why continue to breed APBTs and other breeds that can't do their original job anymore?

 It's an interesting question.  I don't think a particular breed should be allowed to die out.  Many breeds may have started for one purpose and then were found to be useful in different things and may have had other breeds introduced for different purposes.  I know my beloved Airedale's history isn't "pure", it, like most, was a combination of several different breeds looking to satisfy a particular purpose.  And what of the service, drug, cancer and therapy dogs now?  Will we start taking the useful cancer-detecting schnauzer and enhancing that ability by introducing say, beagle or bloodhound?  I think the evolution of the dog is an ongoing thing and every breed has some good things to contribute.  I'm not sure if there is a breed that was specifically designed to be "dog aggressive" or not (not really a canine historian here, hehe) but I'm sure that it is not the ONLY trait the dog possesses as I've learned from the pits I've met so far.

  I also think if we only bred for companionship traits, the dog world would be boring and small.  But that's just MHO.  ;)
 

polarexpress

...Followed by: "If a breed is only used for companionship and their original function is no longer possible, why keep the breed going? Why breed dogs for something they can never do? Why not let those breeds die out and let people buy dogs designed for companionship instead?"

Well, because that leaves onlly the Non-Sporting and Toy Groups to pick our breeds from.   

...So, my question to all of YOU is:  Do you have a breed that outlived its original purpose? and/or Do you think any breed should be allowed to die out?

Considering the split in the Lab breed (field and bench), no, my breed hasn't outlived it's original purpose.  Hhmm- then again, they were originally used to pull fishermen's nets in so maybe the answer is Yes.  A world without Labs, not for me.  :)

Xerxes

 Do I think they should be allowed to die out?  It is my personal opinion that if a dog breed does not have the capacity to breed naturally, without outside assistance, the type of that breed needs to be carefully rethought and careful planning should be taken to make it more capable to do so.

I must admit this is a particular issue with me as well.   I hate it when some one tells me thier breed needed to be AI'ed then  C sectioned and they celebrate a Natural Healthy litter??   If the Girl is so ferocious she can not be mated without AI then I think the reason for using her in a breeding program should be rethought !! If the breed is so over reconstructed it can not physically do the deeds then again how on earth would it have managed in the real world??  Push comes to shove if at the end of the world the dogs can not do it by themselves I don't see a world struggling to manage a few human survivors sacrificing limited means to allow a dog to breed. 

Bonita of Bwana

Xerxes

 

 Do I think they should be allowed to die out?  It is my personal opinion that if a dog breed does not have the capacity to breed naturally, without outside assistance, the type of that breed needs to be carefully rethought and careful planning should be taken to make it more capable to do so.

Great, great point. 

Spotnik

I think the problem with pitbulls is that they are still being bred for dog fighting all over the world. Also way too many people are back-yard breeding those dogs with fighters in their ancestry. If pitbulls were only bred to be good companion dogs, there wouldn't be a problem. IMO, political correctness in dog forums is going too far. People seem to believe that pitbulls will be always perfect dogs if you are this unspecified "good owner" who treats them with love. At the same time, if you are considering to get any other high energy, high prey drive, possibly dog-aggressive breed (german shepherd for example), you will be reminded repeatedly, how you should be dedicated in terms of training and how you should check the bloodlines etc. But if you rescue a pitbull, all you need is love.

Are you freakin KIDDING ME???

Go back and READ some of the posts about pitties here on this very forum!!!

Every single person here who handles one has warned those "in the market" that they're NOT FOR EVERYONE.  It has been beat into my skull time and time again by every person here, even though I have been preaching the same thing I'm being preached to about.

Yes, there are a lot of us here with pits and their cousins, and ALL of them are great dogs because we are ALL the elusive "good owner" you speak of.  And, yes, we will come to the defense of ourselves and our dogs if need be.  But make no mistake, NONE of us are under any delusion about what our dogs MAY be capable of, and we are all very, very careful and very, very responsible.  I need Love and a Prong Collar and Hours and Hours of Training and Crates when nobody's around and No dog park,.... I could go on and on.

 I couldn't say it any better than badrap!  I just want to add that either of my dogs could turn on a dime and shred my face.  I don't think the pit I'm falling for at the shelter is any different than the lab who's also stealing my heart.  They both have unknown histories, they both are sweetie peeties right now and they both need training, discipline, exercise and love.  Certain breeds have been highlighted in the news and used for wrong (IMHO) purposes and poorly bred but they are not so different than the poorly bred, badly raised cocker spaniel that bit my BILs face as a child and permanently disfigured him or the poorly bred, badly raised yorkie that bit my daughters stepmom in the face recently.  The difference?  Those 2 dogs continued to live and get away with their bad behavior after their bites and a pit would be labeled a "menace" and euth'd pretty quickly.  A dog is a relatively unpredictable creature and needs to be treated as such, properly trained and socialized, etc.  Certain breeds have certain predispositions, and I think enthusiasts of those breeds do their best to warn people about those predispositions and avoid having the dog placed in the wrong environment and ending up paying the price for people's ignorance. 

I don't have pits but I certainly feel for the breed.  I'm also afraid of them, so instead of jumping on the BSL bandwagon, I've gone and volunteered somewhere that there are LOADS of them so I can learn from the people who deal with them everyday.  Education is the key.  They're teaching me about pits and I'm teaching them what little I know about border collies (as in please don't place the cute fluffy dog with the kids who run and scream because most of them won't be a good combo). 

badrap

Spotnik

I think the problem with pitbulls is that they are still being bred for dog fighting all over the world. Also way too many people are back-yard breeding those dogs with fighters in their ancestry. If pitbulls were only bred to be good companion dogs, there wouldn't be a problem. IMO, political correctness in dog forums is going too far. People seem to believe that pitbulls will be always perfect dogs if you are this unspecified "good owner" who treats them with love. At the same time, if you are considering to get any other high energy, high prey drive, possibly dog-aggressive breed (german shepherd for example), you will be reminded repeatedly, how you should be dedicated in terms of training and how you should check the bloodlines etc. But if you rescue a pitbull, all you need is love.

Are you freakin KIDDING ME???

Go back and READ some of the posts about pitties here on this very forum!!!

Every single person here who handles one has warned those "in the market" that they're NOT FOR EVERYONE.  It has been beat into my skull time and time again by every person here, even though I have been preaching the same thing I'm being preached to about.

Yes, there are a lot of us here with pits and their cousins, and ALL of them are great dogs because we are ALL the elusive "good owner" you speak of.  And, yes, we will come to the defense of ourselves and our dogs if need be.  But make no mistake, NONE of us are under any delusion about what our dogs MAY be capable of, and we are all very, very careful and very, very responsible.  I need Love and a Prong Collar and Hours and Hours of Training and Crates when nobody's around and No dog park,.... I could go on and on.

Also wanted to add that the people responsible for placing pits (not breeders, mind you) are generally VERY careful about who they place.  The dogs are tested and observed and tested again.  If there is the slightest indication that there is an aggression issue, most are euth'd.  There's just too many good ones that need homes.  In high profile cases, sometimes the questionable ones will go to experienced pit rescues for possible rehab, but if anything, the publicity has helped to make sure that those who rescue and place "bully breeds" are making sure to only place stable dogs into experienced/educated homes.   

Spotnik

Because, you know, only the "bad owners" who are "mean" and train their dogs to fight have pitbulls that bite. Com'on, nobody ever heard that one before?

Dude. Seriously. You are on the wrong forum to go on like that*. Preaching to the choir and whatnot. We know.  

* Welcome! We're a great group of people in my ever so humble opinion. I think you'll find that we (on average) are pretty with it people.  

I own two German Shepherds, last year the number was three......their job has been to protect this property and the residents.....and they have been doing a very good job...something that comes natural to a GSD.......so, this breed has not outlived it's purpose....it really works in my situation, considering I live out in the country and at times I am alone with my dogs.......ahhh, I do want to add that the Husky/Chow mix is now getting more protective and watchful........which is fine with me.....more protection.....eh.....

badrap

  I'm sorry, but I am not in favor of the average citizen intentionally going out to a breeder and getting a specific type of dog unless they fully intend to utilize that dog for it's "bred" purpose.  I believe in shelter adoptions.  For that reason, I might argue "yes", most breeds should be allowed to evolve. (I choose EVOLVE and not DIE OUT";).  .

 And many pet owners don't want just any dog and there is nothing wrong with that. In fact it is GREAT when pet owners research breeds and choose one based on what will fit into their life, not just whatever happened to be at the pound that day. About half of my Belgian puppies have gone to pet homes, where people do not show them or use them for herding. Those owners didn't adopt a dog from the shelter because they didn't want just any dog - they wanted a Belgian Sheepdog and they wanted a puppy. For them Belgians are what fits into their lifestyle. Since they are the ones who will be living with the dog, it really isn't anybody else's business or place to judge why they choose the dog they did.

 I am all for suggesting purebred rescues or shelters as an option for some homes. And some people DO just want a dog, without a solid preference as to what kind. Some people want to have mixes and always will. Some people just want rescue. Those are great people to go to the shelter and pick the dog that they think will be the best pet for them. And of course sometimes dogs pick their people without the person having to go anywhere ;)

 My breed does still do herding, although not near as widely as BCs, ACDs, McNabs or what have you. Breeders so far have done a good job at perserving their working ability overall. I think breeds should be perserved, even if they are no longer needed for their original purpose. I don't so much believe breeds should be watered down to fit into more people's lives either. Often temperament traits are inherited together and if you breed to change one thing that isn't "desired", it can change stuff that is as well. My breed is not for everyone but I'd not trade them. They are intense, high energy, quirky and wicked smart. They are a huge part of my life though and they fit in well :)

I had an experience last night that in many ways is on target with this thread.  After all of my recent bragging about how my dogs are NEVER allowed to run ... of course Karma just had to kick me in the butt !! My daughter arrived home with 3 of the grandkids yesterday afternoon. The boys came straight in as is thier practice but Caity the 5 year old was in a meandering mood. Instead of coming straight in and shutting the door as she has been taught she left it opened and the 3 pups got out. The Raptors are 19 months old , about 65 and 70 pounds apiece and the boy Zion who at 11 months is a small horse nearly 80 pounds. they raced wildly down the street, zigging and zagging through yards , dancing and playing tag with each other. Rhodesians are wickedly fast , they run and sproink, bouncing along like Tigger on crack !! While it would normally have been only an inconvienence and minimal worry in the middle of the street is this teenager who apparently has family living in our little neighborhood. On the end of a tow truck sized chain is a 2 + year old Pitt about 65 pounds. Heavily muscled. The kid stopped and with out making an effort to collect the dog simply stood the heavy chain hanging at thier sides.  The Pitt watched as the girls raced towards him and I wanted to yell hang on , he targeted Caine the smaller of the 3 and waited for her to get closer. I truly believe ther would have been a fight had the other 2 not chosen that moment to tag her,  they were within 15 feet or so of the walking pair.  With the tag came a change in direction and once more they bounded off in a different direction , the Pitt tried to go after them but without great enthusiaism.  In my opinion aside from being a million percent in the wrong for allowing the dogs to escape the quality of the breeding and training produced a good natured threesome who were not interested in a fight, just some rowdy play. The Pitt while ready to fight my smaller girl was way too smart to want to take on a pack. RRs are notoriously tremendous fighters and we do our best to avoid ever having to see the proof of it.  The Pitt , I felt handled himself correctly , assessing the situation, picking the probable win and then standing down when the other two wanted to play/engage as well.  The real problem was the Teen. He stood there making zero effort to exert additional control over hi boy. He could have changed his posture or taken up the slack in the absurdly heavy chain. When we , my daughter and I caught up to the errant 3, she grabbed Zion's collar and I took Dreamer by the scruff of the neck and we began to walk past the kid. I looked at him and apologized if the pups had scared him or alarmed his dog and he snorted.  " You were jes lucky my dawg wuz in a gud mood" he claimed I stopped and met his eye,  "Yeah, my ol man said if I let him fight again we are both gonna get beat" this seemed funny to him.  I know I should have kept walking but sometimes.... I faced him and said ,"Honestly do you think your boy would have wanted to fight and more importantly would have won against 3 dogs ?"  " Heck yeah ! " He boasted, " Rip likes a gud tussle, and ya know he'sa  Pitt Bull dawg. They are the toughest fighters in the world, ya can't beat 'em off with a stick if ya get thier dander up" I did not try to educate him. I felt if I tried I would grab him by the neck and shake him.  Good choice, get an assualt on a minor charge while collecting my runaways. arrrgh ! As I walked away, My stomach twisted. Not out of fear, or even worry at the little moron, but with anger that his parents who dressed him in the latest availble hip hop style wanna be clothes and expensive sneakers had in effect armed the kid with a potentially dangerous dog. One who could easily kill or maime and instead of teaching him caution or respect he was hoping for fights. How very, very  sad,  This is the type of owner who will one day bring about the end of a decent breed. Faster than the gangs and dog fighters. At least they rein the dogs in and respect the power behind the animal.  But a teen from an upwardly middle class family with all the perks in life.... he will be the one to sic the dog on someone in anger or fear and the dog will bear the brunt of the fall out.

Sigh

Bonita of Bwana 

This is a good thread, with many interesting posts.  Here is my experience from both sides of the fence.  For many , many years, I have enjoyed owning and working with the WORKING breeds; pit bulls, Rottweilers, GSDs, schnauzers, etc.  I love their versatility, their smarts, their gregarious, easy temper.  They are easy to socialize, easy to train, easy to teach new things to if started off on the RIGHT foot.  I LOVE these breeds.

That being said.....the rest of the world, my community, and the past 3 I have lived in(all over the country), do NOT like my breeds.  Sadly, for the most part, even lots of people in the "dog" community cannot agree that a well socialized pit bull is probably a nicer dog to let your yorkie play with than an unsocialized border collie.  Sadly, far too many times at the dog park, or the agility field, or the training class, other "DOG" people will pick their dogs up, shy away, or ask "DOES he BITE?" as the first question when confronted by these breeds.  I have worked for years as a vet tech with many breeds, and can tell you, these breeds are not on the list of top biters by any stretch of the imagination.  So, what gets them there in the public's eye?  The MEDIA. 

At this stage in my life, now that I am older and wiser, I have decided to add a final dimension to my dog craziness...showing/promoting/improving a breed.  So, when deciding which breed, with all the BSL "bull", dogpanic, and general sad input I have received in the past,  I decided to research and get involved with a breed that was similar in working ability, so rare that it could use a hand with breeding, and here's the key: obviously cute and fluffy.

Is he ANY less likey to bite than my other 3; a rott, a pit, a schnauzer?  No.  He is used to guard and heard flocks, and actively competes in French Ring Sport in his own counrty.  Is it fair that NO one has asked me if he bites?  NO.  It makes me extremely sad, every day. 

 So, this is something for everyone to think about as we evaluate what breeds are used for and why.  All 4 of mine were HERDERS/guarders originally.............Rottweiler, Amstaff, Schnauzer, Berger Picard