shunt may or may not have been genetic, and there's no definitive way of predicting congenital shunts yet.  But, in the case of the second breeder, continuing to breed a dog with bad elbows is horrible.  If your story saves one other person from buying from a disreputable breeder, it was worth posting, so thank you. 

    Reputable hobby breeders test, work and show their dogs.  Internet puppy mills, backyard breeders, and pet stores don't.  And, it's often cheaper to buy a really good pup from a reputable breeder than from one of the shysters.  Lurkers--- If you are thinking of buying, go to the local AKC or UKC breed club for a referral.  Stay away from hybrids, "new" breeds, or rare colors that are listed as faults, and don't buy litter mates!  The Wisteria page gave me pause just on its face because the breeder is obviously concerned mainly with color, not necessarily quality, and the dogs have champions in their pedigrees but don't appear to have been shown themselves, which is often a clue that the breeder is just in it for the money, not to improve the breed.

    Disreputable breeders often tell customers that the puppies or dogs are "vet checked" but that just means they have no obvious sign of a communicable disease.  Ask for, and get, information on genetic testing, or don't buy the puppy no matter how cute it is.

    As to what our OP can do now, read the contract you signed when you bought the pup and speak to an attorney to understand any options you may have.  

    • Bronze
    spiritdogs
    As to what our OP can do now, read the contract you signed when you bought the pup and speak to an attorney to understand any options you may have.
    Agree. I'm waiting to get a firm diagnosis before I proceed with anything more aggressive. I realize some things may happen to the dog that are not the responsibility of the breeder. The part that is frustrating to me is that the breeder: 1) knowingly bred a dog with elbow dysplasia; and 2) failed to disclose it to me when I directly asked.
    • Moderators
    • Gold Top Dog

     It's probably too late to mention it now, but GR are a breed with a division between show and working (hunting) stock.  There are some breeder/trainers with beautiful healthy dogs that they work hard and play with even harder.  They frequently can show you both the sire and dame and can usually give you health histories for several generations.  One of my nephews recently bought a GR pup from a local breeder/trainer who is working with him on training the pup. 

    Sorry about you problems.  

    • Gold Top Dog

      I am curious as to if this post is in line with board guidelines.

       It would seem the info on the parents was available before you purchased Max. Always a good idea to ask about health clearances specifically before buying a puppy. It doesn't seem the breeder was trying to hide anything, since the dog is listed on OFA as having ED (breeders can opt to hide results from public viewing) so you could have easily found that out beforehand. OFA elbows are a hot topic with breeders these days, as some dogs are failing when no other vets can find anything wrong with the dog's elbow. One of my dog's sisters could not pass OFA elbows due to an injury. There are also people including veterinarians who believe that dogs who are only dysplastic on one side (hips or elbows) are injury or even nutrition related and not genetic. Nothing is ever black and white. Not saying I would be comfortable buying a Golden puppy from a sire with moderate ED, just saying that there are a lot of different opinions out there on such issues.

     The puppy with the liver shunt is unfortunate but something that happens. It doesn't mean the breeder was disreputable or that their dogs are poor quality.

       What I would suggest you do next is love your dogs and be a bit more thorough with your research next time. But understand that any time you bring a puppy home, from a breeder or from a shelter or anywhere you are taking a chance. All dogs, purebred and mixed breeds carry the potential to produce any number of genetic issues. There are no genetically normal dogs, just like there are no genetically normal humans. Breeders can attempt to weight the odds in their favor through health screening and research but it is unrealistic and impossible for one to expect nothing but perfect puppies from any breeder.