Tail Docking

    • Gold Top Dog

    Well the reason they do it early is it's supposedly less painful and quicker to heal and then because at 3 or 4 days old you aren't able to tell if the pup is show quality or not.  So they dock all tails as in many breeds it's the standard and a docked tail is at the bare minimum (depending on breed and country) a fault.  In weims a non-docked tail is considered a "very serious fault".

    That's the point of it.  Originally it was to avoid injury.  I'm sure at one point dogs were hurting themselves fairly often or it would not have been necessary... but now?  Tradition.

    Not a huge fan of the procedure and how seemingly unnecessary it is, in this day and age, but I won't lie, it has it's benefits.  Wagging tails won't clear a table Hmm (silver lining, I suppose?)

    • Gold Top Dog

     I've recently developed the theory that many docked breeds were docked because they have long, whip-like tails they slash around like sabres constantly. Boxers, Weims, Pointers... Smile

    • Gold Top Dog

    There's a lot of different reasons tails are docked.Some have lon whippy tails and thin skin (Pointers), some have traditionally had some bobtailed indivduals and the rest were docked for uniformity (Pems being a case in point, as I'm not actually sure that the working-dog taxes applied in Wales  as they did in England, I think they were too early for that, but I'd have to go research and I'm not entirely sure- this reason isn't mentioned at all in The New Complete Pembroke Welsh Corgi, though, just the traditionally NBT'd individuals), and some it was always just a cosmetic thing (I suspect some of the gundogs would fall in here too, particularly poodles who were traditionally working gundogs- but glamorous ones.)

     

    Today, it's a breed standard thing. I don't care too much on some breeds (undocked poodles are growing on me, if they've got good coat texture and a correct tailset, they can pull it off and it increases the appearance of the high-square structure; a lot of standard breeders, particularly, are leaving docked tails quite long for this reason)) but in otehrs, I really dislike it. In Pembroke Corgis, I think it's really changing the outline and overall look of the breed, converging them towards Cardigans. (The tendency towards 'more is better' and larger, heavier-boned dogs isn't helping.) Though the breed standard doesn't CALL for a low, fox-brush tail like the Cardi standard, judges are selecting for it, and it's changing the whole rear assembly. Ick. Dobermans are another breed that I really prefer the docked tail on (although I'm more neutral about the ears), and GSPs.  

    • Gold Top Dog

    Kim for the most part i agree with you. i have said the same thing about removing dew claws. some feel that they SHOULD be removed because its painful IF the dog rips it off... but i have owned many many dogs in my lifetime and never had one rips its dew claw off.... i even had a dog with double dews.... and never a hint of a problem.

    I feel the same way about dewclaws. We do not remove them any longer either. I feel that dewclaws play a very important role in the lives of dogs, in movement, play, grasping objects, etc. I've had two nail injuries over the last 15 years in dogs. Neither of them was in a dewclaw. We've never had a dewclaw injury either.

    but while preparing for the IF factor lets remove a whole of other things... reproductive organs MIGHT get cancer - thats the scare tactic people use to convince the naive to spay and neuter.... whats wrong with just quoting the statistics of unwanted pets? i've also owned a lot of intact dogs and never once had one develop cancer... or very many puppies for that matter...

    Yep, I'm nodding my head with you. I have done a lot of research among spaying/neutering in pets, and there are just as many problems caused BY these procedures as there have been by not doing them at all. Our main reason for promoting spay/neuter is that most people, sadly, are simply too irresponsible to keep their dogs fully supervised to prevent matings. We've also had intact dogs for years, with no cancer developed. And in 15 years we've only ever had one case of pyometra, and that one case was suspected to be caused by a pre-existing issue after the female had prematurely delivered a litter in which all pups died, and she was experience hormonal issues.

    lets also remove ears because they could get ripped, and/or get ear infections,  tails can break, or get badly cut and cause infection.... toe nails sometimes give problems because the quick grows to the very tip end so everytime you get the dog's nails clipped he bleeds like a stuck pig AND it hurts! so lets have them declawed while we're at it.

    LMBO. Now I'm just laughing. We've never cropped a dog, and never will. And I have to say, in just 6-7 years in Schnauzers thus far, we've never had ONE dog with an ear infection. Go figure.

    and whiskers! now... i'm not sure WHY show dog people shave the whiskers off their dogs.. but i'm sure there is a very good reason for it.

    I don't get it either, we've never intentionally removed whiskers on a dog. The only case in point might be during grooming (normal grooming, not show grooming) if we are clippering the face, and it's just lost in the hair, but I know what you mean about intentionally removing the whiskers for show, I think it's silly.

    honestly its pure ignorance on some parts... people want to prevent injury... emphasis on prevent because if you are hunting and your dog has his ear and half the skin on his face ripped off while you're out in the middle of buginfestednowhere then. ... that was a lot of pain you could have prevented..

    I agree it is ignorance on some parts. And I do feel there are some people that genuinely believe it's better for the dogs. I also know there are many breeders who hate doing it, but yet they continue to do it because it's "in the standard". It's in our standard too, but the only way to make a change is to actually take the initiative and DO it. We're not going to let a written word about a body part affect our decision to do what we feel is right for our pets. A dog is a dog, with or without a tail. And after the experience I have had, a dog is NOT a true dog without a tail. I cannot believe the differences I see in expression between our tailed and docked dogs. It's simply amazing how much that tail communicates to people and other dogs. There are others that are just so used to doing it, it would be hard to admit there might be fallout from the procedure, or that the "past" isn't necessarily what's good for our dogs now. There are yet others who would be happy to stop if the standard changed, but who do it for show because it's "what everyone else" does. So it's hard to make generalizations, and I don't try to do that.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Moderator speaking...

    Let's stay on topic folks...new threads can be started for other things aside from "docking tails". Thank you.

    • Gold Top Dog

    A few natural Mini's, in case people are not familiar with them:

     

     

    A couple pics of "tailed" dogs from the show last weekend (CKC - so tailed dogs are still quite rare):

    • Gold Top Dog

    I think a lot of good information has been posted about docking here.  I am of the opinion it's done mainly these days for tradition.  I really like the tailed look on many breeds, though some not so much.  I really have no problem with docking.

     As a side note for the whiskers, we just clip the muzzle so the stray hairs come off as well as the whiskers.  Makes the muzzle look more refined.  Not all breedrs/show people do this though.

    • Bronze

    German Shorthair Pointers, traditionally have 60% of the tail docked when they are young pups, and the dew claws removed. If not they will break their tails or skin them up when they are hunting birds. They work extremely heavy cover out in the field, and having this done prevents some serious injury.

    • Puppy

     The Painted Dogs in S Africa have tails and hunt in areas of concentrated and unfriendly thorn bushes.  My interest in them has been to watch them hunt and to note the LACK of tail damage despite the dangerous terrain.  However they did suffer other injuries such as broken legs.

    To see dogs with full tails in the docked breeds and comments from people about docking link to this site:  http://anti-dockingalliance.co.uk 

    Painted Dogs of S Africa

    • Gold Top Dog

    umm we're comparing african savannah to marshy wetlands now? IMO the CARRIAGE and activity of the tail during activity has more bearing on potential damage, than the thickness of it.

     

    • Puppy

    There are many good reason's NOT to dock or remove dew claws..I live in US and I used to dock my puppies tails at 4 days old and I quit after doing a lot of research and finding no good reason to do it. Tails rarely break..the UK has made it illegal (thank god)..I wish the US would follow.. But they have made it illegal in Hollywood Ca. and they are the first city in the US to d it, I am sure many more will follow..

    Here is a really good web site  http://anti-dockingalliance.co.uk/index.htm

    Karla 

    • Puppy

    Kim_MacMillan

    A few natural Mini's, in case people are not familiar with them:

     

    A couple pics of "tailed" dogs from the show last weekend (CKC - so tailed dogs are still quite rare):

     

    Gorgeous dogs with gorgeous tails! I especially love the springer's tail...

    Karla 

    • Bronze

    Docking has now been banned in Scotland and I find it disgraceful. As long as it is done when they are a few days old by a vet there is never a problem. Most of the people who deem it cruel have no idea about the dog world and think dogs are only here to pet. Working breeds are often docked because the tail and ears can easily be damaged and take a long time to heal, if at all, rendering the dog useless in its work. I think people should have the right to choose

    • Gold Top Dog

    Way back when we were breeding cockers, yes we did dock tails and remove dews at 3 days.  Our pups were primarily show quality and most went on to good things in the show ring.  However, in those days, "natural" dogs were not shown at all.

    Today, my feeling of my "right to choose" is tempered by the animals right to remain natural.  I would not dock a tail today, nor would I routinely remove a dew claw.  However, a dew that is not securely attached would be removed at the time of spay/nueter, simply as a preventative messure.

    My dogs, german shepherds, are not subject to the "rules" for the show ring, fortunately. This is not a breed that has ever had a docked tail.  They are a working dog with the original purpose being to be a moving fence for the sheep...to run up and down a given area all day long keeping the sheep inside the "fence" line.  Now, we aren't talking today with cultivated pastures....we are talking many years ago with possibly rugged terraine and while I've done a great deal of reading on gsds, Ive not read ANY reports of a full tail being an issue in their work.

    My six love to run in the woods and fields surrounding our house......they get into some wierd areas, but we've never had a tail injury.  And, I suspect that the cockers would have been just fine as well.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Kim_MacMillan

    lets also remove ears because they could get ripped, and/or get ear infections,  tails can break, or get badly cut and cause infection.... toe nails sometimes give problems because the quick grows to the very tip end so everytime you get the dog's nails clipped he bleeds like a stuck pig AND it hurts! so lets have them declawed while we're at it.

    LMBO. Now I'm just laughing. We've never cropped a dog, and never will. And I have to say, in just 6-7 years in Schnauzers thus far, we've never had ONE dog with an ear infection. Go figure.

     

    I have never really understood this argument on the ears. It seems to me that the dogs who’s ears are cropped would suffer from more ear infections than the uncropped ones. Cropped ears let everything in.  Mind you I do not have a problem with tail docking at all. Also dewclaws, Gunnar had his removed, Hektor does not and Hektor does tend to tear them and injure them when out running loose. I have even toyed with having them removed now, but decided against it. The ears are one I am on the fence about. Some standards require it. I know the Dogo standard required it at first but has since changed to either being okay. I chose not to crop Hektor for two reasons, neither had anything to do with the process itself.1. He would look meaner and I did not want him to.

    2. It cost $375 and was not worth the cost just to get a mean appearance.