Help me pick a dog

I was exactly 13 when I got my dog; she was my birthday present. I was expected to feed her, play with her, train her, walk her and all the rest. My mother fed her when I was at school while she was still eating 3 meals a day, and mother paid all the bills, but I was there when she went to the vet and I bathed her and taught her to be a good dog. It was a great experience, but it only works out well when an adult is supervising, I think. My parents knew they'd be looking after my dog when I went to university and paying for all her needs, and my mother used her to teach me all about caring for a dog rather than leaving me to mess her up.

Of course, my mother tried the same thing with my youngest brother in an attempt to teach him responsibility and he got bored of the dog and my parents had to step in and take over completely. So I think it's really important to match kid and dog. I had just the kind of dog I wanted, but my little brother probably would have been better off with a lap dog.

As for guarding, I beg to differ about the deterrant factor. Jill (who used to be my little brother's dog) is good-natured, not all that big, and wouldn't bite anyone, but when she hears someone coming, she comes charging around the corner of the house, hackles up, tail high and straight, and barking deeply. If I didn't know her, I certainly wouldn't be stepping into the yard. I've also met an Akita with a great nature, but he won't let anyone step into his yard if his owners aren't home, regardless of whether he knows them or not. If someone was that bent on getting into your place, a dog isn't going to make much difference, but in reality, I suspect burglars will generally try for easier pickings rather than taking on the unknown quantity of a dog.

It's worth noting, though, that guard dog breeds are not necessarily a good choice for beginners. They can be tough to raise properly.

Any dog with a nice loud bark will be as much of a deterant as you'll need in a dog. It's been proven that people up to no good will very very rarely enter a house where they hear a dog. It doesn't matter what kind because chances are they aren't even going to get close enough to see it, they'll just move on. And someone who is really really really up to no good will just shoot the dog and come on in anyway.

Gaurdian-typed dogs are almost always NOT good for first-time owners. They are gaurdians because they are fearless, intrepid, and tenacious. These are difficult traits to deal with in a dog. They tend to be fearless and tenacious in, say, grabbing your dinner off the counter in addition to being fearless and tenacious about gaurding their property.

Just keep in mind that dogs with nice loud warning barks, well they have loud barks. Dogs don't know the difference between the mailman, Aunt Sally and a robber. So if you want to get a dog as a deterant just be aware that it will bark anytime someone comes over. Personally, I prefer my dogs to not gaurd the house. It gets irritating to constantly have to tell Conrad to pipe down, I'm aware that someone is walking in front of the house and would he please just go back to sleep now? But then again, I live in a city so people walk in front of my house many, many times a day. When we lived in the country it wasn't such an issue.

Gaurdian-typed dogs are almost always NOT good for first-time owners. They are gaurdians because they are fearless, intrepid, and tenacious. These are difficult traits to deal with in a dog. They tend to be fearless and tenacious in, say, grabbing your dinner off the counter in addition to being fearless and tenacious about gaurding their property.

i agree 100%
something alot of people dont think about. guard dogs are usually alphas, can be of .. hmm.. most any breed, though a select few were DESIGNED with specific intent on guarding ability, so they are often times challenging, even to experienced owners, and cant really be trusted in public situations.
To have a guard dog you almost have to not socialise it the same way you would other breeds. not saying lock it in the backyard and never let it meet people other than family, but they have to know who is family and who isnt. its almost a different kind of socialising and hard to do.... like service dogs. they're taken out in public and into all situations but not allowed to fraternise with strangers.

Alright, I'll take into account what you guys are saying about guard dogs.  Based on what you guys are saying, most likely we'll just get a dog to have a dog rather for any purpose like that.

Earlier I mentioned about my sister not wanting to get the dog from a shelter...  Well, I'm having a hard time convincing her that it's a bad idea to buy from a pet store (since from what I read, almost all get their puppies from a puppy mill).  I tried telling her about various sites and humane societies that talk about how it's not a great idea to get a dog from a retail store, but she just replies talking about how her friends have gotten dogs from stores and they've been fine.  In addition to that, she thinks shelters are bad because she's had friends who have gotten dogs in bad condition.

Earlier I mentioned about my sister not wanting to get the dog from a shelter... Well, I'm having a hard time convincing her that it's a bad idea to buy from a pet store (since from what I read, almost all get their puppies from a puppy mill). I tried telling her about various sites and humane societies that talk about how it's not a great idea to get a dog from a retail store, but she just replies talking about how her friends have gotten dogs from stores and they've been fine. In addition to that, she thinks shelters are bad because she's had friends who have gotten dogs in bad condition.

Then look for a reputable breeder.  NO reputable breeder sells puppies at a pet store; ALL puppies from pet stores ARE from puppy mills or backyard breeders.  Settle on a few breeds, then contact the clubs for those breeds and they will give you a list of breeders who have signed their code of ethics.  Often, reputable, ethical breeders aren't quickly found on the Internet and you will need to be referred. 

She's a 13 year old girl, and if she's at all like I was when I was 13, the practical appeals to her won't work as much as the emotional ones.

Show her the websites where it shows pictures of how dogs in puppy mills actually live out their lives. If she buys from a pet store, she is giving money directly to the hand of people who abuse dogs for a living.

As for the shelter, go to YouTube and search for a video entitled "In Hope". That one never fails to make me cry (it's about shelter dogs and how you should adopt one).

Basically, puppy mill puppies may or may not be in ill health (though they often are) but they ALWAYS support someone who abuses dogs to make money. Pet stores lie shamelessly about where they get their dogs because they too are abusing dogs for money and don't like to let on about that (ask your sister: Who would actually freely admit they abuse dogs to make money? No one. So when you ask, they are going to lie.)

Anyway, if she really doesn't want a shelter dog (that's okay, they're not for everyone--I've had three and they've all been fantastic but I understand in a house with elders and children that a shelter dog may not be appropriate), there are still two options aside from pet store: A reputable breeder (someone who does not sell to pet stores, who insists their pet-quality dogs be spayed or neutered at the approrpriate age, who has done all health tests on the parents required to ensure sound puppies--and believe it or not pet store pups are often MORE expensive than pups from reputable breeders! pet stores prey on peoples' ignorance!). Or a rescue. A rescue is different from a shelter. Rescues usually focus on one particular breed or group of breeds and the dogs live in foster homes before they are adopted. They are living in situations just like your house, so the foster parents are much better able to tell you all about a dog's likes and dislikes, whether they have any special needs or behavior problems, and when the foster parents meet you they will be able to assess whether or not the dog's personality and your household's personality would be a good fit. That's a lot different from a shelter situation, which is stressful on the dogs and makes them act differently while in the shelter than they do at home, and rarely does anyone at the shelter spend enough time with each dog to really be able to tell you EVERYTHING about them. So a shelter or pound dog is much more of a crap-shoot than a rescue.

Okay, we went to the shelter yesterday afternoon and well... emotion always triumphs since my sister had no problem wanting a dog from the shelter, lol.  I did have to sternly convince both my sister AND my mom not to get two puppies.  So don't worry, let me know what we should not do and I'll make sure we don't make that mistake.

Anyways, we were about to settle on a Chow-mix puppy (they still want a puppy =/) but we went home and did some research, since that was a breed I was fuzzy about, and we didn't really like how the pure Chow was so calm and didn't really like how an adult one looked.  I probably never researched it because I didn't like how it looked, and it never came up as a match in the online quizzes.

So, back to the original question.  How/why we're going to get a dog is settled as I've acknowledged all your opinions on the subject.  But we're still not sure what breed to look for.  My sister did some online quizzes and she found that she liked the Australian Shepherd the most, while my mom is rather attached to the German Shepherd (she used to have a white one when she was little, and it died ).  My Dad and I don't really have a preference, only that it suits our lifestyle well.  From what I've read, I was thinking a Labrador or a Golden Retriever would be a good pick, as they are easy to train and friendly.

Edit: Although I'm not sure if the Retrievers' size might be too much for my grandparents.  My mom's pick of a German Shepherd might be better because they're less boisterous.

I DEFINITELY don't recommend a Chow or Chow Mix for the average first owner. Before going back to the shelter I would do A LOT of research on breeds to make sure your sister and mom don't bring home a dog that they like the looks of, but would be a bad match.

This may not be a popular answer, but in this case I really think the best idea would be to choose a breed and then get a puppy from a good breeder. A responsible breeder will be there to help and guide you as far as raising the puppy, behavior questions, etc. And it will be the best chance for getting a healthy dog with a good temperament. Just my opinion.

I think a German Shepherd would be an OK pick IF you are committed to training and making sure the dog gets sufficient exercise and has a "job" to do.  A lot of people will tell you that GSDs are bad for families or first time owners, and while I want to agree based on what I know of the breed's intelligence and temperament, what I've seen in "real life" doesn't really support that.  I know so many families that went with a GSD before they even knew a lot about dogs or GSDs and are now GSD owners for life and have always been happy with their dogs, the dogs are happy and complacent. GSDs are very intelligent and can have a lot of drive, but are also "velcro" dogs that need to be kept inside with the family.  They are great for training and can be great off-leash dogs.  In my experience, they are less hyper than Australian Shepherds and Border Collies.   If you are interested in a GSD, I would check with good breeders and see if they have adults available.  Many breeders adopt out "retired" adults as companion dogs once they are no longer competing or breeding.  I am getting a three year old GSD that is already trained and everything.  I'm not really a puppy person though, so I'm probably biased.  If you go with a puppy, find a reputable, ethical breeder that will match you with the right puppy.

The important thing for you is that regardless of what breed you choose, you will have to train it to respect everyone in your household and everyone will need to be on the same page and consistent with training and positive reinforcement.

Before you pick a breed of dog and where you'll get it from, everyone in the household should sit down and talk about these things:

- what is our purpose for this dog? What are we looking for in a dog?
- who is going to exercise it?
- what kind of exercise are we going to do?
- who is going to exercise it if the person above is gone?
- what kind of training are we going to sign up for?
- who will take the dog to training?
- how will we ensure that everyone else in the household understands the training and will also be consistent with the dog?
- do we have a "job" for the dog?  What kind of mental activities can we provide?
- what are we NOT looking for in a dog?  What will we not tolerate?
- where are we going to keep the dog?
- who will supervise the dog while it's outside?

Your answers will help narrow down the breeds and temperaments appropriate for your household.

ORIGINAL: zhandao

Alright, I'll take into account what you guys are saying about guard dogs.  Based on what you guys are saying, most likely we'll just get a dog to have a dog rather for any purpose like that.

 
Well, that's the very best reason for getting a dog!
 
Here's another approach you can try with your sister. Not the reasoning I push for going to a good breeder, but in this case hey, whatever works.
 
You can point out to her that she can get a puppy from show dog champion parents, with siblings that will be going to dog shows, for less than the cost of a puppy from a pet store. Most of the show breeders I know place their pet quality puppies for less than the cost at a uppy store. A lot of people do get a thrill from knowing brothers and sisters to their dog are going to shows.
 
It is true that good breeders never sell puppies at pet stores, no matter what the pet store claims. Each breed has a parent club, and the club has a Code of Ethics for breeders. They all state that no breeder will sell puppies to a pet store, through a broker, or any other third party. To check, you can go to [linkhttp://www.akc.org]www.akc.org[/link] then to the page for the breed. There will be a link to the website for the national breed club, and most have their COE posted. roof that et stores are getting their puppies through puppy mills.
 
Here's how I explain to people how buying from a pet store supports puppy mills. Explain how the money works. When you buy at a pet store, part of the purchase price you hand over goes to the owner of the pet store. He's making a profit on puppies, so he will keep ordering more. Then part of her purchase price goes to the broker, the one who puts hundreds of puppies into cages in a semi truck and ships them around the country. Then another part of her money goes as profit to the puppy mill owner. That money supports them in keeping dogs in little cages with no outside time, no human contact, breeding litter after litter until they are all used up. Most people don't feel good realizing that their money is supporting that whole industry.

ORIGINAL: zhandao

.....So, back to the original question.  How/why we're going to get a dog is settled as I've acknowledged all your opinions on the subject.  But we're still not sure what breed to look for.  My sister did some online quizzes and she found that she liked the Australian Shepherd the most, while my mom is rather attached to the German Shepherd (she used to have a white one when she was little, and it died ).  My Dad and I don't really have a preference, only that it suits our lifestyle well.  From what I've read, I was thinking a Labrador or a Golden Retriever would be a good pick, as they are easy to train and friendly.

Edit: Although I'm not sure if the Retrievers' size might be too much for my grandparents.  My mom's pick of a German Shepherd might be better because they're less boisterous.

Au contraire. In my experience GSD's are much more boisterous than retrievers, especially Goldens. I really really don't recommend a GSD for a first time owner, especially if you are concerned about boisterous behavior. I have friends who do tracking and herding and agility with their GSD's and some of them are wonderful dogs, but their owners put a huge amount of time into training, socializing, and keeping the dogs busy. I see lots of GSDs in the pet classes I teach and they are very often very high strung and far more reactive than a typical retriever. Plus, as one of my fellow trainers put it, "they come out of the womb with separation anxiety". IF your family decides that it absolutely must have a GSD, find an adult that you can adopt from a conscientious breeder or from a rescue. You'll have a much better idea of what the temperament is like with an adult than with an adorable puppy, and you'll have a much better chance of finding a more mellow GSD if you go for an adult.
Aussies can be pretty active too, but they don't seem to be quite so high maintenance as GSDs. It seems like your sister and mother are gravitating more toward herding dogs. I already recommended a corgi, and I still think that would be a good match for your situation. But, you might also consider a sheltie, if someone is willing to commit to brushing weekly. Go for an oversized sheltie from a good breeder. In my experience the bigger shelties are less barky and more mellow in general, and since the oversized ones can't be shown in conformation, breeders are sometimes willing to part with one for a reduced price. They are very smart and trainable, but need to be very well socialized to prevent shyness. Or, if you want something bigger, consider a collie. They are generally mellow and gentle, and the smooth variety requires minimal grooming except for the twice a year that they shed profusely. Very profusely. Or, if your family is up for some grooming or keeping the coat clipped, bearded collies are lots of fun, energetic without usually being neurotic about it, and very trainable.

Liesje: I gave these questions to my family and here are their answers:

- what is our purpose for this dog? What are we looking for in a dog?
Keep us company.  Qualities: playfull; loving; medium size; friendly; compatable with other dogs; easy to train

- who is going to exercise it?
My sister

- what kind of exercise are we going to do?
Walking, running, frisbee, fetch, etc.

- who is going to exercise it if the person above is gone?
My parents

- what kind of training are we going to sign up for?
Potty training, obedience, "puppy play-time"

- who will take the dog to training?
My mom and sister

- how will we ensure that everyone else in the household understands the training and will also be consistent with the dog?
We'll write up a schedule

- do we have a "job" for the dog?  What kind of mental activities can we provide?
No normal everyday jobs, only to provide warning barks.  They're not that familiar with mental activities but are willing to learn to provide them.

- what are we NOT looking for in a dog?  What will we not tolerate?
biting;destroctive;stubborn;not intelligent;hard at training;not compatible with other dogs

- where are we going to keep the dog?
Inside the house

- who will supervise the dog while it's outside?
My sister will.

Edit:  I found a local AKC dog show will be going on this weekend locally and we'll be planning on visiting that.

neither an aussie or a gsd is a particularly good choice in this situation, nor is a puppy.  To prevent a major mistake, see if you can find a litter of puppies some where close and have your sister volunteer to help take care of the puppies for one week from 9 to 5.  That will provide a much better idea of what raising a puppy will entail.
 
Another option, do a simulation with a stuffed dog.  Get the alarm clock and set it for a 5:00 AM wake up call.  Get out of bed for 30 mintues and go through the motions of taking care of the puppy.  Develop a schedule similar to what would need to happen for a puppy and throw in some "emergencies" like accidents involving urine, feces, vomit, etc.  Have the "puppy" on lead at all time and treat it like a puppy.  Use the same model as the "egg baby" exercises in some high schools.
 
The other issue, you have four other folks in the house who's overall capacity to deal with a high energy chewing machine will change over time.  An adult dog will really help with this.

It may be helpful to get your family to participate in this discussion.
 
An adult dog from rescue or a rehome from a responsible breeder is a much better choice. 

All puppies destroy at least one thing of value before they reach adulthood.  Ask your mom if she wants her good shoes chewed up or your sister how she'll react when her stuffed animals get the stuffing torn out.  How about when it tears down the curtains, pulls things off the tables, chews on the couch, puts dents in the table legs, chews through the computer cord, pees on the floor(which you step on), poops on the floor(even worse to step on), barks and whines until 3am, wakes up at 5-6am needing to go potty, nips at your feet so you trip, and throws up because it just ate faster than it's sensitive stomach can handle.
 
All puppies I've had have done all those things before they reached 1 year old.  Then your in trouble.  Now you have a more confident larger puppy.  They can not only dent the table legs but actually eat the table legs.  I was just discussing with some people today all the damage their and my puppies have done in the past month.  I couldn't beat the 1year old eating through the drywall on an inside corner of the house and scattering white dust everywhere.  There's now a hole in the wall and they are still vacuuming up drywall dust several weeks later.  However they couldn't beat the shear amount of destruction my puppy did to 1 room in less than 2hours.  There was nothing left in one piece in my bedroom.  Even the curtains were torn down and she peed on my bed.  She's nearing 6months old now and we're just getting started.  Seriously ask the other people in charge of this dog if they can laugh it off while picking up what's left of the room?  Cause you gotta laugh in order to keep from murdering the little monsters.  If they can't handle that it's time to go adopt an older dog.  I'm sure if you take them on a walk through a shelter "just to look" they'll fall in love with something that is cute but still grown up and end up wanting to adopt it.

I have never had puppies, always adopted adolescents/adults. My cellphone has tooth marks in it, there is not a single original remote-control in the whole house. Laptop cords? Fuhgettaboutit. Mp3 player? Bye bye. And none of this is taking into consideration the shenanigans prior to me crate-training our seperation-anxiety dog Conrad. He flooded the house once by turning on the tap in the kitchen sink while we were out (the drain was blocked by a dish). And that was by that point funny to me because he'd done so much worse prior to that.

Nothing has been chewed up (or flooded) in many many moons now (partly through training and partly through the practice of crating or close confinement when no one is home), but no dog comes out of the box knowing what is and is not appropriate to chew on. It takes a lot of work to communicate that to a new dog of any age.

Good for you going to the dog show. They're lots of fun and you can talk to some really really knowledgeable dog people.