Breeder Ethics....

    • Gold Top Dog

    Breeder Ethics....

    I enjoy reading up on breeds I've heard of and know little about.  I was recently reading about one particular breed (I don't know if I want to mention the breed, so as not to single it out) that is very aggressive towards strangers.  Here is a quote from the artical--
     
    "'One _____ breeder who breeds to the original old line ___ type states, "You cannot socialize a ___ to like people. You can obedience train them so that you are in control, but you cannot socialize them to like people. A ___ WILL attack a stranger. Period. If they have the proper temperament, they WILL. "___" translates to "Hatred and loathing of strangers". You do not make them mean and vicious... they ARE... and there is no doubt about it. They are not a dog for a person who has an active social life.'"
     
    What do you think about this?  Is it ethical in this day in age to breed a dog of this sort of power and temermant?  I mean, there are a number of guarding breeds that while they will always have the urge to guard, can be socialized to the point that they are both good guard dogs and safe to take into public.  I worry, as this breed is becoming more popluar, about it falling into the wrong hands and being targeted.  Mind you, I'm not saying the breed shouldn't exist, but should breeders tone it down in some cases?
     
    I'm interested to know what others think of this.....
    • Gold Top Dog
    I would think that selling a dog like that as a pet would be unethical. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    I wish you would share the breed, I'd like to link to an article. I think that a better understanding of these breeders and the dogs would make the discussion more productive.

    There are breeders within the breed working toward a more mellow dog.

    ETA: I also find this interesting about the origin of the dog "When the ____ finds its quarry it does not attack, but rather holds it at bay until the hunter arrives. ... When slavery was legal ... the ____ was used return fugitives unharmed to their slave masters.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Ok so the breed is??????
     
    With yor addition Sooner, I am now stumped..I first thought Fila...
    • Gold Top Dog
    The breed in question is the Fila Brasileiro.  As I said, I hesitated to mention the breed because I do not want to seem like I am bashing these dogs, or alarm lurkers.  I just was thinking about it while reading up on them.
     
    Here is where the quote came from: [linkhttp://www.dogbreedinfo.com/filabrasileiro.htm]http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/filabrasileiro.htm[/link]
     
    Here is another artical- [linkhttp://www.mindspring.com/~anableps/fila.html]http://www.mindspring.com/~anableps/fila.html[/link]
    • Gold Top Dog
    My info about the orgin came from herehttp://www.dogs-life.beautystyle.biz/pinscher_16.html

    The Fila Brasileiro is a courageous, powerful Mastiff. It is amenable with its human family, making a very loyal loving companion. Extremely dedicated to his owner. A Fila will protect you without a moments hesitation. He feels that is why he is there. Once you bond with your Fila you and your family will become his whole world. You do not teach your Fila to protect you, as he does this on his own. It is the breeds nature to be loyal and protective of his family. This trait of the Fila is called "Ojeriza". They love kids in their own family and take a lot of abuse from them. Ask anyone who has kids and Fila's and they will tell you how unbelievable it is how gentle they are with the children in the family. Fila's make great family pets and are gentle, loving, loyal and very protective. They will also bond with other pets in your home. Bold and very wary with strangers. This breed makes a wonderful guard dog. It needs a dominant owner who understands the alpha pack instinct. Proper socialization and understanding of the breeds instincts are the key to successful ownership of a Fila. At anywhere from 2 - 5 months of age you will notice that your Fila does not like strangers. You do not teach him this it is bred into him. He will only make up to people that he feels you trust.

    Some breeders breed the Fila to have a temperament in which they say is more like the original Fila Brasileiro temperament. One breeder who claims to breed to the original Fila type states, "You cannot socialize a Fila to like people. You can obedience train them so that you are in control, but you cannot socialize them to like people. A Fila WILL attack a stranger. Period. If they have the proper temperament, they WILL. "Ojeriza" translates to "Hatred and loathing of strangers". You do not make them mean and vicious... they ARE... and there is no doubt about it. They are not a dog for a person who has an active social life."

    However, more and more breeders such as Harley Acre Filas are toning the breed down, even the breeders in Brazil are breeding a more tame Fila. It is said that the original Filas would let the farm workers onto the property and so, the original Filas were on the milder side. Other breeders beg to differ on the issue of whether the original Filas were milder or more harsh. The controversy continues in the Fila world on whether or not to breed a Fila with a milder temperament or with the harsher temperament. The owner of Harley Acre Filas states "In the years to come I think it will be normal to hear of the breed being more open to strangers. I myself have both temperaments and the harsher temp dogs go nowhere and do nothing. What kind of life is that for a dog ? My tamer dogs will not attack (unless taught to) but he will scare the living daylights out of intruders and nobody will ever enter your property unless you ok it. No matter how much you socialize them they will always be wary of strangers. The tamer Fila is not mean and vicious unless you make them that way. Your Fila just wants to make sure that his family members are never in harms way and he is always on guard. If you choose a tamer Fila, when you get your Fila as a pup you have to decide then just how much you want to socialize him. If you socialize him at an early age by taking him around strangers it will be easier to handle him when strangers are present. If you choose not to socialize him you must be aware that no longer will the next door neighbor be able to just walk right in."

    Just because you breed a milder Fila to a milder Fila will not guarantee you a litter of mild-tempered Filas. Some littermates will be mild while others may still retain the harsher temperament. Filas will always be wary of strangers, even the milder Filas will be wary and all Filas will do what it takes to defend what is theirs. There are some Filas in which you can never socialize enough to make them allow a stranger to pet them. Part of it depends on how the dog is raised as a puppy and part of it is in the dog's blood. Outstanding courage, determination, and bravery are part of his characteristics. He is docile and obedient to his owners and family and extremely tolerant with children in his own family. His faithfulness became a Brazilian proverb. He is always looking for the company of his master. One of his characteristics is his "ojeriza" towards strangers. He shows a calm disposition, self-assurance, and self-confidence, not being disturbed by strange noises nor when facing a new environment. An unsurpassed guardian of property, he is also inclined, by instinct, to hunt big game and to herd cattle. The Fila is NOT a breed for the average pet owner. Some Filas may drool, especially after getting a drink.


    Like so many difficult breeds this IS NOT a pet dog for everyone. However, in the right hands I don't believe that this animals temperament as described is necessarily a problem, not every dog needs to be safe to take out into public - as long as the buyer is educated about what they are getting into and responsible about ownership. But, like you said sillysally, they are becoming more popular and like any dog, they can fall into the wrong hands.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Ah-HAAAA  That was exactly what I thought. I met a Fila about 8 years ago. We went to (don't freak) Kimbertal Kennels to see about Obedience training for Willie, this was before I heard about them being a mass producer. One of the handlers showed us a Fila, of course he explained to me about the breed and that we could NOT get close enough to touch it. Having owned my share of APBTs & Am Staffs by that point I was AFRAID of this dog and I am not one to fear any dog (thats DH's job)
     
    Scary thoughts if it was in the worng irresponsible hands
    • Gold Top Dog
    However, in the right hands I don't believe that this animals temperament as described is necessarily a problem, not every dog needs to be safe to take out into public - as long as the buyer is educated about what they are getting into and responsible about ownership.

     
    The true temperament of this breed is to NOT accept strangers...the immediate family is completely safe. Judging the breed, the dog is disqualified if the judge can touch the dog. I would say going out in public wouldn't be where this breed of dog should be
    • Gold Top Dog
    The true temperament of this breed is to NOT accept strangers...the immediate family is completely safe. Judging the breed, the dog is disqualified if the judge can touch the dog. I would say going out in public wouldn't be where this breed of dog should be


    That's scary, Jaime! I really hope that the lovers and breeders of these dogs are keeping them under a tight watch. Of course, if Kimbertall has them, I guess they've "gotten out" of that protective thing that some of the rare breeds have.


    • Gold Top Dog
    Well you said a mouth full...there is no control when money talks. Kimbertal has had some pretty high profile customers who probably need a dog like that BUT there are also some pretty low life people who can afford the price tag that comes along with a dog like that from them...thats what worries me. If I had the $$$ in hand the day I was there I could have brought one home.
     
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    BUT there are also some pretty low life people who can afford the price tag that comes along with a dog like that from them...thats what worries me.


    Yeah, I'd hate to see a dog with that type of temperament, mishandled. Can we say 'breed bans'?

    I'm sure that they're fantastic dogs, but I certainly wouldn't want that kind of responsibility. Nobody I know  (IRL) could handle a dog like that. They're quite beautiful, though, and I'm sure that folks who do illegal things would like to have them, for their looks and their attitude.
    • Gold Top Dog
    There are 3 breeds that are under outright bans in the UK, the Fila is one of them.  That's unfortunate, since I am sure there ARE people here who could handle them and would be responsible owners, but the chance isn't there.  To me it's a tricky issue of breeding for temperament - are we breeding for their natural temperament, or what we want them to have...and if it's the latter, is that fair?  I an all for breeding for betterment, but at what point are we breeding so much of the dog's inherent personality out that we are almost creating a different breed of dog? 
    Honestly, I don't know where I stand on this.  I certainly think that in the wrong hands this is a dangerous breed, but in the wrong hands ANY breed can be dangerous. 
     
    Definitely not for the inexperienced or faint of heart, I would think.
     
    Oh, for the record, the other 2 banned breeds in the UK are Tosas and Dogos.
     
    Kate
    • Gold Top Dog
    I do think that such a dog can be properly managed by the right person (although I personally think that there are very few people that I would trust to handle such a dog properly), it just really worries me that these dogs are getting more popular.  We all know what happens to breeds then.  It seems that many of the "power breeds" are getting more and more popular these days.  A friend of mine (Jojo the Pogo) met a guy that was breeding Cane Corso/American Bull Dog mixes to sell in his pet store.  If a person doesn't know better than to buy from a pet store, than I have doubts as to whether they could handle a mix of two large, powerful, drivey breeds.
     
    If the Fila's popularity starts to take off, do you think that the good breeders should then try to mellow the temperment a bit, in order to help keep the breed out of trouble?
    • Gold Top Dog
    If the Fila's popularity starts to take off, do you think that the good breeders should then try to mellow the temperment a bit, in order to help keep the breed out of trouble?

    Hell no look what breeders did to other breeds. Gun shy gun dogs, hunters that can`t hunt, herding dogs that can`t herd and guard dogs with lap dog temperments etc.
    • Gold Top Dog
    This breed is one reason why bans on Pits won't work.  Once the thugs get a load of what a Fila is all about, they'll be buying them to guard their stashes... If I had a choice whether to run into a Pit or a Fila, I'll take my chances with the friendly Pittie. [sm=uhoh.gif]