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Posted : 9/8/2008 1:39:02 PM
I was talking to a vet tech here at the lab who uses horse wormer/ivermectin on her dog. Does anyone else here do this? She recommend buying a liquid from Jeffers Equine, but I can't find it, only a paste. I wanted to come up with all the questions I had for her before I keep bugging her every day, so any information out there is helpful.
If you do use this, do you dose at the amount in heartgard? She said something like 100ul per 10lbs of dog, but she uses it to wormer her dog monthly (I guess her dog eats poop a lot so is routinely picking something up so she does it often) so she uses it at a pretty high dose. I might be able to get away with less. Where is a good place to get liquid instead of the paste?
And, in case you're wondering, I do have the ability to measure very small amounts and I would be careful about it, if I chose to do it. I still have 6 months of heartgard left, I'm just trying to see more about what options are out there and if other people do this?
I tried doing a search in the archives on here but I must be doing something wrong since I couldn't really find what I was looking for.
Posted : 9/8/2008 2:07:53 PM
I know a woman who breeds/shows Pointers that used Ivomec. I don't know if she still does or not, tho (it's been almost 20 years since we talked about it). However, I don know that Ivomec is dangerous for herding breeds and mixes of herding breeds, so I'd be very careful with it, especially with mixed breeds.
Posted : 9/8/2008 2:09:12 PM
I used to know quite a few dog trainers with large kennels who used the liquid form. They got it from Feed stores but this was many years ago. Recent reading on it for another reason I saw the dosage mentioned but I also read that dosing is critical if you want to protect for heartworms. The only other thing I heard but don't know if it is true, is that you should not give to any collie breeds. I thought about using it on my dogs but figured if I messed up the dose and one of them got heartworm it would be more expensive than Interceptor or Heartgard.
Well, that wasn't very helpful was it?
Posted : 9/8/2008 2:09:55 PM
Yes, one little drop can kill a dog with the MDR1 mutation. This mutation is possible in herding dogs (collies and australian shepherds especially) and mixes of herding dogs. So be careful with it.
Posted : 9/8/2008 2:25:33 PM
Sammy's been on heartgard for a couple years with no issues and I'm 99% sure he's not any sort of herding dog, but it's always safer to mention than not so I appreciate the heads up for myself and anyone else reading!
Would a place like Tractor Supply Company carry it?
I don't mind buying it online, but I was having a hard time finding something other than paste. I know the dose heartgard is (136mg/month for up to 50lbs) so at the least I could calculate how much I need.
Posted : 9/8/2008 2:30:00 PM
Yes, I used it for almost a year. We had a dog on our property with whip worms, so now we have to use Interceptor, but otherwise I'd still be using it. I get a tube of it from Tractor Supply Co, it was about $8, in a glass case so someone had to get it out for me. It expires after a year and you would not even use 1/4 of it by then, so it's about $8 a year. I use a drop a little smaller than a pea, once a month. You have to be careful with the dosage, you cannot just compare the weight of a dog to the weight of a horse because the horse paste has a higher concentration than the pills or ivermectin intended for dogs. I got the dosage from my breeder, whose husband is a vet. They have done it this way and never had a problem. I worried about Coke because he might be part Collie or Aussie, but he was on Heartgard in foster care and it's the same thing. However, when we got the foster dog with whip worms we switched to Interceptor (ivermectin does not work against whips).
Posted : 9/8/2008 2:46:33 PM
Ivermectin actually will kill any parasite that is a blood feeding parasite. I have the dose chart and if you want to EMAIL me I will send it to you -- it's a differernt dose for everything from heartworm 'preventive' to hooks, whips, and lung worms and the use of it for demodex (just as a comparison, the dose for demodex is almost 200 times (not percent ... TIMES) the dose used for heartworm 'prevention' which kills any microfilaria. That's for Ivomec (the liquid).
It all depends on where you are -- some feed stores carry it, some don't. You can get it online pretty easily. The liquid has a 4 year shelf life -- one time I figured out you could give heartworm preventive to fourteen 75 pound dogs for the whole 4 years and you'd still throw some away -- and that bottle is between $35 and $50 depending on the market.
No you CAN NOT give it to herding dogs -- "herding" is a huge spectrum - it's genetically a crapshoot -- ok for some, not for others and some breeds routinely use it but **no way** am I going to list the doses here.
It's just plain too easy for the wrong people to get hold of that dose chart, ignore the warnings, give it to their dog and kill them.
ANY dog, theoretically, can either do well with ivermectin or not. It's not just herders, so you do have to be careful
The current problem is that HeartGuard has tried SO hard to make it "ok" for ALL dogs (even herders) that they have made the dose SO small that it's ineffective and it's failing all over the place (particularly we see it here in the South).
It can be cheap -- yes. But you do have to be careful and you have to understand what you're doing. I'll be glad to send you the info if you EMAIL me -- don't pm me (it's not confidential enough for me). I'll email you back and copy you the amounts.
I almost killed my own sheltie mix with ivermectin many years ago -- I didn't realize then the "herding dog" warning. I learned MY lesson and I'm always very careful. But that's why I won't just cut in the dose chart here - I'm just too concerned it can be mis-read, mis-used, and mis-understood. It's not rocket science but you just need to be responsible with it.
Didn't mean to scare you -- but I know many think I'm over-cautious with this. You can also find the dose chart if you look in the "Pill Book Guide to Medications for Your Dog and Cat" (last pub 1998 - Dell Reference Books). You can still get that on Amazon and it's an amazing little book.
The good part about the Pill Book Guide is it actually tells you HOW the drug works. That explains, in essence, HOW it works in the body and why it's a problem for some dogs rather than others. If you've ever loved a herder, you know they "think different" than most other dogs -- and it's the very fact tha they're wired a bit different that makes it all make sense.
Posted : 9/8/2008 3:57:57 PM
I have gotten Ivermectin in the past from a local feed store/co-op. I have never used it as a HW preventative before, but I have recently been considering doing just that (I am using Heartgard right now). For a 50 ml bottle of 1% Ivermectin (liquid), it would cost me somewhere around $30. A paste would be cheaper, but I would be afraid to try dosing that myself.
Callie, do you mind if I e-mail you for that dosage info, too? I actually already know the dose for heartworm prevention, but I would be interested in knowing the rest.
Posted : 9/8/2008 7:00:16 PM
No problem at all --
either use the one connected thru my profile or
callie at critturs dot com (use the punctuation, no spaces)
the "dose" may differ depending on whom you are talking to!
Posted : 9/9/2008 4:40:01 AM
Callie, I just emailed you.
Posted : 9/9/2008 7:58:37 AM
there's a DNA test available to see if ivermectin will kill your dog or not. Affected breeds are collies, shelties, whippets, and a few others. It's called MDR1 mutation. It affects the metabolism of a lot of drugs not just ivermectin it's well worth knowing.
Posted : 9/9/2008 8:21:02 AM
Wow, I didn't know it could affect german shepards or whippets as well.
Thanks for the link.
Posted : 9/9/2008 8:23:48 AM
Liesje(ivermectin does not work against whips).
FYI, The list Callie emailed to me (from the book she referenced above) dose have a dose for using it against whips. It is much higher than the dose used for heartworm preventative, though.
Posted : 9/9/2008 2:35:26 PM
Posted : 9/9/2008 4:30:07 PM
Same place - feed stores sell various sized syringes. You'll need the teeny size, one ml.
I encourage anything thinking of doing this to please get the test. In fact, I encourage anyone with a dog with an unknown background to get the test - you really never know. Seriously you can't tell by looking what a dog is.
There's some common drugs that the doctor may administer in an emergency or in preparation for surgery, and they can cause the same problems for dogs with the gene.
It's a very easy test that you do in your home (cheek swab), and it only costs $65 - I may have that wrong but that's about right.
I do ivermectin for all but unknown dogs - I have a supply of Interceptor for them - and then I get the results back before I've had to do more than a couple doses on the expensive stuff. :) I also do Interceptor for all puppies under 1 year. Not because of the safety of ivermectin, but because the stuff I worm with is a bit touchy.
Ivermectin is really tough on the liver. What I prefer to do is worm (once I get a HW- test) at the Safeheart dose, and then treat for worms only three to four times a year. If you use Safeguard, which is available over the counter at any pet store and quite inexpensive and safe, you will get all possible worms and it treats giardia also if you be sure to do the full course (and repeat in a week if you suspect giardia). Safeguard is also available at the feed store in big tubes for treating livestock - but don't be tempted to try it. It's not a deal - it is indeed the same stuff but the pet version is much more concentrated - if you use the paste you have to feed the same dose as as 500 to 1000 pound animal!
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