APBTs & AmStaffs

This explains the stupid law better than I can!

http://www.endangereddogs.com/Dangerous%20Dogs%20Act.htm 

They are genetically the same because APBTs were registered with AKC under the name AST. The AKC recognizes them under a different name, but they are different type of the same breed. Like working GSD and show GSD. Some AST have retained their working ability and athleticism but many have not. The AKC wanted to kind of separate themselves from the fighting aspect of the breed, this why they didn't want the words pit in their breed name. Some AST were maintained as game dogs but they quickly turned to show dogs with very few exceptions of pit fighting, the AKC stud books were open lastly in the 1970s for APBTs to be registered with the AKC again. There are some differences between some APBT and some AST but you also have to consider that AST are also registered with registries as APBTs. There is some difference between the AKC dogs and the others of temperament and drive with some exceptions though.

#1 Is a bit hard to tell, maybe an APBT or possibly an APBT with AST somewhere back in the pedigree.It is a very nice looking dog but might have a little staff in there?

#2 Looks APBT all the way, similar to my girl

#3 AST type, especially the head, reminds me of Hartagolds Doodle

#4 I'd say without question that is certainly an APBT 

As far as size difference that happens, not everyone breeds to standard and some people breed for certain sizes. You have AST that are 40-100s and you also have oversized APBTs. While the AST ratio isn't as balanced so you typically get larger dogs, they are beefier and bulkier some people get bigger APBT. Although others mix APBTs with other breeds for giant size and still call them pure, so you must be weary of that.

well i WAS going to cross post part of a discussion in a working dog forum about this very subject. i asked the same question as well as asking why are staffies ok and pit bulls and amstaffs not?

that sparked a roiling debate that went seven pages.... but its gone now. some genius decided to make a Working Bulldogs Only forum so the admins deleted their bullbreeds section and all the posts with it... ARGH!!! 

 Darn they just wiped it all out!

DumDog

well i WAS going to cross post part of a discussion in a working dog forum about this very subject. i asked the same question as well as asking why are staffies ok and pit bulls and amstaffs not?

that sparked a roiling debate that went seven pages.... but its gone now. some genius decided to make a Working Bulldogs Only forum so the admins deleted their bullbreeds section and all the posts with it... ARGH!!! 

That's a shame, because I would be really interested to learn more on this subject.  I honestly thought AmStaffs were just an American version of "our" (UK) Staffordshire Bull Terriers, like you have an American version of the cocker spaniel.  It has the same origins, but it is a different breed in its own right (or so I thoght).  If this were not the case then how can Pits be banned here and not Staffs?  AND, is this stupid law going to start affecting Staffy owners here before long?

Chuffy

DumDog

well i WAS going to cross post part of a discussion in a working dog forum about this very subject. i asked the same question as well as asking why are staffies ok and pit bulls and amstaffs not?

that sparked a roiling debate that went seven pages.... but its gone now. some genius decided to make a Working Bulldogs Only forum so the admins deleted their bullbreeds section and all the posts with it... ARGH!!! 

 

That's a shame, because I would be really interested to learn more on this subject.  I honestly thought AmStaffs were just an American version of "our" (UK) Staffordshire Bull Terriers, like you have an American version of the cocker spaniel.  It has the same origins, but it is a different breed in its own right (or so I thoght).  If this were not the case then how can Pits be banned here and not Staffs?  AND, is this stupid law going to start affecting Staffy owners here before long?

Yes the APBT/AST is the American version. The bull and terriers (later to be named SBT) were brought to America from England and Ireland (mainly) these imported dogs were the foundation of the American Pit Bull Terrier. They have been bred to a different standard with ocean separating them so there is differences between them.

 
Well the laws are stupid is what I think. Some places ban all 3 (APBT/AST/SBT) as well as any "pit bull type" dog which leaves it open for the AC and officials to just decide what they want to consider a pit bull, be it an English Bull Terrier, American Bulldog, ect.

So they are different breeds now. The SBTs (although they were not yet given that name) brought here made APBT, the AKC registered APBTs under the name AST. 

what i think is weird and funny at the same time is according to AKC the Bull Terrier was was inducted in first (Nellie II in 1885 - on year before the english bulldog, named Bob) Then it was a Boxer (Arnulf Grandenz in 1904) then the Amstaff (Wheeler's Black Dinah in 1936) and then the Staffy Bull (Tinkinswood Imperial in 1974) 

of course i dont have a UK kennel club book... just AKC 18th edition.

but that right there is what sparked my debate with the working bulldoggers.i asked them who was the real deal and why so many of the "same dog".

memory is shoddy, but the majority of the people said they are the same dog in memory only. the TRUE dog is the pit bull. simple as that. call it what you will, APBT, bulldog, pit dog, but thats the one, like you said, Lurcher. thats the one that is true to type before KCs got their hands on it. THEN you got the others. pit type dogs existed all over the world but i guess they were refined in the UK. Some say the best came from Ireland. There was a time when people were actually taking American dogs and importing them BACK into the UK... because they were the real deal. and no need to ask what they were using them for. i think you already know.

now, in that forum i have seen pictures of staffy bulls where you would have a hard time telling it from an APBT. but these arent the show dogs. these are the working variety - some still used for illegal purposes, some for hunting dogs, ratting dogs, companions, what have you. same as we have here. game dogs. but they are Staffy Bulls. i wish i could show you their pictures.....  

From what I can make out, the Staff has a common ancestry with the pit bull, but the pit bull was deemed dangerous and banned and the Staff was not.  As a way of owning Pit bulls legally, a "new breed" was created (AmStaff) ....?  Possible?  Or do I duck the rotten vegetable and flame thrower now?

Picture 

Another picture

And another 

Chuffy

From what I can make out, the Staff has a common ancestry with the pit bull, but the pit bull was deemed dangerous and banned and the Staff was not.  As a way of owning Pit bulls legally, a "new breed" was created (AmStaff) ....?  Possible?  Or do I duck the rotten vegetable and flame thrower now?

 

Picture 

Another picture

And another 

They came from the same stock, the labels placed upon them have nothing to do with the actual dogs as it does with the AKV verus UKC. AKC said one day "Hey we dont wanna fight or dogs, we wanna show them" so they seperated themselves from the UKC. However breed standard was set by Colby's APBT, how funny is that? They even opened the books for 1 year to allow their precious staffies to be bred with pit bulls to adhere to the breed standard and then closed it after a year and shunned the pit bull,LOL.

Now you can see the difference in them becasue the pit is bred for gameness and athelticism and the staffy for show. Ok ok well amybe not now since the poor APBT has gone to hell in a hand basket but ideally speaking, LOL!

The only AmStaff I see is the one with the docked ears, but I am certainly NOT an authority.

And PLEASE, what is UP with that first photo?? Why does that guy have a WHIP?? 

Its a teaser used for bite work....not intended to harm the dog

badrap

The only AmStaff I see is the one with the docked ears, but I am certainly NOT an authority.

And PLEASE, what is UP with that first photo?? Why does that guy have a WHIP?? 

This is what breed the dogs are registered as...

1. APBT

2. APBT

3. AmStaff

4. APBT

 And they crack the whip to make sure the dog doesn't shy away from loud noises (and, when the dog gets more experienced, they use a heavily padded whip and hit the dog on the back with it, but believe me, I've hit myself with one and it really doesn't hurt at all.  The helper is definitely getting the worse end of the deal). 

please don't anyone here tell me that you truly think that doing "bite work" with an APBT is acceptable?? This is a breed that has been bred for decades NOT to bite human beings.. very specifically NOT to. They can be great working dogs, but guard dogs they are not.  They are talented and athletic, but let's not try and force them into something they were not designed to do..

And I don't know a whole lot about dog training, but in my world it is NEVER ok to hit a dog, or any other animal, with ANYTHING under any circumstances.  Sorry.

badrap

please don't anyone here tell me that you truly think that doing "bite work" with an APBT is acceptable?? This is a breed that has been bred for decades NOT to bite human beings.. very specifically NOT to. They can be great working dogs, but guard dogs they are not.  They are talented and athletic, but let's not try and force them into something they were not designed to do..

And I don't know a whole lot about dog training, but in my world it is NEVER ok to hit a dog, or any other animal, with ANYTHING under any circumstances.  Sorry.

I'm not sure I understand why training an APBT to do bitework is any different from training a German shepherd or Doberman pinscher or Rottweiler or... (the list goes on and on).  I'm sorry but I don't feel that judging by breed only is a correct way to judge a dog.  There are several German shepherds that I would never ever train in bitework simply because they have the wrong temperament.  And obviously there are several APBTs that I would not train in bitework for the same reason.  But simply because they are an APBT?  Why?  To my knowledge dog breeds aren't generally bred to go after people.  They are bred for the prey and defense drives they have.  People don't breed German shepherds to bite people or not bite people, its all about drives.  Any schutzhund dog I know doesn't just go around biting random people or trying to bite random people.  I think you just have the wrong image of bitework. 

My own dog (who is either an APBT or boxer mix, looking more like an APBT as he ages) is training in schutzhund and he is an excellent dog.  He would never be a good personal protection dog just because he has hardly any defense drive, but he has all the prey drive any dog needs for schutzhund work.  He can be on that sleeve and fighting with the helper one second, and be getting a pat from him the next.  He's definitely not a dog that goes around and attacks everyone. 

And as far as hitting the dog with the whip, I really don't understand what the huge deal is.  I mean seriously, when our dogs play together the body slam eachother into the ground, bite eachother, chase eachother down and roll one another, etc.  What is a little tap with a whip?  They don't even notice!  The purpose is to show that the dog is intent on what he is doing.  If you had a protection dog that let go and ran away if someone hit him with his hand or a stick, he wouldn't be much of a protection dog.

Workingdoglover

badrap

please don't anyone here tell me that you truly think that doing "bite work" with an APBT is acceptable?? This is a breed that has been bred for decades NOT to bite human beings.. very specifically NOT to. They can be great working dogs, but guard dogs they are not.  They are talented and athletic, but let's not try and force them into something they were not designed to do..

And I don't know a whole lot about dog training, but in my world it is NEVER ok to hit a dog, or any other animal, with ANYTHING under any circumstances.  Sorry.

I'm not sure I understand why training an APBT to do bitework is any different from training a German shepherd or Doberman pinscher or Rottweiler or... (the list goes on and on).  I'm sorry but I don't feel that judging by breed only is a correct way to judge a dog.  There are several German shepherds that I would never ever train in bitework simply because they have the wrong temperament.  And obviously there are several APBTs that I would not train in bitework for the same reason.  But simply because they are an APBT?  Why?  To my knowledge dog breeds aren't generally bred to go after people.  They are bred for the prey and defense drives they have.  People don't breed German shepherds to bite people or not bite people, its all about drives.  Any schutzhund dog I know doesn't just go around biting random people or trying to bite random people.  I think you just have the wrong image of bitework. 

My own dog (who is either an APBT or boxer mix, looking more like an APBT as he ages) is training in schutzhund and he is an excellent dog.  He would never be a good personal protection dog just because he has hardly any defense drive, but he has all the prey drive any dog needs for schutzhund work.  He can be on that sleeve and fighting with the helper one second, and be getting a pat from him the next.  He's definitely not a dog that goes around and attacks everyone. 

And as far as hitting the dog with the whip, I really don't understand what the huge deal is.  I mean seriously, when our dogs play together the body slam eachother into the ground, bite eachother, chase eachother down and roll one another, etc.  What is a little tap with a whip?  They don't even notice!  The purpose is to show that the dog is intent on what he is doing.  If you had a protection dog that let go and ran away if someone hit him with his hand or a stick, he wouldn't be much of a protection dog.

agree with all that.

i mean that to say..... well i'm biased lol ... i think the breeds designed for guard duty should be out there doing the job. and you make a good point, WDL.... man-guarding/man-stopping breeds have been designed to do just that.. guard/protect/defend. thats a bit different than sheep herding breeds that are ALSO NOT SUPPOSED TO BITE PEOPLE.

lets not be hypocritical.... 

ETA

as for the hitting..

you have to see how it works. its not BEATING the dog to make it submit. with a protection dog they have to be able to take punishment on the off chance that the perp tries to over power the dog - i saw that happen once and the dog quite after two hits which nearly cost the cop his life.

there is an obvious difference between the two. a dog trained properly in protection or Sch. should never cower in fear.