Do you support BSL?

pudel

I honestly don't care about people's rights to own the breed of their choice (a major point where I differ with most of you).

There is an almost invisible line between the right to own one's breed of choice and the right to own a dog at all.  Do you not believe you have the right to own your dogs?  

 Pudel - I don't see how you can have the one without the other.  If you want the breed banned, then owning them - or anything that LOOKS like them - becomes illegal and criminalises normal, responsible pet owners, while REAL animal abusers go on as before.

pudel

I honestly don't care about people's rights to own the breed of their choice (a major point where I differ with most of you).

Absolutely.  As much as I love animals - dogs in particular - my own rights and freedoms and those of my children and future generations - are also in discussion here.  Amstaffy made some great points about this which I agree with completely.

pudel

I care about the future and welfare of the dogs.

Gosh, do you really?!  Being on a dog forum, I never would have guessed.  (end sarcasm)  I mean really, come off it, what exactly are you implying by that statement?  Do you think ANYONE here does NOT care about the future and welfare of dogs?  We ALL do - but I (and some others) realise that breed specific legislation will not help this cause.  Abuse of dogs will continue to happen until existing laws are enforced and stricter penalties in place for people who abuse animals.  What breed the dog IS that is being abused is beside the point.  NO breed of dog should be abused - does that mean NO breed of dog should be born EVER, in case they are abused in their lifetime?  Sounds like PETA to me.....

And, you said yourself, "if" (or rather "when";) a replacement breed popped up, you would wish that banned too.... and then there would be another, and another, and another.... hardly an elegant solution.

Besides which, the thing about criminals is - they don't generally obey the law.  It is practically part of the job description.  How much difference do you think it will make to them if the breed is banned and they are no longer allowed to breed or own them?  They will continue to do so (as have many here in the UK) but the difference will be that "their" pit bulls will be the ONLY pit bulls around and the "true" examples of the APBT will die out.  Thus the breed will be ruined further rather than exterminated and still abuse will happen, bites will happen, fatalities will happen and the people perpetrating these crimes will carry on freely while family pets are seized and the owners criminalised.  Don't tell me this won't happen, because I am living in a country where it already has.  In the UK we have proof, in action, that BSL... does.... not.... work.   On any level.  Period, paragraph, new book.

Benedict

 There was a bill presented in the House of Lords last week, who knows where it will go but it's a hopeful sign. 

ETA (taken from the KC website):

If passed the Bill will introduce three major changes to current dangerous dogs legislation:

• Instead of banning specific breeds of dog, the dog’s behaviour – as well as its treatment by its owner – will be used to determine if it is a risk to public safety.

Bold above added by me.  I LOVE that part. 

This is great news   It would actually make the law RELEVANT - a huge step forward...

Benedict

Instead of applying only to attacks that take place in public, the Bill will also make attacks on private property a criminal offence.

So, if one of my dogs bit a burglar, would that me a criminal? Hmmm...

Benedict

It would be an offence to breed dogs for fighting or to keep a dog that has been used for fighting.

So what happened to Vick's dogs couldn't happen here?  Where they were rehabilitated and rehomed?  Hmmm again.... *goes off to think*

Every responsible dog owner needs to stand up and fight against BSL!  Remember, it could be you next time!  If you don't think so, take a look at the BSL that Italy passed last year against 92 breeds of dog!  If you choose to walk a Corgi or Border Collie in public they have to be muzzled as they are considered dangerous.  In the Bahamas they passed restrictions against many large breed dogs.  It doesn't matter what breed of dog you own, you can easily with one incident become a target.  That could easily include you Pudel and your dogs, something to think about.  I truely think you would be singing a different tune if it were you and your dogs who were targets, you may not be so inclinded to agree with BSL.

 Argh I just typed a post and then lost it.  Let's try again. 

Chuffy

Benedict

Instead of applying only to attacks that take place in public, the Bill will also make attacks on private property a criminal offence.

 

So, if one of my dogs bit a burglar, would that me a criminal? Hmmm...

I think that when taken in relation to the first part item on the list, this is actually a positive thing and relates not to burglars being attacked, but people (guests) who are supposed to be on the property.  I'll PM you a story about that.  When allowing for the context of dog-attacking-burglar,  the dog's behaviour and how it was raised/treated is much more likely to be found acceptable over a dog who attacks an invited guest, which is more indicative of a temperament problem.  I don't get the impression that this is an either/or situation, meaning that even if the attack IS on private property the behaviour and treatment (and thus, whether the dog was provoked) would now be taken into account.

Dogs and people have already been punished for defending their own property...let's not forget that man who went to prison for shooting a burglar.  I'm much more comfortable with a law that makes clear the influence of the behaviour/treatment factor.

Chuffy

Benedict

It would be an offence to breed dogs for fighting or to keep a dog that has been used for fighting.

 

So what happened to Vick's dogs couldn't happen here?  Where they were rehabilitated and rehomed?  Hmmm again.... *goes off to think*

This makes me scratch my head too, BUT I am an advocate of walking before running.  Taking away the breed bans would be a HUGE step and would free up the resources to then focus on rehab protocols.  Right now, the breeds used for fighting ARE the illegal ones and when seized, are destroyed because they have to be...because they are illegal.  When that is removed it will be easier to see that each dog seized should be assessed on its own merits and decided in some cases that rehab could be possible.  If that's several years down the line, I am frankly OK with that if it's the price to pay for removing breed bans.  

 http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2008/12/cops-rescue-abused-dogs-make-arrests.html

 Other breeds that are powerful, large and at once time known to be vicious are also abused. Pits certainly have got the bad rap now, but they are by far not the only breed misused, mistreated, and abused. 

pudel

 If they weren't bred in the first place, this wouldn't happen.  I don't believe in seizing dogs - every living dog should have the opportunity to live a life well cared for by a loving owner.  Unfortunately, once a pit bull puppy is born, that will most likely not be his fate.  As I've stated, I do not believe in breeding pit bulls, or another "replacement" breed for that matter.  I honestly don't care about people's rights to own the breed of their choice (a major point where I differ with most of you).  I care about the future and welfare of the dogs.

Which is it, you care about the future and welfare or you want to see them extinct?

The American Pit Bull Terrier is one of the oldest American Bred dogs to date. They have been exploited by irresponsible owners because of their dedication to their owners. Again, this is not a breed problem, this is an owner problem. I'm sure you will not engage in conversation with me because I am not your typical drug dealing thug that owns a pit bull. I am educated and well rounded as are my dogs. Of course if you did engage in conversation with me you would probably walk away with a different sense of why the breed is in trouble and might even help to stop BSL because it does present an unfair issue to those who do own this breed responsibly.

A few members of this forum not only have met my siggy dog in person but also have relatives completely across teh Country who too are responsibly owned.

How many service dogs, therapy dogs, drug detecting dogs would lose their lives if the entire world felt the same as you? BSL doesn't work, thank goodness there are a great many people out there who also see this and work towards making laws that will encompass all breeds of dogs and focus on the irresponsible owners as the culprit...the light at the end of tunnel might not be  a train!!

amstaffy

Which is it, you care about the future and welfare or you want to see them extinct?

I said I care about the DOGS, not the BREED.  The future of the breed has nothing to do with the individual dogs currently born and abused. I have two rescue poodles and honestly I did not choose them based on breed, nor do I care what breed they are.  Besides, breed is a man-made concept - it's not like a species in nature going extinct as a result of human activity.

And I do support going after the people who are engaged in this activities, I never said I didn't.  I said I wanted it addressed from both ends.  All the statistics and hypothetical situations are not going to change the fact that I will not support the breeding of a type of dog for the purpose of fighting and abuse.  If a breed of dog was created for the purpose of human consumption, I don't have to support that either.  I'll bet a lot of you who support pit bull breeding woudln't think twice about stating a belief that breeding designer dogs are wrong because you know the harm that comes from it.

pudel

The future of the breed has nothing to do with the individual dogs currently born and abused.

Yes it does, if they are being abused because of their breed.  

pudel

I said I care about the DOGS, not the BREED.  The future of the breed has nothing to do with the individual dogs currently born and abused. I have two rescue poodles and honestly I did not choose them based on breed, nor do I care what breed they are.  Besides, breed is a man-made concept - it's not like a species in nature going extinct as a result of human activity.

And I do support going after the people who are engaged in this activities, I never said I didn't.  I said I wanted it addressed from both ends.  All the statistics and hypothetical situations are not going to change the fact that I will not support the breeding of a type of dog for the purpose of fighting and abuse.  If a breed of dog was created for the purpose of human consumption, I don't have to support that either.  I'll bet a lot of you who support pit bull breeding woudln't think twice about stating a belief that breeding designer dogs are wrong because you know the harm that comes from it.

So you care about all other dogs except Pit Bulls and you think that they should be banned, and killed because they are banned? Is that really what you think should happen? Tell me who will do this and who will pay for it as well??

 You want to see perfectly good pets put to sleep because of the hypothetical situations that *could* happen? Even the ones who are owned responsibly? You know the one that saved its family from a fire, the one who pulls his owner in a wheel chair because he doesn't have the strength in his arms to move,how about the one who pulls his owner on a skate board because he has no legs and it is ONLY form of travel? What about Wheela the dog who lead stranded people through a flood to higher ground and swam food to them?

How about stubby the war hero would you have put that dog down too??

Here's some good reading for you

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/pospress.html

Did you know Helen Kellers dog was a Pit Bull? How about Pete on the little Rascals...Pit Bull actually they used several Pit Bulls in the series of shows they produced other then the actual TV show...silent movies, thats how long ago Pit Bulls were still respected...Tige The dog on the Buster Brown shoes...you guessed it..PIT BULL!!!

This breed of dog held a higher place then your average German Shepherd of its time, these days it's some mutt that people want to see destroyed because they are too closed minded to seek the truth...well not all of them, some really do see the reality and not fall prey to the hype and media frenzie...those are truely special people

pudel

 I'll bet a lot of you who support pit bull breeding woudln't think twice about stating a belief that breeding designer dogs are wrong because you know the harm that comes from it.

What harm...that people are getting ripped off because they are spending thousands of dollars for mixed breed dogs that are not registered? Hey theres a lot of sayings that fit the bill on this one...a fool and his money soon part, there's a sucker born everyday..the list could be endless.

 This has nothing to do with BSL

pudel

amstaffy

Which is it, you care about the future and welfare or you want to see them extinct?

I said I care about the DOGS, not the BREED.  The future of the breed has nothing to do with the individual dogs currently born and abused. I have two rescue poodles and honestly I did not choose them based on breed, nor do I care what breed they are.  Besides, breed is a man-made concept - it's not like a species in nature going extinct as a result of human activity.

And I do support going after the people who are engaged in this activities, I never said I didn't.  I said I wanted it addressed from both ends.  All the statistics and hypothetical situations are not going to change the fact that I will not support the breeding of a type of dog for the purpose of fighting and abuse.  If a breed of dog was created for the purpose of human consumption, I don't have to support that either.  I'll bet a lot of you who support pit bull breeding woudln't think twice about stating a belief that breeding designer dogs are wrong because you know the harm that comes from it.

If someone deliberately breeds a mix with a stupid cutesie name, that is NOT a responsible breeder, or someone I would support or condone. 

Similarly, if someone bred dogs specifically for eating - again, I would decry this practise. 

And if someone were breeding dogs specifically for fighting, I would decry that too, and would want the person prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.  I would NOT want the breed exterminated - I would want all the effort and expense going into where the harm truly originates - the person responsible. 

However - NOT all people who own or breed APBTs are breeding them for fighting, or for the purpose of being deliberately abused.  This is a narrow minded view, and rather insulting to the Pittie owners/breeders on the board.  This is precisely the stigma that owners of these types of dogs are facing all the time.

Chuffy

However - NOT all people who own or breed APBTs are breeding them for fighting, or for the purpose of being deliberately abused.  This is a narrow minded view, and rather insulting to the Pittie owners/breeders on the board.  This is precisely the stigma that owners of these types of dogs are facing all the time.

Chuffy the Christmas spirit has overcome me and I want to give you a big hug!! LOL!

This is the stigma many of us are working to dispell...the percentage of people breding these dogs FOR fighting is minimal compared to those who are involved in the breed in a positive way...you just happen to hear about the bad stuff more because it sells...when I get home and settled I'll try and get on and start a thread with some positive pittie people I saw while in MO at our National Specialty show...not that it would change this mind but I know there are plenty of people who will enjoy the pics we took while we were out there...and speaking of our National I have a brag about that too...for another thread :)

amstaffy

You want to see perfectly good pets put to sleep because of the hypothetical situations that *could* happen?

Who said anything about putting dogs to sleep?  I am against them being bred, I don't want them killed!

Chuffy

If someone deliberately breeds a mix with a stupid cutesie name, that is NOT a responsible breeder, or someone I would support or condone. 

Why are they not responsible? Because they have stupid cutesie names?  It's only responsible if all the puppies have the same ear shape, or coat type, or size?