Do you support BSL?

pudel

Regarding the situation in UK, it is apples and oranges.  You cannot compare policies in the US and Europe unless all over variables are the same.  Which they are not.  The culture, population, demographics, geography, government and law enforcement are different.  No other country has the same gluttonous, disposable mentality to the extent that we have here in the US.  Apparently you believe you can change that.  Good luck.

Every argument I hear against BSL, whether it's "the laws won't work" or "another breed will just pop up in its place"  or "don't punish the dogs because of stupid people" are all just a facade that they are hiding behind, when the real reason is their own self interest in owning a dog of this specific breed.

Want a more local example then? Denver, Colorado is a US example. Prince George County in Maryland is a US example. It doesn't matter the country, BSL is ineffective. UK discovered it was ineffective. The Dutch government recently realized it was ineffective. If my memory serves me right, Australia realized their GSD ban was ineffective and based off very poor reasoning as well.

I don't own a pit bull. I don't have plans to own a pit bull in this decade. I have no close or personal friends that breed or own pit bulls. I don't even live in an area that regulates pit bulls yet. 

The difference here is not who owns or doesn't own a pit bull, it is who is INTELLIGENT, REASONABLE, and EDUCATED enough to understand that banning a breed(or any kind of BSL, even) is ineffective, does not lower dog bites or fatalities, does NOT stop dog fighting or dog abuse, does not help young children who are often the victim of such attacks, and only punishes RESPONSIBLE dog owners. 

 I care about people. I care about them a lot. And my heart is torn for those that suffer fatal dog attacks because of the hands of irresponsible dog owners. My heart is torn for dogs that suffer at the hands of humans. I do want to be able to influence law makers to enforce current laws and create stricter and harsher consequences, and even some possible new laws, that would protect people from such irresponsible dog owners. And of course, to protect such dogs from those people as well. BSL is not one of those solutions. It never has worked. It never will.

Statistically, fathers are more likely to molest and abuse their children. We do not ban all fathers. Not all fathers abuse their children. Why in anyone's messed up brains woudl they think it woudl be any more effective to ban breeds of dogs? It does not work, will not work, and is truly unconstitutional.   Statistics = CORRELATIONS, not facts. Recently there was a study that noted a correlation between education and those that do and do not support gay marriages. Those that have had higher education support it. Those that have not had any higher education do not. So, if we'd like to take that CORRELATION as fact, we'd believe as strongly as the public does about "vicious" pit bulls that STUPID people are the ONLY people against gay marriage. That isn't right.

 The CDC (Center for Disease Control, who conducted research on dog bites) said themselves that it is IMPOSSIBLE to determine how many breeds of each dog exist in the nation. IMPOSSIBLE. Therefore, no matter the study, if the study is based on BREED, it will ALWAYS be unreliable and WRONG. CDC also concluded that it is IMPOSSIBLE to determine that any breed of dog is more aggressive or vicious than others. Now that is the cold hard truth.

tessa_s212

CDC also concluded that it is IMPOSSIBLE to determine that any breed of dog is more aggressive or vicious than others. Now that is the cold hard truth.

This seems crazy to me.  Clearly, some breeds are much more likely to be aggressive.  For some, that's what their original purpose was for. 

AgileGSD

Why do you think a breed ban would be more effective than the current laws against fighting?

It's not an either/or thing, I think the current laws agains fighting should remain in place and the breed should be banned.  Of course it would not completely eliminate all dog fighting.  Regardless of how many laws we have in place, crimes are committed every day.  The goal is to drastically reduce the number of animals that are abused, suffering and homeless as a result of this practice.  I don't think fighting would escalate to the same levels with any other breed.  The other breeds you metion, like the mastiff guarding breeds, do not have the friendly, gentle nature towards humans that pit bulls have.  They are guard breeds and therefore have the tendency towards human agression, therefore much more dangerous and difficult to handle by the dog fighting people.  Another breed would have to be created and that would take a lot of time and effort.  The pit bulls did gain in number and popularity quickly, but back then it was a lot easier when the evils of dog fighting  were not in the public eye.  If they start creating another fighting breed, than that breed should be banned as well.  I am against bringing any dogs into this world for the purpose of abusing them.  I think the problem needs to be addressed at both ends, not just one.  I don't think it sends the right message to say it's ok to breed fighting dogs but it's not ok to fight them.  I also want to add that these so called "responsible breeders", if they actually care about the plight of these animals should set an example and stop breeding them themselves.

tessa_s212

The difference here is not who owns or doesn't own a pit bull, it is who is INTELLIGENT, REASONABLE, and EDUCATED enough to understand that banning a breed(or any kind of BSL, even) is ineffective, does not lower dog bites or fatalities, does NOT stop dog fighting or dog abuse, does not help young children who are often the victim of such attacks, and only punishes RESPONSIBLE dog owners. 

tessa - I'm curious to know why you started this thread, polling people for their opinions out of "general curiosity" as you say, when clearly you already have a very strong, passionate opinion on the matter and it's not ok for anyone to have an opinion that is different than yours.

pudel

tessa_s212

The difference here is not who owns or doesn't own a pit bull, it is who is INTELLIGENT, REASONABLE, and EDUCATED enough to understand that banning a breed(or any kind of BSL, even) is ineffective, does not lower dog bites or fatalities, does NOT stop dog fighting or dog abuse, does not help young children who are often the victim of such attacks, and only punishes RESPONSIBLE dog owners. 

tessa - I'm curious to know why you started this thread, polling people for their opinions out of "general curiosity" as you say, when clearly you already have a very strong, passionate opinion on the matter and it's not ok for anyone to have an opinion that is different than yours.

 Well, it is this simple. You don't even have any research or thought into this to back up what you are saying. You spout mistruths and myths like mad and use those to back your arguements. **content removed, personally directed, rude**

 And I can simply let it go when intelligent people have done the research, UNDERSTAND a few things about BSL and pit bulls(and that all breeds of dogs are abused and capable of becoming vicious), but think some short term things, such as requiring people to have a special license to breed pit bulls, or mandatory spay/neuter for those that have not had their dog pass a temperament test(CGC, ATTS, etc) might help ... but when people want to so ignorantly ban a breed, will not and have not done the research, are ignorant about dog behavior and aggression, and don't even care that it is usually an ineffective policy(won't help future victims at all) and that it punishes responsible owners.. ya.. sorry that I'm actually compassionate for people deserving that compassion. Compassion for future victims, compassion for the animals, and compassion for those that ARE responsible breeders.

I have no compassion for ignorant, hateful fools that do not care about the peopel involved that may one day become victims of fatal dog attacks, the peopel involved that currently own loving, friendly pitbulls,  or the people that are TRULY responsible breeders. **content removed, personally directed rude*

How do you figure it won't help future victims at all?  If there is no dog there, then there is no incident, therefore no victim. 

pudel

tessa - I'm curious to know why you started this thread, polling people for their opinions out of "general curiosity" as you say, when clearly you already have a very strong, passionate opinion on the matter and it's not ok for anyone to have an opinion that is different than yours.

Once again,my thoughts exactly.The word ambush comes to mind.I am not even in favor of BSL.but I can understand your perspective Pudel,even if it's not mine.

Tena

For a quick answer, I'd say NO to any BSL, but Bonita's ideas have a lot of merit, and would make sense if it could be enforced. Unfortunetly, whenever a good idea is brough is to the attention of lawmakers the result is NOT what was intended.

The dog fighting issue is only a small part of the pitbull "problem". Poor breeding, poor owners, and poor enforcement of existing laws is the heart of it all. I know that some folks believe that other breeds are not going to fill the "niche" if pits were banned, but that is pure foolishness. I lived thru the seventies when every "badboy" just had to have a Doberman!! If the breed had been banned then, where would we be today? After the Dobe became a dime a dozen, the bad crowd went to Rotts. After the Rotts became overbred, the bad crowd could be seen around the Am Staff rings at the shows. It could easily end with every working, terrier, and herding breed being banned.

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dstull

lived thru the seventies when every "badboy" just had to have a Doberman!! If the breed had been banned then, where would we be today? After the Dobe became a dime a dozen, the bad crowd went to Rotts. After the Rotts became overbred, the bad crowd could be seen around the Am Staff rings at the shows. It could easily end with every working, terrier, and herding breed being banned.

I definitely agree that there are many breeds that can attract the bad crowd. However, if you worked in a shelter in the seventies, you would not see dobes being brought in daily, bloody ften mangled beyond recognition.  And those are only the dogs that were lucky enough to be brought to shelters.  How about the ones that die  torturous deaths by hanging, blunt beatings or electrocution?  It has never happened on such a scale with any other breed.  This is the fate of most of the pit bull puppies that are born, and when they are born for most of them it is already too late. 

And thank you 4HAND for at least listening to my point of view.

Pudel 

You are right, and we agree on the availability issue.  However, I am sure that one of the dogs on a  list of breeds that have been used for fighting would rise to fill the void.  Or more likely, folks would start breeding a new "dog breed".  When there is that kind of money involved, the void will bill filled.  I do believe it is perfectly reasonable to compare countries and cultures.  True we are not the best of people on all days, but we will step up to the occassion.  There are plenty of countries that have even more disposable mentalities in part due to the poverty and violance and disease.

I did not say laws don't work I stated that breed bans do not work.  They are especially unsuccessful when they are unfunded mandates.  I would expect there would not be adequate enforcement.  Working in a field were unfunded mandates are the norm, I would think this approach will expereince far more difficulty.  There is little national or state money that could be revoked if there was non compliance with the enforcement of the specifics of the law.

I have no problem with enforcement of a one bite law (we actually have three bites in our dangerous dog statute).  Lets enforce that one for a year and collect the data.  I much prefer data based decisions on the basis of enforcement of current laws over a new mandate that has no data regarding effectiveness.

I did take offense at the comment regarding my belief in working locally to change things.  Already do and I have seen some change.  It may not matter for all dogs, but it will matter for the ones I have sheltered and transported (from rescue).  Remember the starfish.

Pudel, In the seventies it wasn't quite that bad, but believe me it was bad! I was seventeen and my days to go rescue Dobes was tuesday and thursday, I never left empty handed! Most of the shelter workers tried to hide the Dobes because they could sell them to "guard dog trainers". They came in beaten, ears cut off with scissors, torn up by fights, you name it.

My mentors, and all the ethical breeders in the club, never bred a litter for years, all the resources went towards rescue. The people that abuse dogs like this don't really care what breed it is as long as it makes them feel like a big man!!

Pudel, I think maybe you are in a bad location for pit bulls. Around Clovis, NM there are tons of pit bulls, and many of them are just good pets. Of course with the popularity, there are a lot in the shelter, and a lot of pit mixes as well. It's a shame but, I see the same kind of people trying to look macho with their pit bulls, just as they used to try to look macho with the Doberman and Rotties.

Now I'm starting to see ads for Bull Mastiffs and Cane Corsos, and the same crossed with pit bulls. I think these disgusting people are starting to see the writing on the wall, and are getting ready to move on to the NEXT overbred BAD breed!

dstull

Now I'm starting to see ads for Bull Mastiffs and Cane Corsos, and the same crossed with pit bulls. I think these disgusting people are starting to see the writing on the wall, and are getting ready to move on to the NEXT overbred BAD breed!

  Cane Corsos and AmBulls have been pretty popular here for years now and also a popular breed to mix with other "tuff" dogs - Danes, Boxers, Rotts, APBTs, AmBulls. Filas and mixes of them with "tuff" breeds are becoming easily available in my area now, which surprises (and worries) me.

pudel

And thank you 4HAND for at least listening to my point of view.

If you look at my first post, I listened to your point of view and even told you I understand where you are coming from.  I just don't agree with your position.  It's when the opinions become personal attacks that people start to lose their self control.  I try not to take anything too personal because I think everyone here has the welfare of dogs at heart we just disagree on some issues.  Doesn't make any of us better than anyone else or their opinions less valuable.

JackieG

If you look at my first post, I listened to your point of view and even told you I understand where you are coming from. 

Yes and thank you, and I didn't mean to imply that 4HAND was the only person who was listening. As I stated in my first post, I knew my opinion was not going to be popular and I've been prepared with my flame suit on right from the start!  Most everyone has been courteous and civil, but personal attacks are not going to get a response from me at all.