Aussies vs. Border Collies

    • Gold Top Dog

    Aussies vs. Border Collies

    If anyone read my last post in General Chat, I wrote there that I was considering getting a GSP puppy to show. I've changed my mind, however, partly due to the size of the dog, and have decided to either get an Australian Shepherd or Border Collie. I am wondering if anyone can help me decide which would be best for me, so here's a little about my lifestyle/ the dog I would like...having always had setters, I know what high energy dogs are like, though I'm prepared for the other dog to be higher energy than the setters. Right now, my dogs each get a 20 min. walk in the morning before school, free access to the fenced backyard when someone is home, another approx. 30 minute walk in the afternoon or evening which usually leads us to a small nearby park where they can run and swim. Fetch, frisbee, etc included. :P We typically go to the dog park 2x a week (although maybe more now that the weather is nice and summer is approaching) where there is a dog beach/swimming area and huge fenced play area.

     This dog would be a show dog, as well as in agility and/or obedience (and frisbee if I can find something like it around here). I would like this dog to be friendly obviously, and of course good with Cadie and Riley. I like dogs that are affectionate and enjoy contact. I'm not sure what else to say...anyway, if anyone has any suggestions or advice it is more than welcome! Thank you! : )

    • Gold Top Dog

    They're not too dissimilar in temperament from what I learned, but both require a crap ton of coat care for the show ring.

    Aussies seem to require more though, to get the ruff nice and full, and to keep their collars and feet white.
     

    • Gold Top Dog

    As you know I have an Irish Setter also.  I have had 2 Aussies. My first was a dream dog. She loved to please and was a very quick at learning new things. I got Splash when Samantha was 6 months old and she took up with her quickly. She wouldnt let Samantha out of her sight. She was real good with her and gentle. Someone stole her right out of my yard one day. She wasnt the type of Aussie that knew a stranger. She loved people.

    I got Jayde because I missed Splash, I love the Aussie breed, she was the color I wanted, and I was wanting a dog to play frisbee with and obedience. But all Jayde wanted to do was be petted and loved on. She thought to please me was to be in my face and want loving on. I didnt mind that at all. I knew Aussies are velcro dogs. I just couldnt get her to do any obedience besides sit and I wanted her to play with toys with me. She is now at her breeder's home with her mom and dad learning how to herd.

    With both Aussies they were great at having an on and off switch. Both were happy to sit at my side and do nothing for how every long needed. Both were always ready to go and tackle the day no matter how busy. They do have a lot of energy but it's so much easier to channel that energy into doing stuff besides taking them out for a run like the Setter needs.

    I dont know anything about Border Collies. But I love the Aussie. And I think you will too.
     

    • Gold Top Dog

     I've never owned a BC but have 2 aussies. I love the breed. Love it. I can't say enough about them. However, their personalities can vary a lot. Since aussies are naturally reserved with strangers picking the right puppy and early socialization is key to getting a dog that will love everyone. Rescues are great but I've had better experience with Neiko in that department than I have with Lily. I picked Neiko because he seemed very well balanced as a pup and I socialized him to death so he just loves ALL people. Lily on the other hand, came to me when she was 10 months old. She had not been socialized well and I'm having a hard time dealing with that now. She is not only reserved with strangers but she fears them and goes in to "offense is a good defense" mode. I don't like this AT ALL - even though I know she won't bite, it is still threatening to people who don't know her.

    Also, like Kle said - aussies either want to really work or they want to be loved on. I have one of each. Neiko wants to work. While he loves being loved on, he loves to work even more. Lily - she just wants to be loved on and doesn't really want to work. Training, agility, herding etc. are all a challenge and slow going with her. The opposite is true with Neiko - he picks up things in a matter of minutes and does everything with all kinds of enthusiasm.  This all goes back to picking the right pup. Don't pick the pup who just wants to sit in your lap but pick the one who wants to sit in your lap but also wants to investigate toys, play with its littermates, etc.

    As far as exercise requirements, I'm sure you'll be fine there but you will notice a difference in style and intensity of aussies. While running in the park with your dogs will physically tired an aussie out, that same aussie will still be wanting more - more as in a mental challenge. When I take my aussies to the park I also give them jobs like "Where's Dakota? Go find/get Dakota" and off they will go to find Dakota and show me where she is. I do the same thing with other dogs at the park "Where's Hugo? Go find him"....off they go to find Hugo and show me where Hugo is. Carry this stick....go find the ball....That kind of stuff. Anything to make them think they are working.

    BC's are the same way from what I've seen, but they use their eyes a lot more to show their focus and determination than an aussie so it's more noticeable.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I was under the impression that BC's really need a job to do or they will get into major trouble. Reading your schedule I would think you'd have to implment something else to keep  a BC busy. Also if you dont mind having a dog that will try and outsmart and condition you then a BC might work, LOL. I personally have a weird wonder about BC's. I am in complete awe of them but really feel as if a lot of times they are too smart for their own good, LOL......ok ok maybe just too smart for me

    I've known many aussies and blue heelers they seem to me to be a easier version of the BC's but I agree that their temperments and personalities vary a lot!

    Its definetely a tough choice! Maybe dont decide officially and go check out breeders for both.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    There is a huge split in Border Collies between working and conformation people, and lots of politics. Alot of BC people will tell you that breeding for anything other than working ability is ruining the breed, and that BC's should not be bred for conformation or sport...not that they should all go to working homes, but that working ability is the only true test of breed worthiness. I'm new to BC's myself and I was surprised to find this out, but it makes alot of sense to me. Someone else can explain it better than me, but it's something you should read up on and consider, if you are looking for a show dog I'd pass on the BC.

    That said, they are a great breed, not exactly what people think. Mine gets a similar amount of exersize as your dogs get, the only difference is our morning walk is longer. Shiner is a weird dog, he has quirks, he has energy, and he's up my rear all the time, but he definitely has an "off switch", and after everything I had heard about BC's, he's easier to live with than I expected.

    • Gold Top Dog

     You can read up on the AKC question here: http://bordercollie.org/akc.html  There is a much wider acceptance among Aussie people, whether working or not, of conformation.

    The problem is that the "ultimate test" of a great Border Collie, for as long as the breed has existed, has been the big herding trials.  Absolutely no attention was made to what Border Collies that were capable of achieving that working standard, happened to look like. 

    Oddly, most Border Collies all happen to look more or less similar - there's a ton of variation, yes, but the vast majority of them are pretty recognizable and distinct from other breeds.  The big thing is how a BC holds itself and acts - that's easy to spot.

    So, we say, why mess with a good thing?

    But, the AKC wants all breeds to be subjected to a conformation standard as well.  Cookie cutter dogs is the ideal.  Dogs that win at shows.  Not only dogs that look like the standard, but also look like winning dogs of other breeds.

    But if you take a very high-performing dog, and say, well, we'll only breed the dogs that look a certain way, pretty soon you don't have the dogs that herd the best, you have only dogs that look a certain way, and happen to herd.  Maybe. 

    If you are serious about Border Collies, I'd encourage you to look over at the Border Collie Boards.  There's a further discussion of why we believe what we do about breeding for conformation, here:  http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?act=announce&f=6&id=1  You'd be more than welcome to ask questions and read - and dream! 

    • Gold Top Dog

    I have two BC's and one BC/Cattle Dog mix.  All of them GREAT dogs!!!  My BC's are now two years old with the BEST on and off switches.  Oscar my mix is now 8 yrs and has been THE best dog we have ever had.  He recently passed his therapy dog test and knows when it is his turn to go to work!!  All my dogs are Frisbee dogs, when not playing disc, they will bring balls, etc to us to play.  My DH and I laughed, as in the winter months, when we were outside it was ALL play, then come inside.  Now that the weather is warm, we have to recondition them to "take a break"!!! 

    My breeder came under attack from the ABCA, because he started to breed for temperment, agility and family dogs.  These dogs still have "the eye", but they are better suited for today's society.   ABCA still thinks as BC's only as herding dogs!   Both my BC's are AKC registered, but after going to a major show, we decided that even though by AKC standards they were perfect, it just was not what we wanted to do!!  We needed to see them smile and have fun!!! 

    As for their coats, very easy to take care of, we brush a couple times a week and it really seems like the dirt just comes off of them!!  I love the herding breeds.  My Skylar is a BC red merle, who gets mistaken for an Aussie all the time until they see his beautiful tail!!!  I think my breeder breeds for tails!!  LOL!!

     They are definitely "Velcro" dogs", they only lay away from us after a round of Frisbee!!  Good luck!  Either would be great!!!!    

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Bordercolliemom

    My breeder came under attack from the ABCA, because he started to breed for temperment, agility and family dogs.  These dogs still have "the eye", but they are better suited for today's society.   ABCA still thinks as BC's only as herding dogs!   Both my BC's are AKC registered, but after going to a major show, we decided that even though by AKC standards they were perfect, it just was not what we wanted to do!!  We needed to see them smile and have fun!!! 

     Yikes - you certainly seem to have a couple misconceptions. First off BCs should be bred for temperament - working temperament which is a hige collection of different traits that make them suitable for being outstanding herding dogs. Some of the worst BCs I have known were ones bred to be "pets" or bred as sport dogs(such as agility or flyball) due to lack of an off switch, hyperactivity or alternatively with some pet bred ones lazy dogs who weren't easy to train. ABC is correct in their thinking that BCs should remain working dogs - if you don't appreciate their true working temperament, why would you want one in the first place? How do your dogs "better fit into today's society"? Second no dog is perfect according to AKC or any other breed standard.

     All that said it is great you love your dogs and are happy with them. I'm sure they are wonderful dogs :) Try to understand that the ABC is looking at the big picture for the breed.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Just to clarify: 

    My breeder came under attack from the ABCA, because he started to breed for temperment, agility and family dogs.  These dogs still have "the eye", but they are better suited for today's society.   ABCA still thinks as BC's only as herding dogs!

    This is the stated objective of the American Border Collie Society - which has remained unchanged from the beginning: 

    The objectives of this Association are to register, maintain and verify the pedigrees of Border Collies; and to promote and foster in North American the breeding, training, and distribution of reliable working Border Collies.

    We don't ask the AKC, which has the stated objective of supporting purebred dogs, to change its objective and register mixed breeds - you know, there's so many nice crossbred dogs out there today, doodles, cockapoos, etc - why should the AKC "attack" these breeders?

    And this is misleading:

    because he started to breed for temperment, agility and family dogs

    The ABCA has no interest, literally none, in what any person out there does with their ABCA registered dog, with a couple of exceptions, noted below.

    There's only two reasons for discipline from the ABCA:

    1. Abuse of dogs, or submitting deliberately fraudulent records
    2. "The ABCA is a working stockdog registry and believes that breeding for conformation standards rather than working ability is detrimental to the health and working ability of the Border Collie. Consequently dogs or bitches which have been named a "Conformation Champion" by a conformation registry are not eligible for ABCA registration, even if they otherwise meet the requirements for registration. The ABCA will de-register any ABCA registered dog or bitch should it be named a "Conformation Champion" after January 1, 2004, and will not register the offspring of any dog or bitch named a "Conformation Champion" after that date."
    So if after January 1, 2004, your breeder chose to finish the conformation championship of a dog or bitch in his kennel, contrary to the stated purpose of the ABCA (to maintain a registry dedicated to the breeding of working dogs), that dog was "de-registered."  The breeder himself would not have been disciplined - unlike the first point where the breeders face direct investigation, suspension, and expulsion.

    Note: The ABCA does not recognize any registry that promotes conformation showing of Border Collies. Consequently, registration with the American Kennel Club, United Kennel Club, the Kennel Club (UK), Federacion Cynologieque Internationale, Australian or New Zealand Kennel Clubs, or any such body will not be accepted as a basis for registration with the ABCA.

    Therefore, if your breeder chooses to use parents that are only AKC registered (even just one, such as a stud), then that litter cannot be ABCA registered.  This is not an "attack," since it is your breeder's choice to follow a path that is contrary to the mission of the ABCA - to promote reliable working lines of Border Collies.  The same thing would happen if someone with Jack Russell Terriers decided to use a Parson Russell Terrier stud - the litter could no longer be registered with either registry, because the AKC books are closed for Parsons.

    I'll say this again, the ABCA doesn't care what its members do with their dogs, as long as they act in an ethical manner and don't pursue a conformation championship with their dogs.  Heck, you can even do breed shows with your dogs, as long as you stop short of getting that title.

    Incidentally, on health issues, it is the ABCA, not the AKC, that requires yearly eye exams from its top breeders, will note OFA and CERF information on 5 generation pedigrees and in the permanent database, and was a major sponsor of the research that made the DNA test for CEA possible.  We are currently sponsoring research for genetic trends in epilepsy and to study the causes of a form of late-onset deafness.  We are very serious about health issues - how could a working registry not be?  Possibly people may imagine the working registry as a bunch of farmers, but in fact each member on the health committee is a PhD, most with their field of specialty being biological research.

    And please note this item:

    Cornell Gives ABCA Genetics Award

    On October 10, 2003, Sally Lacy, Chair of the ABCA Health and Genetics Committee accepted the Cornell University's Baker Institute's John A. Lafore Kennel Club Award on behalf ot the Association. This award is given in recognition "of a kennel club or breed-affiliated organisation's outstanding contributions to the advancement of canine health through their support to research and education.
    The ABCA has funded genetic research at Cornell since 1999. The award cites the ABCA: "We would like to recognize the Association's enlightened and active role in breeding. the Association's longstanding commitement is helping to ensure health for future generations of companion animals." 


    Our belief is that the best way to produce a dog with an all-around good temperament, ideal balance between athleticism and soundness, and an "off switch" that makes the dog suitable to be an active companion or partner in sports or work - is to continue breeding for the work that these dogs have always been bred for.  For 100 years this approach produced dogs that people enjoyed as companions, competitive partners, and of course top notch herding dogs - a dog you could purchase as a pup and know he'd be useful.  That last part is the treasure we are protecting fiercely - we will let nothing threaten that.  In doing so, it's the balanced dog that is bred, not "the most" anything, or "the best of all worlds" or "jack of all trades and master of none."

    • Gold Top Dog

    Dear AgileGSD,

    You know this is why I don't respond much to this forum.  It's very tough to write down thoughts without everyone taking them the wrong way.  I have NO misconceptions about what a BC is bred for, my dogs still have excellent herding skills, (gee, last time I checked their were not a lot of sheep farmers around)!  If you read my response, I said that my boys have excellent on and off switches.  I believe in keeping all breeds bred to still have the traits that they were meant to have.  The ABCA and the AKC have battled for a long time.  Have you ever been to an AKC show and saw the BC's, the show dogs tend to lack "the edge" that a BC is famous for.  I DO understand, but if you have not dealt with the ABCA, than please do not comment about that you do not know a lot about.  I have talked to them and they truly are a little over board, I know BC's who are active  herding dogs, but also do Agility, Flyball and Frisbee!!!  I have a lot of friends who own Non-herding BC"S--we all are very educated in working the mind of our BC's to keep them mentally challenged and very happy. 

    As for fitting into society, my boys are very socialized with humans, when we have people over to our house, they wait until they are asked to play---BC's respect humans and realize that we are their guardians and lifelong companions.          

    • Gold Top Dog

    I don't have a border collie, as they don't fit my lifestyle, but I for the life of me don't get the general trend of taking a dog and "breeding it down" to make a better pet. I respect the ABCA's stance.

    There are a lot of very cool dogs I will never own, because the match isn't right. I really think you lose something valuable when you stop making ability a prime concern.

    • Gold Top Dog

     

    Bordercolliemom
    Have you ever been to an AKC show and saw the BC's, the show dogs tend to lack "the edge" that a BC is famous for. 

    Exactly, and that edge is what many of us love about the breed. Without it you have a different dog all together.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Exactly, and that edge is what many of us love about the breed. Without it you have a different dog all together.

    I did  not mean that my breeder was down breeding the dogs, my dogs have the edge, yes, this is why we love the BC's!!  They keep us on our toes!!!  Truthfully, I was shocked when I went to my first AKC show to watch the BC judging. The  BC's did not look happy!  I think that people who own  BC's really don't look at what their dog looks like, it's the personality that we look at! 

    I truly am sorry for starting a discussion about breeders.  Bottom line is I really love all dogs, but if you are going to buy any breed you have to do your homework and make sure you have the lifestyle for that particluar breed.  We work from home, so our lifestyle is perfect for our BC's.  But trustme, if I am at the computer too long (or so my BC's think is too long) I will have a toy tossed onto my laptop!!  Funny thing is, it's as if they know we need to take a break!!!  LOL

    • Gold Top Dog

    You said your dogs still have herding ability.  Cool!  Where do you train (or where did you train?)?  I know lots of people all over the Mid-Atlantic and Midwest.  In fact, the National Sheepdog Finals was in Gettysburg, PA.  Did you make it there?  I didn't have a dog to run but maybe next time.  Here's the information:

    http://www.sheepdogfinals2007.com/

    Thousands of people were there to watch hundreds of North America's elite sheepdogs compete against each other.  If the AKC breeders would like to "put their money where their mouth is" they are welcome to compete also.  These trials are truly "open" - any registry, any dog, any breed.  Even pigs.

    It's a fact that with gas prices going up, labor getting expensive, feed prices making pasture raised livestock more cost effective than feedlot raised, there's more dogs working on farms, than ever - herding, guarding, and hunting.  Not just sheep farms - pig farmers, poultry growers, exotics, and of course cattle.  Here's the Cattle Dog National Finals information for this year:

    http://nationalcattledogfinals.com 

    The problem is that this is what the AKC wants people to think is the "ideal" Border Collie, as confirmed by participation in the "sport of purebreds:"

     

    While this is what the ABCA wants to protect: 

     

    The AKC line is that these dogs aren't capable of being "normal" - that bringing a dog from these lines is a disaster (or eaten couch) waiting to happen.  But in fact I know three people who live with pups of the above dog - in normal, suburban homes, and nothing's been eaten yet.  Think about it - how would we ever get work done if we had to constantly be making sure our high-strung dogs were not freelancing on the sheep or cattle?  An off switch isn't just "nice" when you breed working dogs - it's required.

    Here's some competitors in last year's finals at Gettysburg waiting quietly on their owner's ATV, for him to finish up with another dog, participating in a behavioral DNA blood draw clinic.

    Not my photo so you just have to follow the links:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/soloriver/1439812186/in/set-72157602159698635/ 

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/soloriver/1438952171/in/set-72157602159698635/

    It's usual at sheepdog trials to walk your dogs on and off the course with no leash.  A common sight is to see a loose dog laying quietly waiting, outside the porta-jon.  This beautiful and talented dog, by the way, would be disqualified on many points, as a breeding animal by AKC standards:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/soloriver/1438955223/in/set-72157602159698635/ 

    It makes no sense to cull such a dog from the gene pool, because his coat is too curly or his eyes not matching.  None whatsoever.  Yet this is what the thinking that the AKC wants us to learn from them.  Thus, we don't want to have any part of it.