Australian Shepherd and Native Indians

Almost anybreed of dog can be good with horses if raised around them. I think it was the ranchers that kept the dogs from chasing horses or it could have that the dogs were brought up around them so just ignored em. My dog, a husky/Golden Retreiver mix, was raised with horses and doesnt pay any attention to them.

As for toy aussies, My guy friend has one and is always telling me how sweet but nippy she is. I have never met one tho, only normal AS's.

I know about the importance of early socialization.  I just thought maybe there was some kind of inherited genetic link that was stronger in the Australian Shepherds. 
 
It was quite a sight to this this toy AS.  Almost like watching "Honey, I Shrunk The Kids." 
 

ORIGINAL: Kydafett

Almost anybreed of dog can be good with horses if raised around them. I think it was the ranchers that kept the dogs from chasing horses or it could have that the dogs were brought up around them so just ignored em. My dog, a husky/Golden Retreiver mix, was raised with horses and doesnt pay any attention to them.

As for toy aussies, My guy friend has one and is always telling me how sweet but nippy she is. I have never met one tho, only normal AS's.

ORIGINAL: nocturnal76

Does this have anything to do with the fact that Native Indians raised Australian Shepherds? 

First, where ever did you hear indians raised Aussies? They didn't. There may have been some, but they weren't the ones who started the breed, it was sheep farmers and rancher types. The people who bred and raised Aussies came through Australia, probably to get sheep, and then came here and started breeding the Aussie we know. Aussies, if not trained to handle their herding instincts properly, are not good horse dogs as they'll try to herd the horses which is dangerous to both dog and horse. They can be taught to be good with horses especially if they're raised with horses. There is nothing in genetics that makes an Aussie a good horse dog. It's how they're raised and trained. If you want an Aussie, get one from show lines as their herding instict usually isn't as strong. Ones from working lines can be taught to be good around horses, but if they're herding instinct is strong, it's gonna be hard if you're not prepared.

As for toy Aussies YUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The toy Aussie doesn't even look like an Aussie half the time. The ASCA does not accept them and condones breeding of them. Aussies were not meant to be small dogs. It's stupid to miniaturize a dog breed just because someone wants one but doesn't want to deal with the size or the herding instict. If you want a small dog without a herding instict, get a Shih Tzu or something else.

Shiva 

Maybe they just seem to be good with horses because of their trainability. They learn quickly so it may seem almost second nature when they've been taught correctly.  
 
Amen Shiva! Toy AS? Double yuck.

[size="2"]Right on Shiva! Especially a 7 lb dog -- that is not an Aussie!

An Aussie is about as far from a lap dog as you can get. Toy breeds have always been companions, but an Aussie is first and foremost a working dog.

For the OP. The statement below, which is from the ASCA Web site, explains the "why":

[size="3"][size="2"]"The club wishes to respond to the breeders of small and tiny
 dogs resembling Australian Shepherds who claim they are producing a
 size variety. The Aussie was never intended to be selected for size:
 it was developed to be a functional working dog capable of handling
 tough stock and going for miles in the back country or snow drifts.
 Changing the appearance of the breed to personal aesthetic tastes
 rather than suitability for work does not fulfill ASCA's mission
 statement: 'to preserve the Australian Shepherd as an intelligent
 working dog of strong herding and guardian instincts.'"[/size][/size][/size][size="2"][/size][size="2"][/size]

First, where ever did you hear indians raised Aussies? They didn't. There may have been some, but they weren't the ones who started the breed, it was sheep farmers and rancher types. The people who bred and raised Aussies came through Australia, probably to get sheep, and then came here and started breeding the Aussie we know.

 
ya might wanna read up on aussie history - [linkhttp://www.glassportal.com/herding/shepherd.htm]http://www.glassportal.com/herding/shepherd.htm[/link]

ORIGINAL: lostcoyote

First, where ever did you hear indians raised Aussies? They didn't. There may have been some, but they weren't the ones who started the breed, it was sheep farmers and rancher types. The people who bred and raised Aussies came through Australia, probably to get sheep, and then came here and started breeding the Aussie we know.

ya might wanna read up on aussie history - [linkhttp://www.glassportal.com/herding/shepherd.htm]http://www.glassportal.com/herding/shepherd.htm[/link]

Thanks.  I'm a little dumfounded as to why spiritdogs agreed with Shiva.  The reason for her name in the first place comes from the fact that Native Indian-Americans called the AS "spirit dogs" because of their blue eyes.  They thought the dogs could "see into the next world." 

Yes, I know that the AS originally came from the Basque people.  That is not what I was asking.  I wanted to know more about the Native American background.  I'm not sure where I ever said that I was interested in getting an AS?!?! 

We had a small breed play tonight and a woman brought in her toy AS.  And she mentioned to me that "they are good with horses."  And I just replied..  "Hmm... I know the Native Americans used to have them... maybe that is why?"  I said this to make conversation hoping she'd know more.  She didn't even know the Native American connection. This is what rompted me to come on here and ask. 

Thanks for the info about the ASCA.  But why is this any different than miniaturizing any other breed such as the bulldog, shar-pei, etc? Is it any worse?

we have an aussie book we bought some 20 years ago and i had noted that the author stated that they (the aussie) did not originate in australia - as most people tend to believe the literal in which the name implies...

so i figured i would try to find some history (via Google) here on-line and post it.
 
p.s. there a plenty of dog breeds that can have blue eyes

ORIGINAL: lostcoyote
p.s. there a plenty of dog breeds that can have blue eyes

Yes, I know.  It's not me who held them in high regard for this attribute.  Perhaps this was the first blue-eyed dog the Native Americans had encountered.

ORIGINAL: nocturnal76
Thanks for the info about the ASCA.  But why is this any different than miniaturizing any other breed such as the bulldog, shar-pei, etc? Is it any worse?

It's not different than miniaturizing any other breed. However, in my opinion, miniaturizing any breed over a short period of time is a bad idea, because it involves changing the gene pool significantly in a few generations. In the case of the 7 lb. Aussie that is an 80% loss in body weight if I did the math correctly. That would be like having humans that are 25. lbs. as adults in just 3-4 generations!

You can imagine then, the number of other genes/traits that would be affected by such a drastic change in the gene pool. At the very least, you would have a different breed, but IMHO you'd have a bunch of really genetically messed up dogs.

And, that is assuming that only Aussies were used to create the "mini". (In many cases dogs are out-crossed to small/toy breeds to reduce the size in one generation, which is a mixed breed dog, not a mini Aussie.)

Someone with a better background in genetics could probably explain this a lot better, but I hope that info is useful!

ORIGINAL: lostcoyote


Thanks.  I'm a little dumfounded as to why spiritdogs agreed with Shiva.  The reason for her name in the first place comes from the fact that Native Indian-Americans called the AS "spirit dogs" because of their blue eyes.  They thought the dogs could "see into the next world." 

Yes, I know that the AS originally came from the Basque people.  That is not what I was asking.  I wanted to know more about the Native American background.  I'm not sure where I ever said that I was interested in getting an AS?!?! 

We had a small breed play tonight and a woman brought in her toy AS.  And she mentioned to me that "they are good with horses."  And I just replied..  "Hmm... I know the Native Americans used to have them... maybe that is why?"  I said this to make conversation hoping she'd know more.  She didn't even know the Native American connection. This is what rompted me to come on here and ask. 

I don't see that spiritdogs has posted on this thread yet--am I missing something??? Where exactly are you getting your information about AS & Native Americans? Could you post a link or provide a reference please?

ORIGINAL: lostcoyote

First, where ever did you hear indians raised Aussies? They didn't. There may have been some, but they weren't the ones who started the breed, it was sheep farmers and rancher types. The people who bred and raised Aussies came through Australia, probably to get sheep, and then came here and started breeding the Aussie we know.

ya might wanna read up on aussie history - [linkhttp://www.glassportal.com/herding/shepherd.htm]http://www.glassportal.com/herding/shepherd.htm[/link]

 
I did read up on Aussies before I got one, that's what lead me to say that. They didn't say anything about indians raising them or having anything to do with them. I'm not saying they didn't have the breed, just that I have never seen anything in the regards that indians had anything to do with this breed.
 
And nocturnal76, TexasDaisy was agreeing with me on the size issue. I was also just saying IF you want to get an Aussie. I didn't say you were going to.
 
Shiva

ORIGINAL: TexasDaisy
I don't see that spiritdogs has posted on this thread yet--am I missing something??? Where exactly are you getting your information about AS & Native Americans? Could you post a link or provide a reference please?

 
Oh god!  Sorry!  I didn't even bother to look at your user name!  I just saw the Australian Shepherd avatar and thought it was spiritdogs!  I never see anyone else posting with that same avatar!  These avatars are like faces to me.  Espeically when you are so familar with the poster.  I hope spiritdogs sees this, I'm sure she will find it funny. 

Okay, upon searching for ANY connection, the below is what I found. The way your post is worded makes it seem like Indians were the ones to raise Aussies. Because by saying "Does this have anything to do with the fact that Native Indians raised Australian Shepherds?", you make it seem like Indians were the ones to originate the breed and therefore it's instilled in the dogs genes to be good with horses. They may have raised them, but I doubt they did this until way after the Aussie breed was well established.
 
"Don (American and "Aussie Dad") writes:
As an owner of two beautiful Aussies, AKA: American Cattle Dogs, I really got a smile from the reaction of Australian expats to this breed.  One little tidbit your readers may find interesting.  Native Americans first began encountering farm and ranch families with "proto-Aussies" in the mid nineteenth century.  Since striking blue eyes are a common feature of this breed, the Indians called them "Ghost Eye Dogs".  The Indians believed they were their re-incarnated relatives and therefore sacred animals.  Indians would not harm families or shepherds with Aussies because they were under the "sacred protection" of these dogs."