Pomeranian V.S. German Spitz

Here's one thing though- just because the temperament makes a good pet, doesn't mean it should be bred, if that's not correct for the breed. Yorkies should be bold, outgoing, feisty, and strong little dogs. Even if correct conformationally, a shy dog shouldn't be bred.  

Mdog59

I know when a dog is being judged, the judge looks at the dogs expression, interaction with the judge, the way it presents itself in the ring, etc.  They look for that inner dog as well as confirmation. 

Yep.  The nice thing about GSDs is that their temperament and working ability is also judged during a conformation show (SV I mean, I'm not into AKC).  They have to do a protection demonstration and they are tested in other ways like being crowded together with people yelling and someone firing a gun overhead.  To pass the breed's survey they have to have working titles either HGH or SchH, the AD endurance title, a conformation rating of G or better, and a BH in obedience before being considered (and obviously would not have these titles if their temperaments and working ability were not up to par with the standard).  Again I'm talking SV, not AKC.  I don't think AKC conformation is really a true test of proper temperament, at least not for a GSD.  I don't know how other breeds test for temperament, but I'm glad with GSDs there are pretty good indications besides just AKC points or whatever.

I've never fired a gun near my dog but my gut tells me she would be gun shy. She is a very smart dog, very nice drives, great conformation, a wonderful pet, etc...but her temperament is a fault.  It is what it is.  She doesn't meet the breed's FCI standard and thus she will not be bred or trained in SchH. It doesn't make her a "bad" GSD or negate her very nice breeding, but I won't make excuses for it either and argue that her temperament is correct.

That was my contention in a number of earlier posts.  That is my concern about the supposed honor having an AKC registration  seems to bestow in some peoples minds.  I'm not sure what the answer is.  AKC reps can't go out and inspect every litter, but anybody who goes to a pet store or answers an add in the local paper or inherits Great Aunt Fanny's non-descript registered whatsitz THINKS he could consider himself a breeder if he can find another registered whatsitz. 

Pippin is a wonderful dog (topic of shelter dogs, rescues, etc aside) it would not hurt for him to be bred with that temperament in mind, but NOT bred as an AKC Pom... or any other kind of Pom.  Just as a good little dog.  As I said, Trinket's issues are more due to nurture and not nature, but if this was how she was from birth, then no, she should not be bred as a furtherance of the breed.  I personally don't have and problem choosing dogs from Pom or Yorkie or Tzu origins.  I am not interested in breeding, and I am not interested in bloodline or registation.  I am interested in owning SMALL dogs.  I totally respect the ideals of striving to protect the integrity of the pure and distinct breeds.  On the level of the dog world, I think all should be done to reach those goals, but on a personal level, I would just like to have a small dog that didn't cost me $1,500 to $5,000 +

I just wish the SO CALLED breeders knew what damage they are doing.  The money is good for them.  They don't research, they don't test, they don't screen...... but they pull in the money. 

Liesje

Yep.  The nice thing about GSDs is that their temperament and working ability is also judged during a conformation show (SV I mean, I'm not into AKC). 

Lol, sorry, I'm still back on the fact that there cannot apparently be a huge variance within a good breeder's dogs.  I know these aren't poms, but here's an example.

Lucy is a papillon from a good, reputable breeder.  She is not to standard at all.  Wrong coat, small ears, face shape off, etc.  She is very pom-esque to me, but she's still all papillon.  She was sold as a pet quality dog.  By your reasoning since she is so off of the standard she could not possibly be well bred, but that is not true.  She is well bred, she just happens to not conform to standard at all.  She is a pet dog.  It happens from time to time. 

 My dog is also from this breeder. 

Quality look a bit different? 

I'm sorry, I just had to get that out.  Variety happens.  Yes, most pups from a good breeder should conform, but some just don't.  Some don't at all and it is not a reflection on the breeder as a whole, imo.  Genetics is a bit of a crapshoot.  It works the other way.  Bad breeders could produce dogs that excel in the breed ring.  That doesn't mean their breeding is good at all.

 Now, obviously no one should be breeding dogs way out of standard.  There is a lack in quality especially with toys it seems.  Toys from my experience are either very right or very wrong.  There's little middle ground unlike other breeds that I've had. 

Pwca

#1 is2003 Weltsieger (Best of breed at the FCI world dog show) Enrico aus dem Norden, a kleinspitz- one who is very, very close to perfect.

#5 is Carlo von Ayres Rock, an agility dog living in Germany. He's a mittelspitz who is RIGHT at the top of the breed standard and pet quality as far as type goes. He's pet quality whether you call him a wolf, gross, or mittel.

 Hello,

I was curious to see who uses some of my pictures and what I found made me really laugh.

It is true, that Mrs. Fischer breeds both - Kleinspitz und Mittelspitz. But Enrico aus dem Norden - this perfect "Kleinspitz" is an undersized Mittelspitz. He was born as Mittelspitz from Mittelspitzparents. Because of his less size he changed variety and is shown now as Kleinspitz.

Carlo von Ayers Rock has a size of 38 cm - what is perfect for a Mittel, if you like them big. 19 judges in and from different countries found him excellent in type and quality so he gained 5 National Champion Title, the International Champion Title and many other wins. And you claim him to be pet quality? Wow!

 Let me show you some pictures:

Who is who?

Greetings Elke

 Elke - I would say but I know the pictures off the site so I won't. I adore Carlo (and you should put up more hof his show stuff. I apologize for calling him PQ- I'm just repeating what I was told, which, in fairness, is filtered through a google translation, so it's kinda wonky.-I wish you had some video of him). I know Enrico is of mittel breeding- but he's a very lovely dog anyway. :P
   

What a beautiful bunch.  I don't recall who might have used your photo's, but I am glad to meet you.  I was only slightly involved in the conversation, but it quickly disintegrated into a fight fest. 

My interest was in how little many Poms look like Poms and more like those of their Spitz ancestors.  Bad observation.  Apparently, there are some frighteningly STRONG opinions about who knows what about the entire subject.  Yikes!

As you can see from my signature, I have a Pom (Pom-ish).  He is AKC, but I suspect he was bred more for temperament than confirmation.  He doesn't look Pom to me.  A co-worker bought him as a gift for her mother WHO DID NOT WANT A DOG, and when it became clear to her that the pup was not wanted, they asked me to take him as a gift (I am well known at work and elsewhere for my love and care for dogs).  He is my first Pom.  A cute little guy, but he got me thinking about these specialized and stylized breeds that are derived from well established breeds (in this case, the Spitz).

My little guy is only 7mos old.  I am eager to see what he will look like in a full adult coat.  In regards to your multi-country judging, do you travel?  That would be so neat.

Oh well.  It was nice to see your guys.

Hello,

your Pippin is a very nice looking young Spitz. She looks like a Kleinspitz of this age is normally looking, especially her head is very typical Spitz not Pom. This is a website of a woman, who breeds orange Kleinspitz in Germany: http://www.vom-haus-kring.de/index.html Take a look around and see her dogs of different ages.

 When the first standard for Deutsche Spitze was made in 1899 it knew the normal Spitz and the Kleinspitz. Kleinspitz was everything under 26 cm - the smaller the better. The preferred colour for that size by that time was black and orange and there was a good breeding stock - but not in Pomerania but around a town called Mannheim. Pomerania was well known for his very good breed of white Spitz - but with the normal size around 40 cm. I have a book written in the year 1904. There is written, that is was difficult to breed good small Spitzes because the dogs always wanted to grow up big again. Seems like this problem hasn´t changed over the centuries.

One of the first Poms - Windsor Marco:  He actually had the size of a Mittelspitz. And I found an artikel on this website http://www.pomeranian.org/content/view/18/32/ were some pictures of another early Pomeranians are shown. Lovely Klein- and Mittelspitzes, which would have good chances on todays shows.

The rest is political. It can not be, what shall not be.

Three of the five Mittelspitz I put to this site have Pomeranians in their pedigrees. None of them looks like a typical today Pom. Two of the five Spitz have a little bit of Kleinspitzlook, but one of these two has no Pom ancestors, so it has nothing to do with the Pom fact. It is just normal to have different types a one breed. If not, were would the possibility to create so many breeds out of one Wolf come from?

In Germany a Pomeranian will be a Deutscher Spitz. And a Keeshond will be a Deutscher Spitz. And a German Spitz will also be a Deutscher Spitz. We have only one breed in different sizes and colours - like the poudles. The rest is made by breeeding rules.

I travel sometimes. Early this month I went to Great Britain to visit the Crufts Dog Show. Later this year we will visit Skandinavia. But America is a little bit too far for me. :-))

Greetings Elke

Here's the thing though- in the US, we do *not* consider them the same breeds. There are less than a hundred klein and mittelspitz in the US, and oversized poorly bred poms are NOT registered as german spitz.

 

Thanks so much for your return post.  This is such a fascinating subject.  My little Pippin has turned out to be such a fun project, and he has brought up so many topics which I never really thought about before.   One learns to recognize what is considered the breed standard,  anything that varies too far from that is assumed to be a "mix".  I was just at my vet's office this morning and was chatting to a woman with a young dog I thought was an adorable "mongrel".  It turned out that she was the pup from TWO AKC POMS.  This dog was long, short, short-haired, dropped eared, and had a stubby snout.  She looked very much like a Tibetan Spaniel.

Thank for the links.  I will enjoy them.  I 'm sure.  I am curious if there are many other breeds that have such variations.  This is very captivating.

Have happy journey to Skandivania.  That has to be such fun.  I guess for now, I will have to continue my dog appreciation via television, books and the internet.

Take care,

Lindy   

Mdog59

I was just at my vet's office this morning and was chatting to a woman with a young dog I thought was an adorable "mongrel".  It turned out that she was the pup from TWO AKC POMS.  This dog was long, short, short-haired, dropped eared, and had a stubby snout.  She looked very much like a Tibetan Spaniel.

Hey Lindy,

well the puppy of two Spitz (of any kind or size) should at least look like a Spitz. If not - we over here have breeding rules. A dog needs a breeding permission. Therefore it´s health, look and temperament is checked. A dog like you described wouldn´t get a breeding permission - even if its pedigree goes back to Adam and Eve and is full of Champions. This way we keep our Spitz being Spitz - even if we only have one breed.

If you ever come to Germany burn Pippins AKC Registration, show her to a German Jugde an she will for certain get a registration as Kleinspitz without pedigree.

Some more pictures: http://www.spitz-forum.de/thread.php?threadid=2031  A German breed Kleinspitzbitch in orange out of a kennel with excellent Deutsche Spitze. She looks quite similar to your Pippin.

And whatever people say: your Pippin isn´t a poor breed oversized Pom. She is a beautiful Spitz with a correct Kleinspitztyp!

This dog is from his typ an oversized Pom:  You see the difference, especially in the head? Compared to this one, a correct Spitzhead:

 It takes more than a piece of paper to make a good Deutscher Spitz: type, temperament and health.

Greetings Elke

Yes, but just because the German clubs allow crossbred dogs to be registered (Smokey was a wolfspitz x klein before he was registered with the KC in England as a mittel, no?), that's not necessarily the case elsewhere. There are no kleins in the US right now that I've been able to find out about. There have been VERY few imported over the last hundred years. B contrast, there are tens of thousands, at least, of poorly bred Pomeranians who have reverted to the more moderate Spitz type. That doesn't make them kleins here. Certainly they could be exported to Germany and registered as kleins there, of course. But they'd still be registered as Poms here.

 Also, the breed standard here for poms is quite significantly different from the (FCI) standard for spitz. So while a good Pom here is spitzlike, it's not Spitzlike (trying to make the distinction between Spitz (the breeds) vs spitz (the larger family of dogs which includes Samoyeds, Eskies, etc) The proportions of head and body are very different, a different type of tail is called for, and I believe we allow some colors you don't. The American Pom standard is much more similar to the British Pom standard than the German one.
 

It's funny you should suggest "burn Pippin's AKC registration papers".  That was my feeling whether or not I  ever get to Germany.  I have his papers, but I have not registered him.  He is neutered, but if I had any ideas of breeding him, it would have been for his size, temperament, and sheer beauty.  I would never have entertained the thought of breeding him as a "Pom".  I just don't see it.    He is a wonderful little guy, but I would not perpetuate  the misrepresentaion of such a specific breed.

I have gotten the impression from some folks that breed specific pups are like a toss of the dice.  I realize that finding that "Best In Show" is not found in every litter, but surely there shouldn't be a high occurance of variations between pups in a good, strong breeding line.  That pup I saw at the vet's office made me think that the breeder had tollsed in some Peke for some reason.   I wish our AKC standards were a bit more strict.

I have heard some argue that there aren't any German/Klein/Mittle Spitz lines in the US, but according to my understanding of the AKC rules, someone could easily import a breed of similar appearance, list it as the similar breed and then three or four generations later, the pups can be registered as a breed it is not.  In this case, it would be the introduction of a Spitz line that is represented as Pomeranian.  Once the breeding line can be shown back for the acceptable number of generations, they can be registered as Poms even though they are not.  I'm not saying it is happening.  I am just saying it is very easy to see how that could happen.

I have thought about contacting the breeder of Pippin.  She is a local breeder.  Unfortunately, in the US anyone who can get a male and a female of any breed becomes a breeder.  It is very sad and just a nightmare for the pups.  SO many are sick and disabled.  I wish we could do something to make people understand these are living, breathing, thinking, feeling beings with so much to offer.  They are NOT a supplimental income.

Did I misunderstood something or started the britisch German Spitz population with 4 Kleinspitz crossbred to some oversized Pomeranians? And now they have a lot of German Spitz Mittel!

So come on.

And please - I am talking about Deutsche Spitze! I am well aware not to use the term German Spitz - except I mean the british or american dogs.

Because the standard of the Deutscher Spitz (FCI) and the britisch German Spitz standard differs too! The british standard allows every colour and even markings! The FCI standard allows brown pigmentation only on brown or brown particolour Spitz. At Crufts I saw an "orange" dog with brown pigmentation. So are Deutsche Spitze and German Spitz completly different breeds?

But the standard differs "so much" that successful German Spitz are shown in Germany als Deutsche Spitze and are able to win. Otherway round a german breed Deutscher Mittelspitz Champion won BOB at Crufts 2006. That´s the same to many other breeds too. Not the standards makes the dogs - it is the human who interprets it.

The standard of the Pomeranian differs so much, that Poms imported to Germany can get Championtitles not even as Deutsche Zwergspitze - and we do only have one standard for all sizes. I have proofs that ever since british Pomeranians were shown and breed in Germany as Kleinspitz. The british Pomeranians and the Kleinspitz were considered to be the same breed. Till 40 years ago the standard of the Deutscher Spitz only knew two sizes. The US Poms will not have fallen from the sky - right?

Todays showquality Pomeranians have changed their type in a way that they do not really look like a Kleinspitz. I certainly do not want this typ for the german Kleinspitz. But the "old fashioned Poms" - these you call poor bred -, they are still Kleinspitz of good quality. And I stay for it - the rest is political. It is easier to import new dogs and to "create" a new breed, than to deal with the Poms breeders and owners and make their "poor bred" dogs new champions. The same happened to the Siam cat. The modern type is awfull. So the lovers of the original type "created" a "new" breed and call them Thai cat. And now everyone is happy!? The German Shepherd people didn´t wont white Shepherds anymore. So they were breed unofficially as AC white Shepherds. And since a few years excists a new breed called Berger Blanc Swiss. Nothing else than white German Shepherds. It is all political.

So why do people require a new breed German Spitz just now? The Deutscher Spitz is a very, very old breed. But only now that the ideal of a Pomeranian changed so much away from the original the new breed German Spitz is reborn.

Pippin is an old fashioned Pomeranian - a Kleinspitz. But for political reasons no American will ever agree to this. And just because other peoples rules does not confirm to this opinion, you will never buy a puppy in Germany or some other country.

It seems to me, that you have less information about the breeding rules in continental Europe. Not only Germany but also the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, France, Switzerland, Finnland, Denmark, Sweden and Tschechia allows the change of the size varity of a Deutscher Spitz. France does not even allow it, it is duty there if the dogs size does not fit to his born varity. Tschechia allows even the crossbred between the small varities with a special permission. Their Pedigrees do not call the single dog Kleinspitz or Mittelspitz - they just say Deutscher Spitz. And it is not alldays german normality to bred a Wolfspitzbitch to a Kleinspitz dog - it was an accident. But still both parents are Deutsche Spitze and so the puppies of this mating are Deutsche Spitze. And no this is not the opinion of the Verein für Deutsche Spitze - this is the opinion of the VDH. Even more official! But still we normally first change sizes and then breed only within the sizes. And last in some countries (for ecxample in Germany) we are able to show and breed with dogs without any pedigree at all. There are special, very hard breeding rules for these dogs - but it is possible and is done ever since. The foundation bitch of Mrs. Fischers kennel had a mother without pedigree.

And with a look to the fact that you think Enrico aus dem Norden - born as a Mittel now shown and breed as a Klein - is quite very close to a perfect specimen of a Kleinspitz ( or German Spitz Klein ), it seems to me that the german breeders are not doing their job so badly.

Greetings Elke

P.S. Snoopy is shown in many countries as a Deutscher Mittelspitz. He won many, many BOB. He has several Championtitles. A dog of a foreign country needs to qualify for Crufts by winning at least one specific show. And to get a Championtitle the grown up dog must win at least 4 shows in more than a years time.