The "doodle" craze

    • Gold Top Dog

    sillysally

    rwbeagles

    sillysally
    And I'm sorry, but who died and gave anyone in the dog world the right to decide that we now, in 2008, have enough dog breeds and no more should be developed? 

     

    I'd say the shelter dogs...?

    They might be reason this is being said now, in 2000whatever (because this has been going on far longer than 2008)...that enough is enough, and that what breeds we have now...have issues...and we should perhaps work on those issues, instead of spreading them around into different "new" breeds, along with exacerbating the issue of unwanted pets?

     

    But wait, I thought that the overpopulation of dogs had nothing to do with breeding but rather irresponsible pet owners dumping their dogs?  isn't that the argument of choice against mandatory altering?       

    Sorry, but I look at my shelters and I don't see hybrids.  I see pit bulls, labs, GSDs, beagles, herding dogs, hounds, boxers, chows, huskies, rots, JRTs, and mixes thereof--not doodles. 

    I find it hypocritical for "dog people" to just decide that these dogs are not legitimate because most breeders are not being responsible when breeding them when the fact of the matter is that most breeders PERIOD are not responsible.  People in glass houses should not throw stones.

    And tell me, has this attitude of "shunning" hybrid breeders and owners helped the situation?  This is a list os "hybrid" dogs from Dog Breed Info: http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/hybriddogs.htm

    I think it is fair to say that what the dog world is currently doing in regards to "hybrids" is falling slightly short of the mark, no?

     

     Completely agree.  The vast majority of purebred dogs are bred irresponsibly.  It is not hybrid issue.  I also don't see how titles in either conformation or sporting events is "improving the breed", since excelling at these activities benefits the humans involved, not the dogs.  Health and temperment should be the most important because the vast majority of people want a dog as a pet.

     One of my dogs comes from both parents being AKC conformation champions and one of his parents has an obedience title (the criteria I once used to determine that this was a good breeder) and he has so many behavioral issues I don't even know where to begin - maybe because she was more concerned with titles than properly socializing her pups. 

    Also, any argument against creating new breeds can also be used against breeding and continuing the currently existing breeds - especially with regards to homeless and unwanted pets.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    brookcove
    Physically, most title-rewarding events are a poor indication of soundness, and they are not the best test of temperamental soundness for most dogs, either.

     

    Gosh no - I wasn't saying that the titles tell us the temperament of the dog!  I was saying that the breeder should have a better idea of the dog's temperament by "pushing" them by taking them to various events. Smile

    • Gold Top Dog

     Exactly Chuffy. That would be my thoughts also. A titled dog would be far from the defining reason to get a dog from that breeder. It would just be a good place to start. You may also find other breeders, thanks to the breeder who has titled their dog. They may be breeders who do not have titles but are active in the dog world and the breeder you first spoke to has sent you to them.......might even be a breeder of a different breed. Perhaps the first breeder you spoke with didn't think their breed was the best match for you. Checking into dogs that have titled, just opens you up into the dog world of people that really have an interest in doing things with dogs, and so therefore, hopefully anyway, have more knowledge of dogs. They may even send you in the direction of breed rescue or suggest that a dog from a shelter may very well fit your needs.

    • Gold Top Dog
    I think I didn't express myself well there. I was actually sort of agreeing with you both. The thing is, a title is not a title is not a title. First, is the title an advanced one? That's a good indication, though not a definitive one as I mentioned in my caveat prefacing this, of temperamental soundness. Sure, you can take a trainable dog and cover up natural weaknesses - sharpness, shyness, reactivity - but, as long as you don't make the mistake of exacerbating this in the next generation, what's the difference between a trained dog that is trained to control its impulses, and a dog that's naturally perfect temperamentally? In fact, a dog that CAN control itself, in my line of work, is worth more than the dog that rarely has to. That's not true of household guardian breeds and family dogs, of course, but it is an example of where training is needed to sort out the line. Second, is the title relevant to the purpose of the breeding? Note, I didn't say the purpose of the breed. There's many breeds that have lost their original true working purpose - some for the better. But breeders can establish targets for their own kennels - objective working targets to ensure that they produce dogs that are healthy and mentally sound. Even a toy breed can do rally, basic obedience - and I'd prefer a toy breed from a kennel that is certifying their dogs as therapy dogs. That's surely the highest level of "work" for a companion breed. There isn't just hunting for the hounds - there's tracking and obedience (yes, don't snicker). Third, is there "depth" in the kennel - older dogs with higher level titles and achievements in multiple venues, adults in active competition, and young dogs in training? Fourth, are the titles reflective of what the dogs are capable of? Breeding stock should be high achievers but I totally understand that there's actually little difference between someone who puts a CGC, a CD, and a TDX on a Basset (no offence to you Basset lovers), and someone who has Tervs with Sch III, MAD, HCh, etc. In fact, I'd be a bit more impressed at the Basset owner. LOL!
    • Gold Top Dog

    sillysally...

    We are not some uni-mind...we are individual people with our own brains and thoughts. For you to tell me I need to accept someone doing something I find wrong is fine for you to say...but really has no bearing on me as a person. I make those decisions for myself, thanks...and my views need not represent anyone other than myself.

    Shunning indeed...disapproval is hardly shunning, it is opinion. If someone person were to ask me how to go about breeding their doodle's reputably I would share what I know...but JUST like when my daughter comes up to me someday and says she wants to do it with her BF, I am not going to hand her a condom..hug her, and say "bless you my child, have fun" I am going to tell her my feelings on why it's NOT a good choice at that time "safe" or not...then her choice is her choice and the consequences her consequences. But she WILL be told my thoughts.

    If that bothers you on some level so be it. I can live just fine with that.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Confirmation titles on a Lab are just gravy, IMO.I wish that Labs could not show in the ring until they have at least a Senior Hunter.  Why even bother if the dog can't or won't do what he is designed to do?  I don't give much weight to Junior Hunter titles with retrievers.  I can put that on just about any dog that is able to walk and carry something at the same time.  As Brookcove said, it's the advanced titles the parents have attained that speak to the dog's abilities.  And a Labradoodle could have both parents with field titles and that would tell me quite a lot about the dogs and the breeder.  I'm hoping to see a standard poodle in the Master National someday and then maybe I'll start breeding doodles! LOL and just kidding.  I am so not into breeding dogs.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I wanted to chime in and this looked like a good spot.

    My dog is a mix. I did not buy him that way. In fact, I was fairly ignorant of dog stuff, in general, aside from having been around dogs in my life, all of them purebreds. My grandparents had a champion Apricot Poodle named Danny. He was a little too tall to show but it turned out that he could sire show-winning pups. And he was retired from breeding at about 3 or 4 years old. My granparents, not being breeders, gave him a home and then learned their lesson a little bit later when he sired a litter with their Black Poodle, Cassie (named after Mama Cass in the Mamas and the Papas.) Being unable or unknowledgable about keeping intact pets, they had him neutered after that.

    Shadow was bought by friends from a pet store. The breeder, listed on the purchase papers, does not show up on any lists. No breeder lists, no puppy mill lists. More than likely, a byb or an oops litter, like my granparents. I like to describe him as a bubba with a box o' pups. A clueless redneck. Though, he might have done it on purpose, though still haphazard, such as not providing contact information to track how well the mix is doing. That is, it might have been fine, theoretically, to mix two breeds to see if the resulting dog is an improvement over either but you need numbers to quantify that.

    Some geneticists will tell you that mixes are generally healthier because problems that are doubled by close sanguinity line breeding are stopped in the resulting litter, mainly because the recessive in one parent did not find a complement in the donation from the other parent. Problem is, when you want to continue that mix, you start to run into the same problem as pure breed breeders. What recessives in each parent are going to double up? Also, most byb's and mixed breeders are not savvy to what happens in the formation of a zygote. The nDNA recombines or shuffles the deck in the conception of each zygote in a litter. That is why one litter can produce varied effects from just the two parents. It's havoc on a breeding program but, by evolution, it is the way of the world. Mutations are created and the ones that best allow the zygote to survive in the world get passed on. My co-worker, John has a Sharpei named Augustus Caesar (Gus) and both of his parents are black but Gus is fawn. Also, because of the way that nDNA recombines, you can't accurately predict results with just the mendelian math model. That model is only good for a statistical forecast. The proof is in the pudding, as it were.

    Shadow seems to be a good dog and the only defect I can see is that sometimes, when excited, his scalp gets a cramp pulling down on the right side. A little massage helps. I think it's a result of the genetic shuffle. Sibe ears are held up and Lab ears hang down and his neurons get confused. So, let's say he is a good dog and fairly healthy. At 5.5 years, he has yet to show any signs of Hip Dysplasia. His vision is good. He is over standard height for either breed. Kind of underweight for a Lab because his bone density is that of a Sibe. So, let's say that the breeding of his parents produced a fairly good dog. Well, even a blind hog finds an acorn, once in a while, to use an old expression. And it's no guarantee that litters from him would produce other healthy dogs.

    As for jobs, most breeds had jobs and there is no need to mix breeds to create superior working dogs. There is no need to mix breeds to improve one breed. But people have created new breeds from mixes. The Dogo de Argentino is one example I can think of. But even so, once the new foundation was established, rigorous breeding practices were required to refine the breed to a standard of form, workability, and temperment to meet the job demanded of them.

    Even the Alaskan Husky, which is not a breed but a type of dog, starts to fall under rules of breeding. A "legitimate" AH breeder only breeds from dogs from winning teams. And their desire is to create the biggest, strongest, fastest sled dog, which has nothing to do with temperment in a family. AH breeders would like you to think that the ones that do not make the team live out their lives still being worked by mushers but that is not the case. That would be too many dogs to hang onto. Out of 3 litters in a year, 6 might make it to a team. That leaves an average of 9 dogs who were not bred for temperment or obedience to wind up somewhere else or culled.

    And so, I think, the ideal of creating an "hypoallergenic" dog, which sounds like an oxymoron to me, is doomed to failure. First, how do you determine the hypoallergenic status on shedding, alone? Sorry but the allergic reaction is not to the fur, it is to the dander. And every dog produces dander. So do humans. It's how we get rid of dead cell tissue. I saw a Labradoodle at the Dallas SPCA. And I could smell him from 15 feet away. Sorry, but those dogs need grooming. And wouldn't be easier to have a Poodle, whom you can groom regularly be shearing the fur? Besides, Labs are constant shedders. They don't specifically blow coat because they shed all year round.

    As for titles. The next door neighbor hound mix has a CGC. And she would regularly get over the 6 foot fence until they added to it, increasing the height to 7 to 8 feet tall. She likes to bark at Shadow and sometimes lords it over the mini-Schnauzer who is her yard mate. CGC doesn't mean she should be bred.

    Mixed breeding is the same as rolling dice. You might hit 7's. The chances of that are roughly 1 in 43,000. It is more likely that you will not hit 7's. The house always wins. That's a rough analogy and there are more factors than just gravity when it comes to genetics. So let's discount half to account for fatal recombinations where the zygote never takes off. About 1 in 21,000. Just for giggles, let's assume a 50 percent chance of viability to be egalitarian to all breeders. 1 in 10,000. Let's cut that in half to assume a 50 percent chance that no big health problems will diminish the life of the dog, at least not right away. That's 1 in 5,000. The odds are still against producing healthy, superior dogs from just willy nilly breeding. Unless you start tracking genetics and generations, like a pure breeder. In which case, why not just purebreed?

    Yes, there are purebreeds with problems. But the solution is careful breeding, not rolling the dice.

    I know next to nothing about breeding and most who are going to buy mixed breeds on purpose probably know less than I do. That's not an insult, just a forecasted judgement. If they knew something about genetics, they would second-guess their own decision to buy a mixed breed. It's probably a good bet that 50 percent of those will wind up in a shelter. Not so hypoallergenic at all, too much work, baby on the way, moving, "untrainable," etc.

    As others have pointed out, there is so much to breeding besides just putting a couple of dogs together. And I'm not aware of such standards in mixed breeding. Almost by definition of the term mixed breeding, it would seem antithetical to careful breeding.

    • Gold Top Dog

    rwbeagles

    sillysally...

    We are not some uni-mind...we are individual people with our own brains and thoughts. For you to tell me I need to accept someone doing something I find wrong is fine for you to say...but really has no bearing on me as a person. I make those decisions for myself, thanks...and my views need not represent anyone other than myself.

    Shunning indeed...disapproval is hardly shunning, it is opinion. If someone person were to ask me how to go about breeding their doodle's reputably I would share what I know...but JUST like when my daughter comes up to me someday and says she wants to do it with her BF, I am not going to hand her a condom..hug her, and say "bless you my child, have fun" I am going to tell her my feelings on why it's NOT a good choice at that time "safe" or not...then her choice is her choice and the consequences her consequences. But she WILL be told my thoughts.

    If that bothers you on some level so be it. I can live just fine with that.

     

    I never said that anyone had to agree with me.  I was merely expressing my opinion, just as every other poster on this thread has been.

    And yes, some members on here who have had "hybrids" that they paid for have been met with slightly more than disapproval, IMHO.  These were not people breeding the dogs, mind you, but people who owned them.

    I'm have no issue with titling, purebred dogs (Jack is from a breeder and I likely will get another pup from a breeder), etc, and I would never deliberately seek out any kind of purposely bred mutt.  However, I find it a little bizarre that a doodle breeder that has stable dogs, health tests their dogs, takes back puppies and dogs they bred if necessary, screens their buyers, and takes proper care of their animals is a "bad breeder," yet breeders who breed dogs who cannot mate or give birth naturally and happen to put CHs in front of said dog's names are "good breeders," simply because of the kind of dogs they breed.

    I realize that this is not a popular opinion to have, but it is what it is. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    sillysally
    However, I find it a little bizarre that a doodle breeder that has stable dogs, health tests their dogs, takes back puppies and dogs they bred if necessary, screens their buyers, and takes proper care of their animals is a "bad breeder,"

    I'm not being snotty or facetious but I didn't know there were mixed breeders who did this. My local experience is that there is a sign in Southmayd, Texas with the notice that they have Labradoodle pups for sale. I normally associate legitimate breeding with breeders already having owners signed up or ready, as opposed to sticking a sign on hwy 289. I'm not against mixed breeding if the breeder does as you describe, i.e., scientifically. I just haven't encountered people around here who are as careful as I expect legit breeders to be. Today, in the Home Depot parking lot, I saw an SUV with pups for sale. "Yorkshire Terriers - AKC." So, I'm not saying that an ethical mixed breeder doesn't exist, I just didn't know they existed. Usually, as I have mentioned in another post, a person that concerned with genetics and ethics won't bother with mixed breeding. If you know one who does this, what was his reasoning for the mix and how can he determine that the dog lives up to the standard, even if it's one he defined? Please understand I am not being insulting. I'm just trying to understand the reasoning and process.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    sillysally
    However, I find it a little bizarre that a doodle breeder that has stable dogs, health tests their dogs, takes back puppies and dogs they bred if necessary, screens their buyers, and takes proper care of their animals is a "bad breeder," yet breeders who breed dogs who cannot mate or give birth naturally and happen to put CHs in front of said dog's names are "good breeders," simply because of the kind of dogs they breed.

     

    Not trying to argue and I probably just missed it, but who said this?  What I said and some others is that it's darn near impossible to find a doodle breeder who does all of the above.  I'm not saying there aren't a few out there but I am saying that the majority I have researched and talked to did not impress me as wanting to improve anything other than their pocketbook.  I can find quite a number of breeders of pure bred dogs, people with a track record in their breed and a desire to improve the dogs according to the standard.  I can't say that about the mixed breeds that I have looked at which happen to be labradoodles and goldendoodles. I have nothing against any breeder who does all of the above no matter what mix or purebred dog they are breeding. I'm moving on now to new pastures.

    • Gold Top Dog

    ron2

    sillysally
    However, I find it a little bizarre that a doodle breeder that has stable dogs, health tests their dogs, takes back puppies and dogs they bred if necessary, screens their buyers, and takes proper care of their animals is a "bad breeder,"

    I'm not being snotty or facetious but I didn't know there were mixed breeders who did this. My local experience is that there is a sign in Southmayd, Texas with the notice that they have Labradoodle pups for sale. I normally associate legitimate breeding with breeders already having owners signed up or ready, as opposed to sticking a sign on hwy 289. I'm not against mixed breeding if the breeder does as you describe, i.e., scientifically. I just haven't encountered people around here who are as careful as I expect legit breeders to be. Today, in the Home Depot parking lot, I saw an SUV with pups for sale. "Yorkshire Terriers - AKC." So, I'm not saying that an ethical mixed breeder doesn't exist, I just didn't know they existed. Usually, as I have mentioned in another post, a person that concerned with genetics and ethics won't bother with mixed breeding. If you know one who does this, what was his reasoning for the mix and how can he determine that the dog lives up to the standard, even if it's one he defined? Please understand I am not being insulting. I'm just trying to understand the reasoning and process.

     

     

    There is apparently an Australian Labradoodle Club of America:  http://www.australianlabradoodleclub.us/default.asp

    In their Code of Ethics they require that their breeders health test, and the group apparently has a standard.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    JackieG

    sillysally
    However, I find it a little bizarre that a doodle breeder that has stable dogs, health tests their dogs, takes back puppies and dogs they bred if necessary, screens their buyers, and takes proper care of their animals is a "bad breeder," yet breeders who breed dogs who cannot mate or give birth naturally and happen to put CHs in front of said dog's names are "good breeders," simply because of the kind of dogs they breed.

     

    Not trying to argue and I probably just missed it, but who said this?  What I said and some others is that it's darn near impossible to find a doodle breeder who does all of the above.  I'm not saying there aren't a few out there but I am saying that the majority I have researched and talked to did not impress me as wanting to improve anything other than their pocketbook.  I can find quite a number of breeders of pure bred dogs, people with a track record in their breed and a desire to improve the dogs according to the standard.  I can't say that about the mixed breeds that I have looked at which happen to be labradoodles and goldendoodles. I have nothing against any breeder who does all of the above no matter what mix or purebred dog they are breeding. I'm moving on now to new pastures.

     

    No one said this on this thread and I am not denying that the vast, vast majority of "hybrids breeders are irresponsible and in it for the cash.  

    What I am saying is that if I were to come on here and announce that I had found a labradoodle breeder that fit all of the about requirements and was going to be getting a pup, I would undoubtedly be met with opposition.  However, if I came on and announced that I had found a bulldog breeder who health tested and had CHs on their dogs, despite the fact that there are such issues with the breed that bulldogs cannot mate and give birth naturally, the over whelming response would be a positive one.  My goal here is not to be a jerk, I just find that strange.

    • Gold Top Dog

    sillysally
    What I am saying is that if I were to come on here and announce that I had found a labradoodle breeder that fit all of the about requirements and was going to be getting a pup, I would undoubtedly be met with opposition.  However, if I came on and announced that I had found a bulldog breeder who health tested and had CHs on their dogs, despite the fact that there are such issues with the breed that bulldogs cannot mate and give birth naturally, the over whelming response would be a positive one.  My goal here is not to be a jerk, I just find that strange.

     

    You could be right about the reaction you would receive from some and some seem to take a contrary view to just about everything but it all leads to keeping informed and on our toes.  Discussion forces us to think about the other person's statement and that can be educational.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Thank you for that link. Evidently, the breed has been going on for some time, though the only reason I could gleam was the possible hypoallergenic quality of the coat. I've noticed that the conformation is similar to Labs. Nor would it be the first mixed breed to become a pure bred, ala the Dogo de Argentino. It's kind of like a Lab with a Poodle-ish coat. Is there any way to quantify or track just how hypoallergenic they are? I don't guess there's a source of testimonials from people who were normally allergic to every other dog but this one. Nor is it the first time a breed is created for the vanity of man. Most breeds we have are the way they are thanks to humans. And sometimes, to their detriment. I am horrified by the UK version of a show GSD.

    But it kind of leads back to the question of what is the purpose of a Labradoodle. Hypoallergenic status? How is that confirmed? Also, the kind of fur that a poodle has easily attracts dust and pollens because it is so tight and curly. Danny, my granparent's champion Apricot Poodle, could smell to high heaven. Shadow gets a pet wipe every couple of months, mostly in summer. He has no smell otherwise, unless you stick your nose right in his fur. Then he smells like the trees. SAnyway, good luck to the Australian Labradoodle. And shouldn't the breed be known by that name, if that's where it originated?

    • Gold Top Dog

    sillysally

    However, I find it a little bizarre that a doodle breeder that has stable dogs, health tests their dogs, takes back puppies and dogs they bred if necessary, screens their buyers, and takes proper care of their animals is a "bad breeder," yet breeders who breed dogs who cannot mate or give birth naturally and happen to put CHs in front of said dog's names are "good breeders," simply because of the kind of dogs they breed.

    Boy do I wish I could find a doodle breeder like that in the Northwest. Maybe elsewhere in the US, but I have yet to come across one in the Northwest. Because I have doodlish dogs, I have been researching, especially now that I'm dealing with their genetic problems. I find that the doodle craze has become a cheap way for BYBs to make quick money off their dogs.

    It's horrible. I know purebred breeders do this, too (the BYBs). I see their ads in the paper and on Craigslist all the time. The dogs are the ones who pay, of course. Wait, did I say dogs? I mean their new owners are the ones who pay . . . (haha)

    At least the doodles (here) are coming down in price. They're about the same as the purebred BYBs now.