Enabling Culture

 Saying something nice and enabling are two different things.  As are debating and fighting.  I think people are worried because we've had an issue of over moderation in the past... now we let things go as long as there isn't insulting behavior.  I don't want to tell people "if you don't agree with X, you should slam them." because that's not accurate either.

 I get what you're saying and that people are bending over backwards to try to stay positive, but honesly yelling at her would do nothing but shut her down, as you said in another thread, Paige. I agree.  

 I'm not sure I'm understanding why we need a public discussion about the 'overly nice" thing.... people are allowed to express their opinions as long as they aren't directly (or I guess in some ways indirectly) insulting others.  Maybe having a discussion on dog training vs. human relationships and their similarities and dis-similarities. Such as, if you  pop a dog on the nose it may shut down, and if you figuratively "pop" a human on the nose, they will have a similar reaction.  Feel free to disagree, and we should definitely be open in here about this, I just don't think a green light to potential "popping" will be the right answer, either.

 I'm glad you brought this up Paige. I'm curious, who's  complaining?? (I promise I won't tell, just curious)

 And just to add, I thought several people were walking the line nicely.  Someone (can't recall who, Candace, I think?) said something about understanding a reactionary "pop".... but, not coming in here and "bragging" about it.  I thought that was excellent... several have posted their opinions.  I really like that a lot of our members are very effective communicators in these situations.  

Sera_J

 I'm not sure I'm understanding why we need a public discussion about the 'overly nice" thing....

The underground current needs to change.  I'm a little more "above board".  Maybe a public discussion isn't right, but I want it acknowledged that people need to quit coddling. I feel hindered in doing that because I'm a mod, and don't want to be seen as "the police", but it needs to be said by someone, and I suspect that us ignoring it, tells the members that this is what's expected/accepted as behavior for this forum.  I want to be clear that it isn't... or is it??  I guess I don't want to go out on a limb if I go "guys, really, this person needs to recognize the wrong here, and get some help on doing it right.  By ignoring the bad, the bad persists..." if you don't support that.

Sera_J

I'm curious, who's  complaining?? (I promise I won't tell, just curious)

Sera_J

Someone (can't recall who, Candace, I think?) said something about understanding a reactionary "pop".... but, not coming in here and "bragging" about it.  I thought that was excellent... several have posted their opinions.  I really like that a lot of our members are very effective communicators in these situations.  

Yes, and I think it's because Stephanie stepped up (and she's been backing out of those threads rather than saying something "not nice"... and then a mod came in and backed her up.)  I think that one thread is the only time in the last few weeks that I've seen a real effort to go "HEY, wait a minute... that's not right".  Gina tried in one thread, I tried in the Lab forum thread... but this thread finally brought it to a head.  And, yes, I'm thrilled with the posts in there - constructive criticism along with the "hey, that's not ok" part...

But if Kim comes on to introduce her newest addition and she gets "aww, cute puppy", I'm gonna hurl.  ALthough, I suspect that one has burned so many people that she will get a treatment like Mehpenn...

 I guess I'm not sure about how to alter this behavior or if it really needs altering.  I hate the enabling but no one is asking people to enable.  They are choosing to do it because it is easier than taking the time to formulate a non-nasty constructive criticism response. Although for a time the forum was over-moderated it hasn't been for a long time.

The mods were really tough on some of the characters that did let people know they were way off base/out of line so they left.  What remains are people that are 'too nice' to want to upset people.

I think another factor is that we have a lot of active members that are not very educated or evolved in their dog training and knowledge.  To the average Joe 'a pop on the nose' is fairly normal.  I know it does nothing to teach the dog but if you step outside dog circles I don't think many would think anything of it.  Not supporting it just saying ............not everyone knows what you know.

 in fact right now I could pop Bugsy on the nose because he is trying to take the shoes off my feet with his mouth and or paws and its driving me nuts  - luckily he has moved on to DH's shoes

(OK sorry its been a really long week and I'm on my 3rd glass of wine and I am a two glass sort of person)

.

kpwlee

I think another factor is that we have a lot of active members that are not very educated or evolved in their dog training and knowledge.  To the average Joe 'a pop on the nose' is fairly normal.  I know it does nothing to teach the dog but if you step outside dog circles I don't think many would think anything of it. 

kpwlee

I hate the enabling but no one is asking people to enable. 

So, I think I've been under some false impression that this was the environment the mods created, and I see from the responses of both of you that it's the whole community and you don't support it, but ignore it.  I'm not holding back anymore, thinking that the mods are required to maintain and support the "nicey-nice".

miranadobe

So, I think I've been under some false impression that this was the environment the mods created, and I see from the responses of both of you that it's the whole community and you don't support it, but ignore it.  I'm not holding back anymore, thinking that the mods are required to maintain and support the "nicey-nice".

  I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here, Paige?  We ignore the nicey-nice....?? I think I was pretty clear with both of you that what I was hoping was a forum that was much less moderated than has been in past years, more like the iDog I joined when Jaime was Admin.  Discussion was free flowing, I was bonked on the head hard cause I posted a photo of my dog riding loose in the front seat.  You'd think I had beat my dog and thrown her out the window with the flaming I took for that. 

Which is better?  Flaming a newb cause she, apparently foolishly, posted a photo of a dog riding free in a car?  Or NOT snapping at someone who bonks their dog on the snout?  

MY opinion is there is has to be a happy medium.  While we shouldn't coddle or condone abuse, we run the very real risk of driving off someone who may otherwise learn something.... flaming is addictive, and everyone loves the bandwagon, but I don't think it's as useful to the person getting flamed as is someone who comes in with a well worded response.  So, what do we want?  I think by lighting this fire, we could have a lot of people jump on the bandwagon and light the newbs on fire.  Great.... we all feel better, but what is accomplished?   

 Again, personally I would like to see more debate, we saw a serious decline in membership when we started having all these "yes, let's all sing cumbiyah" (no, i don't know how to spell it and I'm not looking it up right now, either! LOL :)  anyway, I was hoping with time they'd test the line and see where it is.  Anne brought debate, was it fun, because none of us agreed with her? Not so much, well she's stopped.  Now we are all singing cumbiyah.  ..... I see it this way, it's either flame heavy or cumbiyah heavy (with forays into the opposite, very yin-and-yang) ..... but, really it's going to be one or the other.

I don't want people to fear the Police, as much as apparently they do.  That's no fun for anyone.  But, as Karen pointed out, it's not been moderated very heavily for a long time, and this is the forum we have.  What do we want to do with it?  What direction do we want to take it?  Really we set the tone, indirectly and directly.  Indirectly through our moderation, directly through our participation.

I want to hear your thoughts on that.  We can bring back the flame throwers, but it can get tough.... I've been there.  Kelly came in and brough Glenda/Ixas_Girl on board as Mods and made everyone wear pink fluffly gowns and eat cotton candy and ride unicorn. That sucked.  ... but, that's where the temperature on the board really changed.   It's never really fully recovered. 

So, that's my take on it. .. and a small rant. LOL I'm gonna join you Karen.  Paige, let's have a drink!! :)  I just got home from 2 hours of puppy breath, God Weim pups are good for the soul.

Sera_J

I think I was pretty clear with both of you that what I was hoping was a forum that was much less moderated than has been in past years, more like the iDog I joined when Jaime was Admin. 

Not how I intended it to sound.... I mean more along the lines of, I was clear about how I felt and you agreed that it should change in that direction.  I hope, hope, HOPE that you girls feel just as entitled to express your opinions and it's not just what I say goes.  Because that's not how I feel. I know I've moderated longer, technically, but that really doesn't mean much except that I've moderated longer.

Anyway, I know I also seemed to sway back and forth in the above rant.  I guess it's cause that's how I actually feel. I could go either way.... but, I'm really hoping that we can accomplish what we all wanted, a forum that is open to discussion and free thought, without the constant worry of red ink for being off topic or similar.  I would prefer it to be more middle of the road, maybe a few flames a few nicey-nice....... but, mainly middle of the road.  That's my personal preference.

 Ok - I need to stop. LOL

 Drinking times!!

miranadobe

I think the average person here DOES know better than to pop the dog in the face, as evidenced by the responses. 

miranadobe

To the average Joe 'a pop on the nose' is fairly normal.

In no way am I endorsing it but I think it is important to keep perspective.  As Lani says if people just lay into the person they learn nothing. So if one wants to help people learn and make behavioral change the response has to be carefully worded for that person to consider changing their current 'knowledge' and replacing it with new information.

Carefully worded doesn't mean holding back - it just doesn't translate to "you stupid idiot"

not anything more I can say on that topic

An issue for me is that some of the people doing stupid things are long time members -  Glenda used to tell everyone how she could walk her six GSD's off leash with no problems and all was like a fairy tale.  Now she can't handle them at all and they are attacking each other 'when her DH isn't there'. No one has said anything to her about this.  If a newbie had 6 GSD's and wasn't able to handle them and they were attacking each other - things would be said. And yes we all know her life has been a disaster over the last year or so is that why its OK for her to have this situation?  I think that is why she is getting leeway.

Another example Kitty/Sandy what's her name - lives in filth (iirc her boyfriend is on long term welfare), not taking care of the dogs she has, planning new additions, dishes out retarded training advice - now that she's a pro HA. How come no one steps up? Because they 'know' her.

As for Ann all I wanted from her was to stop the spinning circles with espencer and anyone using an ecollar or other soapbox for her.  There were other members that had no tact but they were slapped by previous mods way too often and left.

Tiffy is just catty not helpful

Lani jealous of your puppy weim time!

I need to get moving - have a good day all

kpwlee

miranadobe

I think the average person here DOES know better than to pop the dog in the face, as evidenced by the responses. 

yes the average member here does I specifically said

miranadobe

To the average Joe 'a pop on the nose' is fairly normal.

I think you meant to quote yourself on the second one.  The way I interpreted your quote "To the average Joe 'a pop on the nose' is fairly normal" - I took that to mean you thought our average posters here thought it was "normal" and "ok" and that's what I disagreed with that.

kpwlee

Glenda used to tell everyone how she could walk her six GSD's off leash with no problems and all was like a fairy tale.  Now she can't handle them at all and they are attacking each other 'when her DH isn't there'. No one has said anything to her about this. 

The difference here is she used to live in the middle of nowhere in Michigan, where a random person coming up their driveway was an anomoly.  She walked those dogs off-leash in the woods/through meadows - not city streets, through a mobile home park/campground, etc. They lived in a house with a large fenced yard to blow off steam.  Now they've been living on top of eachother in an RV for the last 2 years, moving here and there... I am absolutely not surprised that they're giving her grief now, and nor does that take away from whatever she was able to do in the past.  (If one believes it...) Because she's a long-term member, people know that history.  They know she knows whom she can go to behind the scenes for help - and I fully suspect that Anne is assisting her, or would if asked.

kpwlee

And yes we all know her life has been a disaster over the last year or so is that why its OK for her to have this situation?  I think that is why she is getting leeway.

Well, then why haven't you said anything if you see a problem with it?  I don't think you're alone in feeling that way, and you participate in threads where she says these things, so what stops you from saying anything?  I'm using you as an example as a member here.

kpwlee

Another example Kitty/Sandy what's her name - lives in filth (iirc her boyfriend is on long term welfare), not taking care of the dogs she has, planning new additions, dishes out retarded training advice - now that she's a pro HA. How come no one steps up? Because they 'know' her.

 THIS, however, I believe to be an example of people afraid of being bashed for "not saying anything nice".  Because the whole culture here is "nicey-nice".  But that I'm clearly wrong on, given the discussions above.

I'm going to take this as I'm wrong, and go about my business. 

 I have a client in 8 minutes so .........

miranadobe

Well, then why haven't you said anything if you see a problem with it?  I don't think you're alone in feeling that way, and you participate in threads where she says these things, so what stops you from saying anything? 

miranadobe

I think you meant to quote yourself on the second one. 

miranadobe

THIS, however, I believe to be an example of people afraid of being bashed for "not saying anything nice".  Because the whole culture here is "nicey-nice".  But that I'm clearly wrong on, given the discussions above.

I'm going to take this as I'm wrong, and go about my business. 

Why are you "wrong"??? At this point, I don't see that we are disagreeing!  I think we are on the same page but arguing semantics, ie the REASONS people are being excruciatingly nice. Karen's saying it's because it's easier, Paige you're saying it's because of the culture here.  OK -- so, people are nice.  Usually that's a good thing, but in a situation that it's to someone's detriment and becoming enabling, it does become a problem.  Remember when I got into it with whats-her-face, and everyone was upset a MOD was getting into it with someone, and Paige, you agreed I was going too far. I did back off...... very unhappily, might I add! (LOL) But, I did.  I was trying to keep it debate, she was trying to upscale it into an argument.  I was certainly not nicey-nice. People thought it was insane that a Mod was debating so (I like the word "effectively", but I doubt that'd be their choice of words! :)  .... meanly, I guess.  Anyway, I backed off.  It is a nicey-nice culture..... partly because people like me get tired of getting slapped by everyone else when they step up to the plate.  That MY $.02 to add to the discussion.

I will freely admit, I probably was being too aggressive, and you were right to tell me to back-off Paige, but, my point is valid. Like 5 members all jumped to her defense because they thought the Po-Po was coming in and pushing people around, I assume.  So, I've given up.... I just don't really post in those threads anymore. They up my blood pressure and apparently I'm not allowed to debate.  ..... I'm guessing others feel that way, too.  

 I think you're right, Karen.  A lot of people got slapped around by Mod's for really stupid reasons. Being "off topic", or just for angering the Mod's and they came up with new rules to get rid of the obnoxious members.  I don't think that's really fair, either.  So, they left.... and we have left a core group of really nice folks.

 I will say that, who was it, Barbara? Or Dawn? Who came into Kim's thread when she got Rueben and said what everyone was thinking. I thought she did it very diplomatically.... and everyone backed her up.  Do we want more of that?  I guess WE (being Mod's) are not the folks to institute the change, we are the police, and they will get a pack mentality if we come in bashing someone, even in a well worded response.... we need to let the members do it, and then allow them to learn they didn't get in trouble for it.  But, maybe that won't happen? I mean, it's been what? at least a year now since the change, and far less red ink on the board....... and they are still like good little soldiers.

Not sure.  First, DO we want to change this?  I'm guessing yes.  HOW do we change it, then?  We've led them to water, now they have to drink.......

Sera_J

I mean, it's been what? at least a year now since the change, and far less red ink on the board....... and they are still like good little soldiers.

Not sure.  First, DO we want to change this?  I'm guessing yes.  HOW do we change it, then?  We've led them to water, now they have to drink.......

as for the culture I think we are all in agreement just saying it differently - that it's easier (by this I meant less time consuming, less strife=lower blood pressure, etc), there are a lot of just plain old nice people on the board and also I think most come to the board for enjoyment and a bit of learning when they need/want it. Heck I know I don't come here looking for aggro.

If people want more serious threads they just need to start them, debates have not been discouraged.

 ... Paige, I'm VERY sorry if I offended you.  It was not my intention! Just was saying what I see, what may not be anyone but my own perception of what is happening.

Hope that everything is going OK.