i sortof have a problem with designer dogs.

Well I have a chipoo (chihuahua/poodle mix) and love my dog unconditionally.  He has a great personality and is so cute to top it off.  I don't think his birth supports any kind of puppy mill type thing because he came from a breeder.  I actually have never had a mixed breed dog in my life and was actually looking for full bred chis when I found him.  I fell in love the moment I saw him and could not put him down.  The breeder does not support the designer breeds but somehow ended up with this mix.  She breeds maltese, chis, and poodles.  I personally think that dog lovers should love dogs because thats what they are.  I understand not supporting puppy mills but descriminating against certain dogs because of their mix is wrong.  I also feel that designer breeds are overrated, but I would not say that I don't love my dog just because he is a mutt.

I would also like to add that if you read into the historys of different Breeds of dog you will find that along the way they were crossed with a different type of dog, to create what we know as a breed.
so in away creating designer dogs has been around for many years

 
Especially with hunting sporting dogs from Europe. The greatest explosion of breeds was in the last 300 years. Some ancient breeds, like Siberian Huskies and Salukis date back 1,000's of years. From the genetic analysis and physiological abilities, it is known that such early humans had no clue about how to breed for performance, scientifically. This lends credence to the thought that a certain wolf-type canid domesticated itself to man, in search of a more constant food supply from human waste and direct human intervention, i.e., feeding.
 
Specific cross-breeding still exists today in the form of the Alaskan Husky. It is not a breed but a type of dog. Cross-breeding specifically to create the biggest, fastest, strongest sled dog ever. Primarily to win races, such as the Iditarod and the Yukon Quest. Not to long ago, the Inuit were facing government prosecution for culling defectives from their breeding, something they have done for eons. So, out-breeding is not without its perils. But I imagine that some of the purebreeds that made into the 20th century also had massive culling in their lines, it just wasn't documented. Nor was stock management what it is today. With limited resources, a smart stockman was almost expected to cull defectives, rather than breed them again.
 
What would help the case of cross-breeders is if they would document their breeding with parentage, health of parents, and health certs on the pups. If  problem crops up, discontinue that line until a solution is found. That, at least, would be proper husbandry. Yet many people breed in their backyard, willy nilly, without any scientific approach, and that can't be good. My cross breed dog appears to be healthy but that could be the luck of the Irish.

ORIGINAL: trixiemolly

Hiya,
I'm in the uk so we don't have much in the way of puppy mills if we do have them at all.
There are people who breed doodles and cross spaniels (king charles and cocker etc) and others, is this the same sort of thing?

I would also like to add that if you read into the historys of different Breeds of dog you will find that along the way they were crossed with a different type of dog, to create what we know as a breed.
so in away creating designer dogs has been around for many years.

This is not to say I agree or disagree as I think it depend on why it is being done, if it is only for money then I don't agree, but if it is to help in other ways such as disablity dogs or something like that then I would have to say that I would be alright with that.
c x

Yes that is who we are talking about. The problem with people who are breeding these "doodles" and mixes in the US is that they are doing so with NO standard in mind, they dont care about the quality of the dogs they are producing, all they care about is the money. That's what makes them different than everyone else who has started a breed. The doodle people just want that $2000+. The other problem is that they are comming up with all sorts of different "designer breeds" that you could easily find at your local shelter. If it was just Labradoodles I would probalby be okay with that but now they have puggles, goldendoodles, "chipoos" (obviously), maltipoos, mini labradoodles, pomapoo, yorkipoo, ausidoodles, cavapoo, cockapoo, the list goes on and on and on, they are mixing every single breed you can think of. If the shelters were empty that would be great but they arent. Mixed dogs just like the ones listed above are euthanized EVERY single day, no one cares about them, yet people will spend $2000+ to get one of these mixes.. Again I will say they euthanized a goldendoodle earlier this year, there was also a labradoodle who made it out solely because someone loved his personality and found him a foster home. Otherwise he would be dead too.

Here's a small list of the mixes they are breeding: [linkhttp://www.dogbreedinfo.com/poodlemix.htm]http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/poodlemix.htm[/link]

If the "chipoo" was a rescue I have no problem with that. The ONLY reason I have a problem with designer breeders are they are in it for the money. I have yet to see one who actually created a standard for the dog, they dont care about that they want all the $ people are paying for their MUTTS.

And FYI-If the lady was breeding Chis, Poodles, and Maletese chances are she is a puppy mill and doesnt care about the quality of her dogs. People who care about standards, temparment, health, exc of their puppies usually stick to one breed. (I know a couple of reputable breeders who have 2).

The questions to ask are were the parents health tested, did they have any titles, what were the parent's temperment like, do they belong to their local breed club, will they always be there for the dog/you, did you sign a spay/netuer contract, will they always take the dog back if it doesnt work out, do they strive to improve the quality of their dogs?
 
 
FYI-there are thousands upon thousands of these designer dogs out there. [linkhttp://www.poomixrescue.org]www.poomixrescue.org[/link]  . A breeder in OR just surrendered 40 dogs to the local shelter.
 
I have no problem with the dogs themselves, they are very cute and I am sure they are nice dogs, however, I do have a problem with the people who are breeding them for profit. As the saying goes, a good breeder doesnt make money, they spend their money on good quality food, health tests, earning titles, improving the breed.

And FYI-If the lady was breeding Chis, Poodles, and Maletese chances are she is a puppy mill and doesnt care about the quality of her dogs. People who care about standards, temparment, health, exc of their puppies usually stick to one breed. (I know a couple of reputable breeders who have 2).

The lady I got my pups from is not a puppy mill.  I wrote that wrong; she has bred those different breeds, but currently only breeds maltese pups.  She still has a poodle and a chi as a pet but has never bred her chi and the poodle is the mother of my pups.  I have been to her house on several occasions and has seen how she takes care of her animals, what she feeds them etc. 

Some ancient breeds, like Siberian Huskies and Salukis date back 1,000's of years. From the genetic analysis and physiological abilities, it is known that such early humans had no clue about how to breed for performance, scientifically.

Could you clarify this statement, Ron? Are you talking about the genetic analysis of the dogs or the people? Because people thousands of years ago certainly were capable of breeding for performance, transforming hundreds of wild species into productive and useful domestic breeds through purposeful breeding, much of which is recorded in records still extant and available for your perusal today if you happen to read Sumerian cuneform or Egyptian roundhand.

If you have a Bible you can read an amusing little story from about 3500 years ago, about a guy whose father in law refused to pay him his wages as a shepherd, and finally told him he could have the striped and spotted sheep and goats in the next birthing season. Now, the amusing thing that people today miss in this story is that stripes and spots are recessive in sheep and goats so the father in law probably thought he was getting the last laugh. But the son in law arranged it so that the strongest beasts mated in such a way that they were most likely to produce mismarks (there's some odd jumbling of the text here that makes it unclear how he did this) - so that not only did he get more of the lambs and kids that year, he got the best ones. This story is in Genesis.

What I'm thinking now, looking at your sentence, is that you jumped from the Salukis back to the protodogs? I still think that it's debatable how slow on the uptake people were at the time of the domestication of the dog (it wasn't really that long ago in biological terms). I think there could have been some deliberate manipulation going on. It's really easy to mistake "primitive" for "simple" but I no longer think that dealing with animals, weather, the seasons, grass every day.

Back on topic - purposeful breeding of dogs is worthy of respect. Whether you are preserving and trying to improve a recognized breed, or producing working or service dogs, or dogs for public service, or performance dogs - it's all good in my book, as long as the pups are placed responsibly, proper precautions are followed to ensure soundness of mind and body as much as possible, and as long as the parents are treated humanely. Sometimes people might try crossbreeding to fill a need (the Hangin tree cowdogs come to mind here) but it's rare these days that a genuine need can't be filled by one of the zillions of breeds that are out there already.

Where do designer dogs fall in there? Their purpose in life, as far as I can tell, is to satisfy the breeder's urge to "let's see what happens if . . . ." and put more cash in the breeder's pocket. How many of these breeders take back pups, or guarantee health, or know anything about the breeds they are using? Heck, how many of them will tell you anything about the temperaments or qualities of the parents other than the fact that they provide a "Poo" and a "fill in the blank" and they have the necessary breeding equipment? That's the OPPOSITE of thoughtful breeding.

I, for one, do love all dogs. But that's precisely why I'm against the practise of intentionally breeding and selling mutts or other purely-pet dogs. Dogs are dying out there from lack of homes! These same dogs can become amazing therapy, service, and SAR dogs. Many of these same dogs can compete in AKC companion events like obedience, agility, rally, and tracking. Why intentionally breed more pets (I am not talking about herding/hunting/conformation/etc.) for profit in such a situation?

Buyers may not realise it, but they are directly funding this process when they purchase a designer dog. Years ago, before we knew better, my parents bought an apparently purebred GSD for $350. The puppy was discounted because she had no papers. We took her back to the BYB for one visit and never had contact with them again - no advice, no tips on training, nothing. We loved her dearly, but her over-protectiveness and lack of obedience led my parents to place her in a no-kill rescue before we moved to the States. Oh, okay, so now she's a mutt. If someone wants to buy a dog, they won't adopt her - they'll go purchase a purebred or designer dog, papers or not...just like we did.

I regularly place dogs into homes that can't afford a hefty donation. Why? The people truly care and really are financially stuck. If they need help with vet care or anything...straight out of my pocket. And btw, I'm a college kid earning $25/hour accompanying singers. I recently had a family who'd previously donated $125 but fell on hard times. They wanted to offer their beloved pet (my former foster dog) a more financially secure home - one that could afford an electric fence since chain link and wood are merely ladders to more squirrels. So I bought my little princess Houdini an eFence for Christmas.

There's just no difference between merchandise pets (call them designer dogs, pet quality purebreds, or non-registered purebreds) and adoptees, but there is a HUGE difference between supporting money-hungry breeders and funding a good cause.