Best guard breed under 50lbs.

dum...I am talking about protecting your home...in your home...or behind a fence...a barking dog is not going to harm you unless you ENTER the home without being asked to LOL. A Chow hiding in the bushes waiting til you assume they don't have a dog and approaching to make a FedEx delivery>? errm...yeah. Gimme the barker.

rwbeagles

dum...I am talking about protecting your home...in your home...or behind a fence...a barking dog is not going to harm you unless you ENTER the home without being asked to LOL. A Chow hiding in the bushes waiting til you assume they don't have a dog and approaching to make a FedEx delivery>? errm...yeah. Gimme the barker.

lol i misread the oh well part about the kerry blue, i think you meant "oh well, thats your hide" right?

 sorry, i need to slow down a bit. i thought you mean "oh well, its just a Kerry Blue, big deal"

and yeah i prefer the barker - and that is from a home owners perspective. i dont want to lead someone into a false sense of security, even if they are up to no good. i like that people know i have big dogs because when they come up to our property they stop and back track once the dogs wake up from their naps and hear them and come running to the gate.

well.. Miki runs to the fence. Kaydee hangs out and barks, i dont know if she's just lazy, or knows she's big and bad lol but she's always been that way.. sort of like "Dont make me come over there... cause if i do.... ."

Interesting chat.

DumDog

Spicy_Bulldog

An American Pit Bull Terrier is to friendly to be protective and see a human as a threat that needs to be removed. My dogs would be more likely to leave with someone who was trespassing rather then attack them.

 

i agree, and again a good reason why pits arent considered good PP/guards by people who deal with them 24/7. in a pits natural setting he loves people and hates what ever target you train him to destroy. be it dog/hog/person or ball. if you say get it he will stop at nothing to please you.

He doesn't hate anything. If you want him to catch a hog sure he will, if he wants to fight another dog and you don't control him he will. Now if you have one that is prone to being HA or protective and you train them to attack then yes it could get very dangerous. You'd end up with a very badly mauled person because you taught the dog to attack and encouraged his aggression, then had no control over the dog. The reason they are not good protection dogs is because they are trusting of people and love them.  If you encourage their HA and train them to hate people then thats on you. If you train in SCH instead of teaching the dog to destroy or maim someone then they are good for it and exactly that they want to please you.
 

If you don't have your APBT trained in SCH then you don't have a dog that is even going to go through the motions,

not true.

Ok if you have a properly trained, socialized and bred APBT then they are not going to go through the motions. Believe me they will greet people who come to your home, strangers or friend. Without training they have no idea that they should be doing this or that. They are not naturally protective. I'm not saying that there are not exceptions to the rules untrained dogs of many breeds have been social butterflies but when a situation arose they protected their owner/themselves.

even a Pit trained in SCH is likely to only work in prey drive mode and see it as a game.

exactly, the prey thing is what makes me nervous about using a bull and terrier, or even a terrier type. they arent protecting you. they're hunting for you.

 Yes it is a scary fact for many. I find most trainers like to work with dogs that have a medium defense drive along with some low-medium prey drive. The prey drive can be hard to control, focus and harness if it is really high. Extremely high defense drive can also scare some trainers, as they are usually geared to be serious PP and guard dogs and not so much SCH or sport dogs and don't require much training, they require to be trained bite inhibition and what is or isn't a threat instead of sport training.
 

If you can get one to engage a human in true PP then you could have a protection trained APBT that will out on command.

but when they hit that frenzy - i dont know your experience just that you own them, but dont know if youve ever had one go into the mad frenzy when they get into a fight or excited over something - where nothing you say or do will penetrate their heads... i've seen it with pits, amstaffs AND american bulldogs. its horrible and scary and death often occurs whether that was your intention or not. Its the struggle that causes the frenzy to rip the prey apart. if some nutty homeless guy comes at you demanding something and your Sch. trained pit bull does his job properly then he's going to make the guy back off. if it results in the dog biting the man then obviously the man is going to freak out and try to get away or fight back. THAT is when the pit bull gets the reputation of locking jaws. I'm sure most of them out on command, but its not a risk i would ever be willing to take with a bull and terrier.

 Oh yes of course I've had mine go into fight mode. They are not all identical. Some have this, some do not. Having a dog instincts go into fight mode and training a dog to bite/out on command are two different things. If an APBT can be trained to stop fighting or not fight (a dog) on command then being trained to bite a human and stop should be much easier. Not all APBTs can accomplish this. Some will not have that type of focus because they go into fight mode and become "deaf" and don't feel pain either. They are in their own zone. That is why you chose the dog of proper temperament, you need to chose the right dog for the job. One with focus and sees it as a game, one that is very obedient and willing to please. You need the type that is very reliable 100% on their commands. SCH decoys most often don't freak out. They show some fight at times and different test and ring sports will have decoys do different things. If the person does fight back then yes the dog won't let go, thats what it is been trained to do. Thats with any breed so I don't think the Pit should be singled out when they do it. There are lots of APBTs that have done SCH successfully, they can out on command and are very obedient dogs when you have the right one.It isn't just B&T lots of Belgian Mals loose their out too. Again some of them are neurotic with very high drives, including intense prey drive. Some are retired for loosing the out. 

To me it isn't scary at all. It is more scary to have a real protection breed because they want to bite you. A SCH trained Pit wants the sleeve. You can tell the difference in these dogs. A prey driven Pit gets the sleeve and starts shaking it, yay I have my toy. A guardian/protection high defense breed gets the sleeve drops it and continues to want to get the man with fierceness.  They do not like strangers/intruders/threat to their handlers.

this also reminds me, years and years ago there was a show on tv - like americas most wanted i think - this woman was mauled by her own dog, a pit bull. she and her husband had this dog since it was a pup. for some reason her husband decided he wanted to kill his wife and let the reputation of  "mad pit bulls" take the heat.... he secretly trained this dog to attack on command. apparently he did it rather professionally and used a sleeve and other training implements. since it was so long ago that i saw this i dont remember all the details but pretty much he left the house (alibi) and came back to police cars and dead wife and bloodied dog. i dont know how he managed that...

there was some sort of clue or tip off that lead the police to test the dog... because to look at him he was friendly, loving, and happy to be around people...... until he saw the sleeve and heard the command. then he was a killer. as a result he had to be put down. i wish i could find that article...

That is very sick but interesting.
 

If people don't want to train their APBT, AST, ect for it then they really don't have a protection/guard dog and are better off getting a breed that is actually protective.

thats where a lot of people argue about their pits and amstaffs as protection dogs. they think because the dog wont let a stranger in the yard, or within leash length then the dog is protective. many people encourage that and they feel safe with a dog like that. the problem i see is...... they havent got a clue what that dog is really capable of.

so in short, trained or not, i'd never feel 100% with a bull and terrier as a protection dog. i feel like they'll either fail to protect and do the happy dance for the bad guy, or go overboard and shred someone just because they invaded my personal space.

 A lot of people argue about that their dogs period. That is most often fear aggression and the people encorage it. If push came to shove their dog would probably be a punk since the bluff didn't work. This does not matter if its a Pit, Lab, Poodle, ect. I see it a lot too. My dog is protective. Yeah Right. They don't recognize it for what it is.

 
I don't use them because they are not a protection breed. I feel get the breed that fits the need. I don' t have any worry of a properly trained dog of any breed with the correct temperament going overboard. Thats just me. I wouldn't allow it to happen myself anyway.

Very interesting Chat! i'm having fun talking to you lol  

Interesting chat.

An American Pit Bull Terrier is to friendly to be protective and see a human as a threat that needs to be removed. My dogs would be more likely to leave with someone who was trespassing rather then attack them.

i agree, and again a good reason why pits arent considered good PP/guards by people who deal with them 24/7. in a pits natural setting he loves people and hates what ever target you train him to destroy. be it dog/hog/person or ball. if you say get it he will stop at nothing to please you.

He doesn't hate anything. If you want him to catch a hog sure he will, if he wants to fight another dog and you don't control him he will. Now if you have one that is prone to being HA or protective and you train them to attack then yes it could get very dangerous. You'd end up with a very badly mauled person because you taught the dog to attack and encouraged his aggression, then had no control over the dog. The reason they are not good protection dogs is because they are trusting of people and love them.  If you encourage their HA and train them to hate people then thats on you. If you train in SCH instead of teaching the dog to destroy or maim someone then they are good for it and exactly that they want to please you. 

i guess i shouldnt have used "hate" because dogs dont hate, as you said. but with any hunting breed there is a recognised quarry and when its time to work thats the thing they will seek out.
 

If you don't have your APBT trained in SCH then you don't have a dog that is even going to go through the motions,

not true.

Ok if you have a properly trained, socialized and bred APBT then they are not going to go through the motions. Believe me they will greet people who come to your home, strangers or friend. Without training they have no idea that they should be doing this or that. They are not naturally protective. I'm not saying that there are not exceptions to the rules untrained dogs of many breeds have been social butterflies but when a situation arose they protected their owner/themselves.

i'm not arguing with YOU personally but thats where i get confused. are we talking about a dog or a thing? all dogs have a protective instinct right? all dogs are territorial to an extent arent they? some (within one breed) might be more so than others. my cousin has a APBT named Z that is an awesome dog. i love this dog, he's beautiful and smart. and he is hopelessly devoted to my cousin. he loves people too, but as my aunt found out one morning.. you do NOT enter Z's house without knocking and waiting for his mistress to greet you. My aunt wasnt hurt, but she could have been. Z was asleep on the bed when she just walked into the house early one morning. she RAN out the door when Z roared at her and launched himself off the bed and came after her. Once my cousin was awake and calmed him down, sit, stay, down boy, quiet.. my aunt came back inside and he was all smiles and happy tail. So yeah he behaved more like American Bulldog.. or my GSD. but many of today's pit bulls are "secretly mixed" with american bulldogs to increase that protection drive. so how do you know that is what you have until he suddenly bursts through the door like superman and attacks your boyfriend when the two of you are just goofing off?

even a Pit trained in SCH is likely to only work in prey drive mode and see it as a game.
exactly, the prey thing is what makes me nervous about using a bull and terrier, or even a terrier type. they arent protecting you. they're hunting for you.
 Yes it is a scary fact for many. I find most trainers like to work with dogs that have a medium defense drive along with some low-medium prey drive. The prey drive can be hard to control, focus and harness if it is really high. Extremely high defense drive can also scare some trainers, as they are usually geared to be serious PP and guard dogs and not so much SCH or sport dogs and don't require much training, they require to be trained bite inhibition and what is or isn't a threat instead of sport training.

That is true. i have to be careful in specifying the difference between Sch and PP. one is fun and games and the other life and death. my bulldog b*tch is PP. no i didnt train her myself and i can only guess because she has a mysterious past. but she knows a LOT of the commands and routine for PP. i have a fascination with SCH and PP and have read some books on it, so when i got Kaydee i recognised her for what she was. The first day she was in our house she was already velcroed to my side. my husband walked into the door and she was on red alert, putting herself between me and him. she didnt attack or try to attack, but she let him know she was there and he'd have to go through her to get to me. Like i said though... this was the first day with her. she adores him now lol BUT - and a big But at that... She is an American Bulldog. that is their instinct to act this way. they are AMAZING PP and family dogs. sometimes i wonder late at night why they dont use AmBulls for police work rather than Shepherd types. The reason i say that is because i was watching a Reality Based cop show where a K-9 officer was being pistol whipped with his own gun by a bad guy. he hit the button to open the car door to let the dog out. the dog (GSD b*tch in her prime) came at the man, bit him and he whacked her a good one with the pistol and she ran off. The guy went back to hitting the cop, the dog came at him again, and he hit her on the head again.. this time she was gone. she didnt come back for more. The perp was backing up, aiming this gun at the cop, ready to shoot him,but the gun jammed. police issue what ever its called (9mm?) jammed. That gave the cop time to grab his back up pistol in the leg holster and he shot the perp dead. The dog was retired due to injuries that resulted in the fight. Now... Shepherds and Bulldogs are similar in some ways, but different animals in others. Shepherds, naturally - so i'm told- are used to push, or drive prey. they arent designed to engage and FIGHT them. Bulldogs are designed to push(they're drovers) AND to fight because they're BULLdogs. when you put pressure on a bulldog he's going to put it back on you. They have been equipped for centuries to protect man/beast/and property. so why are we using Shepherds? And that is NOT an insult to shepherds. please, no one get offended. like i said, its just something i wonder about late at night. i read Dave Putnam's book "Working American Bulldogs" and he's the reason i got into that line of thinking. True most perps wont fight back with a dog, 40lbs and up is more than they want to handle, but in the situation i just mentioned (it was all filmed through camera in the cop car too, not just a second hand telling on tv) that man aimed to kill the cop and the shepherd failed. sure getting hit on the head with a GUN is no picnic .... but only two tries and she was finished with him. The neat/scary/interesting thing about the bulldog is.... hit him as much as you like but he isnt going down. thats the whole pain tolerance thing. again.. BULLdog. not Sheep dog. but i want to specify American Bulldog, not pit bull lol

 

If you can get one to engage a human in true PP then you could have a protection trained APBT that will out on command.
but when they hit that frenzy - i dont know your experience just that you own them, but dont know if youve ever had one go into the mad frenzy when they get into a fight or excited over something - where nothing you say or do will penetrate their heads... i've seen it with pits, amstaffs AND american bulldogs. its horrible and scary and death often occurs whether that was your intention or not. Its the struggle that causes the frenzy to rip the prey apart. if some nutty homeless guy comes at you demanding something and your Sch. trained pit bull does his job properly then he's going to make the guy back off. if it results in the dog biting the man then obviously the man is going to freak out and try to get away or fight back. THAT is when the pit bull gets the reputation of locking jaws. I'm sure most of them out on command, but its not a risk i would ever be willing to take with a bull and terrier.

 Oh yes of course I've had mine go into fight mode. They are not all identical. Some have this, some do not. Having a dog instincts go into fight mode and training a dog to bite/out on command are two different things. If an APBT can be trained to stop fighting or not fight (a dog) on command then being trained to bite a human and stop should be much easier. Not all APBTs can accomplish this. Some will not have that type of focus because they go into fight mode and become "deaf" and don't feel pain either. They are in their own zone. That is why you chose the dog of proper temperament, you need to chose the right dog for the job. One with focus and sees it as a game, one that is very obedient and willing to please. You need the type that is very reliable 100% on their commands. SCH decoys most often don't freak out. They show some fight at times and different test and ring sports will have decoys do different things. If the person does fight back then yes the dog won't let go, thats what it is been trained to do. Thats with any breed so I don't think the Pit should be singled out when they do it. There are lots of APBTs that have done SCH successfully, they can out on command and are very obedient dogs when you have the right one.It isn't just B&T lots of Belgian Mals loose their out too. Again some of them are neurotic with very high drives, including intense prey drive. Some are retired for loosing the out. 

To me it isn't scary at all. It is more scary to have a real protection breed because they want to bite you. A SCH trained Pit wants the sleeve. You can tell the difference in these dogs. A prey driven Pit gets the sleeve and starts shaking it, yay I have my toy. A guardian/protection high defense breed gets the sleeve drops it and continues to want to get the man with fierceness.  They do not like strangers/intruders/threat to their handlers. 

again thats the difference in PP and Sch. i own the PP kind and i KNOW what they're after. i havent got a single doubt about what their intentions are if someone steps out of line. But my problem with training a pit bull for protection..... how do you know he wont revert back to people lover? there was another thread that mentioned a man who holed himself up in his house, cops surrounding the place. said something about "go away or i'll sic my dog on you!" .. he turned his pit bull loose on the cops and it ran up to them wagging its tail and licking the cops. i'm sure that man had it in his head that his dog was going to do some damage before being shot to death. but it didnt... i dont know if he had this dog trained or just assumed.... i still think its a funny story and typical of what people believe their dog can do vs was their dog WILL do.

If people don't want to train their APBT, AST, ect for it then they really don't have a protection/guard dog and are better off getting a breed that is actually protective. thats where a lot of people argue about their pits and amstaffs as protection dogs. they think because the dog wont let a stranger in the yard, or within leash length then the dog is protective. many people encourage that and they feel safe with a dog like that. the problem i see is...... they havent got a clue what that dog is really capable of.

so in short, trained or not, i'd never feel 100% with a bull and terrier as a protection dog. i feel like they'll either fail to protect and do the happy dance for the bad guy, or go overboard and shred someone just because they invaded my personal space. 

 A lot of people argue about that their dogs period. That is most often fear aggression and the people encorage it. If push came to shove their dog would probably be a punk since the bluff didn't work. This does not matter if its a Pit, Lab, Poodle, ect. I see it a lot too. My dog is protective. Yeah Right. They don't recognize it for what it is.

i totally agree but those who might confuse Sch. with PP assume the Sch dog is protective(maybe he is naturally? American bulldog for example.. great Sch. AND naturally protective). i have noticed that people wanting a protective dog - no one in this thread though - dont want the extra work that goes into it. its night and day when you compare a dog that is protective to a dog that just wants a piece of your arm. and when you have a hunting breed that is trained to bite people on command then you have an iffy situation and never 100% sure what he might do(i'm talking about PP now). hunting dogs should be left to hunt.. they were never intended to bite people and i cant fathom why anyone would ask them to do such a thing.

 
I don't use them because they are not a protection breed. I feel get the breed that fits the need. I don' t have any worry of a properly trained dog of any breed with the correct temperament going overboard. Thats just me. I wouldn't allow it to happen myself anyway.
 

well, lol its been my experience that, to put it simply and use an old saying "But i thought the gun wasnt loaded"....  with animals you never know what they're going to do. i know my dogs pretty well and have so far accurately guessed their reactions. with my one bully, if i can imagine her doing it (like climbing a six foot fence) then she CAN and WILL do it. and if i imagine her doing it, and shrug it off then she's just climbed that six foot fence and is now chasing after me because she doesnt want to be without me. thats something i cant get my husband, or other people, to realise about their dogs. True a well trained dog is less of a liability than an untrained one, undisputed.... but there is still that itty bitty chance that your dog is having a bad day. as much as i trust my dogs i will never leave my kids alone with them. even though my boys play with these dogs, rough house, climb all over them... that only happens when i'm there. and i am on top of them the whole time. you just never ever know.

and same with my bulldog b*tch. she is great off leash. doesnt leave my sight. comes when i call her. but its rare that we do the offleash thing unless i know there is no chance of running into people. and if people do happen to show up, i call her to me and leash her. We were at the river a few weeks ago with her - my cousin, me, her three kids and the dog. these men showed up and were just walking around - kinda weird like. they werent dressed for swimming - i take her to the river for work outs since she's hurt her back.... while i was busy getting her into the water to swim one of the guys wades in and is coming towards us. i dont know if he was going to help me lift her, or what, but she wasnt having it. she turned and growled at him and he backed up, wavered a bit, then left with his friend. Kaydee is my best judge of people though. some can come up and she'll greet them happily, others can do the same and she'll change. she gets serious and alert and wont take her eyes off them. its those people i keep an eye on. but she's never gone after someone unprovoked just because she was on "red alert"

owning a PP dog is serious business..... 

Yes this is fun, we must be dog nerds..lol Hopefully my post will make sense, I'm running on little sleep.

DumDog

Very interesting Chat! i'm having fun talking to you lol  

Interesting chat.

An American Pit Bull Terrier is to friendly to be protective and see a human as a threat that needs to be removed. My dogs would be more likely to leave with someone who was trespassing rather then attack them.

i agree, and again a good reason why pits arent considered good PP/guards by people who deal with them 24/7. in a pits natural setting he loves people and hates what ever target you train him to destroy. be it dog/hog/person or ball. if you say get it he will stop at nothing to please you.

He doesn't hate anything. If you want him to catch a hog sure he will, if he wants to fight another dog and you don't control him he will. Now if you have one that is prone to being HA or protective and you train them to attack then yes it could get very dangerous. You'd end up with a very badly mauled person because you taught the dog to attack and encouraged his aggression, then had no control over the dog. The reason they are not good protection dogs is because they are trusting of people and love them.  If you encourage their HA and train them to hate people then thats on you. If you train in SCH instead of teaching the dog to destroy or maim someone then they are good for it and exactly that they want to please you. 

i guess i shouldnt have used "hate" because dogs dont hate, as you said. but with any hunting breed there is a recognised quarry and when its time to work thats the thing they will seek out.

Well I guess it should be noted it depends on the dog. If the dog is going into hunt/fight mode then yes, protecting against a human is the same thing or at least the dog has the same idea in its head. That is where you could possibly have an uncontrollable dog. With training though the dog is running on a different mind set if that makes sense.

If you don't have your APBT trained in SCH then you don't have a dog that is even going to go through the motions,

not true.

Ok if you have a properly trained, socialized and bred APBT then they are not going to go through the motions. Believe me they will greet people who come to your home, strangers or friend. Without training they have no idea that they should be doing this or that. They are not naturally protective. I'm not saying that there are not exceptions to the rules untrained dogs of many breeds have been social butterflies but when a situation arose they protected their owner/themselves.

i'm not arguing with YOU personally but thats where i get confused. are we talking about a dog or a thing? all dogs have a protective instinct right? all dogs are territorial to an extent arent they? some (within one breed) might be more so than others. my cousin has a APBT named Z that is an awesome dog. i love this dog, he's beautiful and smart. and he is hopelessly devoted to my cousin. he loves people too, but as my aunt found out one morning.. you do NOT enter Z's house without knocking and waiting for his mistress to greet you. My aunt wasnt hurt, but she could have been. Z was asleep on the bed when she just walked into the house early one morning. she RAN out the door when Z roared at her and launched himself off the bed and came after her. Once my cousin was awake and calmed him down, sit, stay, down boy, quiet.. my aunt came back inside and he was all smiles and happy tail. So yeah he behaved more like American Bulldog.. or my GSD. but many of today's pit bulls are "secretly mixed" with american bulldogs to increase that protection drive. so how do you know that is what you have until he suddenly bursts through the door like superman and attacks your boyfriend when the two of you are just goofing off?

APBTs have a low territorial/defense drive and are not very protective. Of course not all dogs meet up with the correct temperament, this is true of Labs, I saw someone on another forum say Labs make great guard dogs, or their Lab is very protective of the yard, their Lab won't let anyone near them when walking on a leash, ect, ect. HA in Labs is just as much a fault as it is in APBTs. But no doubt there are some Labs that are protective or aggressive even if they should not be. Those people will argue that Labs are in fact protective, well truth is yes some are but they are not typical or don't represent the correct temperament which is why the people who breed to the standard and been in Labs along time will argue back that they make ok watch dogs but are not guard/protection dogs. Same with the APBT.

Your cousins dog does not show the welcoming attitude that is natural to the APBT. I'm not saying anything bad about Z, so please don't take offense. What bloodlines is he? You think he is one that is mixed? If we are dealing with APBT/AB line of dogs, even if they are called Pits they are really not APBTs they are in fact APBT with AB mixed in for size/build/protectiveness or whatever reason. It is funny because I was going to mention in my last post about people coming, actually started to but didn't want to make the post long. Z's correct response would have been to welcome the guest as that is just their nature. He might not have the APBT temperament and sounds more like he has a temperament closer to some guardian breeds. Protective against uninvited guest but fine when properly introduced. It is just how some are due to yeah mix breeding, improper breeding. I don't want to say anything bad about Z's breeding and I have no idea, maybe he did come from a very good breeder. This sounds like the temperament of American Bullies too, some of them are very friendly to you when they know you and are introduced, but other times will be protective. I have a friend with AmBullies, I left my purse in their bedroom and needed to retrieve it. There daughter was in there laying down along with one of their dogs. I opened the door and you better believe I shut it damn quick when I saw that dog look up. Not to say he would have attacked but he seems more protective type (as many AmBullies are, some have bred for this trait, taking out some DA and breeding in HA and also crossing to AmBulldogs, Olde English Bulldoggue, Neo Mastiff, Bordeaux, ect). The dog doesn't out right scare me and I'm good at reading body language but yes he's barked at me and growled in a menacing type of way when I've approached his house door or kennel, so I'm not going to risk it when "his" girl is in his house with him.

My dogs love meeting people and will greet them happily. I've had people in my yard/home when I'm not there on many occasions. The UPS man loves my dogs. He will come inside and drop the packages into my home instead of leaving them on the porch without me knowing with dogs greeting him at the door. I never know he has been here unless I hear him shut my front door hard or if I'm down here (on PC) and see him on the security monitor. The dogs don't try to protect against this announced intruder.

My in laws or dog sitter come here without me being home and of course let them right in. One particular time I had a female with newborn pups,  my in laws and dog sitter would come to take care of her at different times so she/the pups would receive care 3xs a day. (I was in the hospital, DH took some time off work and also had to work too so that is why they needed care by others in the day and he would come home in the eve). So the female let someone they barely know take her pups out, clean the bedding, take her potty and feed her, ect. Basically the human was no threat to her pups and while I'm sure she'd protect her pups if needed she doesn't have an ounce of protectiveness when it comes to humans.

One person came that they had never met, I was not home. Others the dogs have met a few times come here to pick things up that belong to them or to barrow something. A few people the dogs haven't met have also come to take care of them. Other times there have been situations like you describe with Z but my dogs didn't have that sort of reaction. I came to realize someone was there when they were calling out and found them with a Pit Bull(s) trying to wiggle all over them.

I do find that Pit Bulls are more likely to show protective traits of their people rather then property, but this in only in situations with threats. Not say simply an unannounced guest. I have one that put himself between me and others, he did the same at his previous owners home, he loves women (and children) he likes men too, loves my DH but has a huge attachment to women so will just step in front of them and someone who is acting truly threatening. Otherwise he is happy social guy, greets anyone with kissing and a wagging butt at the shows. If they come here he is the same as the others. There was a news story where a Pit helped nab a guy due to the guy getting bit and their blood being on the Pit (so DNA connected the guy). Interesting story as I read as the intruder was already in the home (stealing it seems) with the Pit without incident, however when the home owner returned and he attempted to assualt her the Pit bit the guy. My friend had a Pit, I went into his home on many occasions with the dog loose in the house to get things that belonged to me or drop something for him that I had. The dog friendly and welcoming. Many other people were the same way, he practically had an open door policy. One night he had a confrontation with another man. His very friendly dog stepped in front of the other guy hold him from moving forward, with the guy yelling to call the dog off and still cursing the dog got more confrotation right back, backing the guy up all the way to his car with his muzzle. Had the person been behaving normally he would have been treated like anyone else, which he was to begin with, greeted with a happy dog. Then he got loud and upset so the dog stepped in. Things like this we can expect from even human friendly breeds if something starts to go sour. On the other hand dogs that are bred for human friendly temperament and not protectiveness shouldn't show that same drive that guardian breeds do. Basically Z's actions is very similar to that of my guardian breeds. Their reaction is that way if guest hasn't been introduced, even after introduction depending on breed/individual temperament they will either be ok with this person, they're friends for now or totally aloof and reserved. They will have nothing to do with them and only watch but will not be aggressive/protective like they would if not introduced at all. 

Basically though due to their breeding they are very people friendly, it was required of them to basically "love" anyone and trust humans due to a number of reasons.
 

even a Pit trained in SCH is likely to only work in prey drive mode and see it as a game.
exactly, the prey thing is what makes me nervous about using a bull and terrier, or even a terrier type. they arent protecting you. they're hunting for you.
 Yes it is a scary fact for many. I find most trainers like to work with dogs that have a medium defense drive along with some low-medium prey drive. The prey drive can be hard to control, focus and harness if it is really high. Extremely high defense drive can also scare some trainers, as they are usually geared to be serious PP and guard dogs and not so much SCH or sport dogs and don't require much training, they require to be trained bite inhibition and what is or isn't a threat instead of sport training.

That is true. i have to be careful in specifying the difference between Sch and PP. one is fun and games and the other life and death. my bulldog b*tch is PP. no i didnt train her myself and i can only guess because she has a mysterious past. but she knows a LOT of the commands and routine for PP. i have a fascination with SCH and PP and have read some books on it, so when i got Kaydee i recognised her for what she was. The first day she was in our house she was already velcroed to my side. my husband walked into the door and she was on red alert, putting herself between me and him. she didnt attack or try to attack, but she let him know she was there and he'd have to go through her to get to me. Like i said though... this was the first day with her. she adores him now lol BUT - and a big But at that... She is an American Bulldog. that is their instinct to act this way. they are AMAZING PP and family dogs. sometimes i wonder late at night why they dont use AmBulls for police work rather than Shepherd types. The reason i say that is because i was watching a Reality Based cop show where a K-9 officer was being pistol whipped with his own gun by a bad guy. he hit the button to open the car door to let the dog out. the dog (GSD b*tch in her prime) came at the man, bit him and he whacked her a good one with the pistol and she ran off. The guy went back to hitting the cop, the dog came at him again, and he hit her on the head again.. this time she was gone. she didnt come back for more. The perp was backing up, aiming this gun at the cop, ready to shoot him,but the gun jammed. police issue what ever its called (9mm?) jammed. That gave the cop time to grab his back up pistol in the leg holster and he shot the perp dead. The dog was retired due to injuries that resulted in the fight. Now... Shepherds and Bulldogs are similar in some ways, but different animals in others. Shepherds, naturally - so i'm told- are used to push, or drive prey. they arent designed to engage and FIGHT them. Bulldogs are designed to push(they're drovers) AND to fight because they're BULLdogs. when you put pressure on a bulldog he's going to put it back on you. They have been equipped for centuries to protect man/beast/and property. so why are we using Shepherds? And that is NOT an insult to shepherds. please, no one get offended. like i said, its just something i wonder about late at night. i read Dave Putnam's book "Working American Bulldogs" and he's the reason i got into that line of thinking. True most perps wont fight back with a dog, 40lbs and up is more than they want to handle, but in the situation i just mentioned (it was all filmed through camera in the cop car too, not just a second hand telling on tv) that man aimed to kill the cop and the shepherd failed. sure getting hit on the head with a GUN is no picnic .... but only two tries and she was finished with him. The neat/scary/interesting thing about the bulldog is.... hit him as much as you like but he isnt going down. thats the whole pain tolerance thing. again.. BULLdog. not Sheep dog. but i want to specify American Bulldog, not pit bull lol

 Yes I saw that same show. Thank goodness the gun jammed. We must also remember that not all Shepherds are equal just as all bulldogs are not either. Some GSD will run away others would have attacked and fought back, but mostly it is not in them especially without their handler backing them up. They are not typically supposed to fight and protect the handler so much as they are just supposed to bite and briefly hold a perp for brief amount of time while the officer comes to subdue the bad guy. However some ABs and APBTs would be smacked and run the hell away. So I think it depends on the quality. Although I believe a bulldog can take a hell of a lot more if needed. GSDs were never meant to be hardcore protective or fighting dogs. They are more sport oriented anyway, not that some don't make great PP dogs with the right amount of real life situation training but there are lots of PDs that only do similar training to sport work so they only get those results. Even then most shepherd breeds are sport oriented.

There is an officer here that has a Pit and I've read of some others. There is another officer with an AB and EB (loves my dogs too) but his are not K9 Officers like the Pit just his pets. I've thought of training and donating a dog myself, but mine would probably just be narco dog and not patrol dog like this one.

If you can get one to engage a human in true PP then you could have a protection trained APBT that will out on command.
but when they hit that frenzy - i dont know your experience just that you own them, but dont know if youve ever had one go into the mad frenzy when they get into a fight or excited over something - where nothing you say or do will penetrate their heads... i've seen it with pits, amstaffs AND american bulldogs. its horrible and scary and death often occurs whether that was your intention or not. Its the struggle that causes the frenzy to rip the prey apart. if some nutty homeless guy comes at you demanding something and your Sch. trained pit bull does his job properly then he's going to make the guy back off. if it results in the dog biting the man then obviously the man is going to freak out and try to get away or fight back. THAT is when the pit bull gets the reputation of locking jaws. I'm sure most of them out on command, but its not a risk i would ever be willing to take with a bull and terrier.

 Oh yes of course I've had mine go into fight mode. They are not all identical. Some have this, some do not. Having a dog instincts go into fight mode and training a dog to bite/out on command are two different things. If an APBT can be trained to stop fighting or not fight (a dog) on command then being trained to bite a human and stop should be much easier. Not all APBTs can accomplish this. Some will not have that type of focus because they go into fight mode and become "deaf" and don't feel pain either. They are in their own zone. That is why you chose the dog of proper temperament, you need to chose the right dog for the job. One with focus and sees it as a game, one that is very obedient and willing to please. You need the type that is very reliable 100% on their commands. SCH decoys most often don't freak out. They show some fight at times and different test and ring sports will have decoys do different things. If the person does fight back then yes the dog won't let go, thats what it is been trained to do. Thats with any breed so I don't think the Pit should be singled out when they do it. There are lots of APBTs that have done SCH successfully, they can out on command and are very obedient dogs when you have the right one.It isn't just B&T lots of Belgian Mals loose their out too. Again some of them are neurotic with very high drives, including intense prey drive. Some are retired for loosing the out. 

To me it isn't scary at all. It is more scary to have a real protection breed because they want to bite you. A SCH trained Pit wants the sleeve. You can tell the difference in these dogs. A prey driven Pit gets the sleeve and starts shaking it, yay I have my toy. A guardian/protection high defense breed gets the sleeve drops it and continues to want to get the man with fierceness.  They do not like strangers/intruders/threat to their handlers. 

again thats the difference in PP and Sch. i own the PP kind and i KNOW what they're after. i havent got a single doubt about what their intentions are if someone steps out of line. But my problem with training a pit bull for protection..... how do you know he wont revert back to people lover? there was another thread that mentioned a man who holed himself up in his house, cops surrounding the place. said something about "go away or i'll sic my dog on you!" .. he turned his pit bull loose on the cops and it ran up to them wagging its tail and licking the cops. i'm sure that man had it in his head that his dog was going to do some damage before being shot to death. but it didnt... i dont know if he had this dog trained or just assumed.... i still think its a funny story and typical of what people believe their dog can do vs was their dog WILL do.

Yeah totally different thing. I think some people don't understand that. I really don't think they are that suitable for protection training. Although I wouldn't use that example that they could/would revert back. It is likely that the dog wasn't trained. I have no clue but I doubt it as most people like that think Pits are going to be big bad guard dogs and are in for a rude surprise. Just as you have people who believe the myths and fear Pit Bulls for the bad reputation, you also have people who want them for this and believe the myths and hype. Pit Bulls are natural born killers, they are aggressive, great guard dogs, fierce attack dog with locking jaws, they believe that and actually want one for that reason as crazy as that is. So they get a Pit and it is just as friendly as the next. They expect it to grow into their terrible aggressive dog and it just grows into a friendly dog who wants to so meet people. Some are abused and beaten because of this. There are people in this area who get Pits because of reasons like that, when they raid a drug house they find friendly Pits that were supposed to guard their stash. I've also seen it on episodes of swat where the team knows there is Pit Bulls and is concerned only to get there and be feeding/playing with the dogs who are anything but vicious. So the moron probably thought his dog was some scary guard dog. Maybe the dog even barked at people like any other breed and he encouraged it, which is just encouraging watch dog tendencies/alert barking and the dog not even HA as they thought. I see people doing that saying get em, get em, the dog is just barking not even in an aggressive manner but they think the dog is ready to attack.

If people don't want to train their APBT, AST, ect for it then they really don't have a protection/guard dog and are better off getting a breed that is actually protective. thats where a lot of people argue about their pits and amstaffs as protection dogs. they think because the dog wont let a stranger in the yard, or within leash length then the dog is protective. many people encourage that and they feel safe with a dog like that. the problem i see is...... they havent got a clue what that dog is really capable of.

so in short, trained or not, i'd never feel 100% with a bull and terrier as a protection dog. i feel like they'll either fail to protect and do the happy dance for the bad guy, or go overboard and shred someone just because they invaded my personal space. 

 A lot of people argue about that their dogs period. That is most often fear aggression and the people encorage it. If push came to shove their dog would probably be a punk since the bluff didn't work. This does not matter if its a Pit, Lab, Poodle, ect. I see it a lot too. My dog is protective. Yeah Right. They don't recognize it for what it is.

i totally agree but those who might confuse Sch. with PP assume the Sch dog is protective(maybe he is naturally? American bulldog for example.. great Sch. AND naturally protective). i have noticed that people wanting a protective dog - no one in this thread though - dont want the extra work that goes into it. its night and day when you compare a dog that is protective to a dog that just wants a piece of your arm. and when you have a hunting breed that is trained to bite people on command then you have an iffy situation and never 100% sure what he might do(i'm talking about PP now). hunting dogs should be left to hunt.. they were never intended to bite people and i cant fathom why anyone would ask them to do such a thing.

Yes that is what I meant by getting the breed that fits your need.

I don't use them because they are not a protection breed. I feel get the breed that fits the need. I don' t have any worry of a properly trained dog of any breed with the correct temperament going overboard. Thats just me. I wouldn't allow it to happen myself anyway.
 

well, lol its been my experience that, to put it simply and use an old saying "But i thought the gun wasnt loaded"....  with animals you never know what they're going to do. i know my dogs pretty well and have so far accurately guessed their reactions. with my one bully, if i can imagine her doing it (like climbing a six foot fence) then she CAN and WILL do it. and if i imagine her doing it, and shrug it off then she's just climbed that six foot fence and is now chasing after me because she doesnt want to be without me. thats something i cant get my husband, or other people, to realise about their dogs. True a well trained dog is less of a liability than an untrained one, undisputed.... but there is still that itty bitty chance that your dog is having a bad day. as much as i trust my dogs i will never leave my kids alone with them. even though my boys play with these dogs, rough house, climb all over them... that only happens when i'm there. and i am on top of them the whole time. you just never ever know.

and same with my bulldog b*tch. she is great off leash. doesnt leave my sight. comes when i call her. but its rare that we do the offleash thing unless i know there is no chance of running into people. and if people do happen to show up, i call her to me and leash her. We were at the river a few weeks ago with her - my cousin, me, her three kids and the dog. these men showed up and were just walking around - kinda weird like. they werent dressed for swimming - i take her to the river for work outs since she's hurt her back.... while i was busy getting her into the water to swim one of the guys wades in and is coming towards us. i dont know if he was going to help me lift her, or what, but she wasnt having it. she turned and growled at him and he backed up, wavered a bit, then left with his friend. Kaydee is my best judge of people though. some can come up and she'll greet them happily, others can do the same and she'll change. she gets serious and alert and wont take her eyes off them. its those people i keep an eye on. but she's never gone after someone unprovoked just because she was on "red alert"

owning a PP dog is serious business.....

To me I think you accurately know your dogs and breed for sure. A lot of people are not so great at it and not good at owning certain breeds. They can't read body language or gage what a reaction is going to be. Basically to me she sounds like a stable minded representative of her breed. 

DumDog

So yeah he behaved more like American Bulldog.. or my GSD. but many of today's pit bulls are "secretly mixed" with american bulldogs to increase that protection drive. so how do you know that is what you have until he suddenly bursts through the door like superman and attacks your boyfriend when the two of you are just goofing off?

 Ok yes my post was long enough but I forgot to answer the question and didn't want to go back and edit.

I know because I know my dogs bloodlines, as well as research the pedigrees and more often then not know at least some of the dogs in the pedigrees for a few generations. Some of the "pit bulls" are mixed, as mentioned in my previous post, thats true, but then many are also pure bred and not mixed with large guardian breeds. Back when I was breeding my bloodline I achieved several generations from that, so obviously I know whats in that, but on top of that I knew the dogs in the 5-7 generations previous to my own dogs, basically my dogs were descendants of those. One of the dogs back in the pedigree belonged to a family friend. When my father walked in their house unannounced with no one answering the door, that dog shot off the recliner he was sleeping on to lick and jump all over him. I went to take care of the dogs one time a couple were new dogs at the kennel that I'd never met before. One outside and one in the basement. They were cool with me coming to walk them and such without owner directly around but sleeping/resting due to illness. I know my dogs bloodlines and pedigrees well enough to know the temperament they should posses and what type of breeding they come down from. I'm not going to get a dog of "secretly mixed" AB bloodline (or anything else) unless I know about it, then of course it'd be no secret to me and I might expect that they'd show more protective tendencies. Although I wouldn't expect for my SO to be attacked from playing by any stable dog raised with us who knows the differences between rough housing and real altercation. Now all dogs are animals so no predicting 100% what they or won't do, however I feel I know my dogs and their lineage well enough to not be in for any surprises. 

The scariest personal protection dog I've ever seen/heard of was actually an APBT.  But I consider him a special case, as he was deliberately trained for personal protection to a degree that I hadn't imagined before.  (For instance, he was trained to attack if offered food - plenty of criminals have made it past guard dogs by using a good meaty steak - or a poisoned one.)

Our ACD is definitely the one to watch out for in our house.  He is the one most likely to not just bite, but tear into an intruder.  He defends his territory when we are camping, and reads situations better than most other dogs I've been around.  He's independent, but has a bond with my BF that makes them partners in ruling this "domain".  He's a new experience for me in dog ownership.

i've always been impressed ACDs. they seem like little demons lol i wouldnt want to cross one anyway. i guess because they are little, and quick and have a more intimidating glare than any other herding breed.... to ME. never heard of one for protection though. sure why not?

and.... wow.. attacking when offered food? that could be potentially dangerous, but maybe not. the dog is supposed to protect one person. and hopefully that person wouldnt ignore a situation of a little kid trying to offer a hot dog or something.
 

DumDog

and.... wow.. attacking when offered food? that could be potentially dangerous, but maybe not. the dog is supposed to protect one person. and hopefully that person wouldnt ignore a situation of a little kid trying to offer a hot dog or something.
 

 I think it would've been wiser just to teach the dog to ignore any food anyone but the handler gave him...but I guess it would depend on where the dog was living and the amount of contact it had with various people.

BTW, did anyone mention boxers?  Lots of the females are around 50 lbs...  I'm too lazy to go back and see if anyone did...lol!

to my knowledge they didnt. but it crossed my mind to mention them. they are basically the same thing as Ambulls... by way of Germany and AKC.... Boxer, i believe is a perversion of the German word Beisser... which means biter... (and i'm too lazy to check my spelling lol!)

so you have Bullenbeisser(bull biter)

here's a website 

i like the look of a German Boxer too lol they seem....meatier.. less deer like. but that may not be the goal if you're after a dog around 50lbs lol 

Attacking when offered food I think is unnecessary and dangerous. Unless the dog is to live as a full time guard dog, like some dogs, that is their only purpose. I simply train mine food refusal. You don't know if someone might think they are being nice by giving your pet a treat.

Good luck finding a Boxer that is of actual guard of protection quality unless you import from Europe. There is one kennel I saw in US with working Boxer and working bloodline. Most others don't have the drive, it has been bred out of them, they are more docile now and show dogs only.  

Spicy_Bulldog

Attacking when offered food I think is unnecessary and dangerous. Unless the dog is to live as a full time guard dog, like some dogs, that is their only purpose. I simply train mine food refusal. You don't know if someone might think they are being nice by giving your pet a treat.

i wonder about the personality of a person who trains a dog in such a manner as to attack when offered food. thats some extreme paranoia!! 

Spicy_Bulldog

Good luck finding a Boxer that is of actual guard of protection quality unless you import from Europe. There is one kennel I saw in US with working Boxer and working bloodline. Most others don't have the drive, it has been bred out of them, they are more docile now and show dogs only.  

and i agree here..... as a kid i used to love Boxers. i wanted one soooooooo bad. we couldnt have an Am.Bull or pit bull because of home owners insurance, but my mom never said no to Boxer.... she never said yes either. and by the time i grew up and moved out i just went ahead and got what i really wanted lol but i still wouldnt say no to a Boxer if given half the chance. 

i would LOVE to see someone revive the American lines for something more than snoring, farting, and good looks......wait........ ok only with bull breeds does snoring, farting and good looks all fit into the same sentence. but there ya go lol 

Spicy_Bulldog

Attacking when offered food I think is unnecessary and dangerous. Unless the dog is to live as a full time guard dog, like some dogs, that is their only purpose.

That is his only purpose and he is never around children.  His exposure to people is strictly controlled.  As I said, he is a particularly unique case of dimensions I'd never imagined.  Not a dog in the pet terms most of us think of our dogs.  He is loved and invested with tons of time, attention, training, etc.  He is just not a family pet.

I asked the (dumb) question - "but what about meal times?"  He has been conditioned to accept food only from his owner and/or only from a select few who have been trained to offer the dog his meal in the presence of the owner, for the first few times, before the dog acknowledges that it's ok to accept and not attack.

where does he work/live/frequent to need such a dog? you dont have to answer that if its too personal a question, but i still wonder.... why?

just to be different? 

It's not my place to ask him that question, so I don't know the answer.  But I know it's not "just to be different."