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Posted : 10/15/2011 12:42:22 PM
I was wondering if anyone who uses natural / alternative therapies
For their dogs would have any Ideas.
Kobe my 12yr old has had 3 surgeries on his right leg and its never been a strong leg.
His first surgery he was about 2, TPLO about 3 and a curiate ligament surgery at 6.
He gets regular walks, Acupuncture and will be doing the water treadmill has the snow comes on. I do message his knee on occasion.
Its getting colder and he.s getting stiffer. We do give tramadol on difficult day. I was wondering if there was an oil or poultice or ideas I could use on him to help during the colder weather so we do not have to depend so much on the meds.I would prefer to use less if at all possible.
Real hot or cold weather is harder on them.
My husband will be taking them in to the holistic vet this time do to the new job. I already have a small list of questions I am sending him with and and ideas or suggestion would help . I can add them to the list so they can confer.
I would appreciate any insights.
Posted : 10/15/2011 4:09:23 PM
Yep -- White Flower Oil or maybe WoodLock (is it strongly just arthritis or are we talking weak/sore muscles/soft tissue?) If you'll email me again I'll send you my article on pain management.
Is the acupuncture laser or actual needle acupuncture? Is it a vet who does TCVM?? There are Chinese herbs that absolutely are awesome to help arthritis.
What modalities does the new holistic vet do? Any homeopthy? Traumeel can be a huge huge help. Both the tablets and the liquid. These are not "drugs" -- they are homeopathics therefore you do them *differently* -- you don't give in or near food b/c it has to be absorbed in the mouth. The same company has a formula "Zeel" that is specifically for arthritis. But they also have an injectible form that is absolutely incredible (it can be more effective than a shot of steroid with ZERO side effects).
If you want we can talk on the phone -- too many things for me to boil down into one post.
Er ... um ... you DID ask for someone holistically minded?? *looking around sheepishly* -- I suppose I qualify? (DUCKING cos somebuddy is gonna lob milk thistle or something at me!)
Posted : 10/15/2011 5:59:31 PM
With Kobe it is arthritis and weak muscle( lack of muscle) and tight spots/ bunched over worked muscles in the lower back above his legs because he is using those muscle to compensate for the weak leg.
Kobe has had leg problems since 6mnth so has never put his full weight on the right leg.
We try to keep his weight down and build muscle in the leg but it hard. He is starting to stiffen up. Especially in the mornings. sometimes in the evening.
With Magnus I think it the on set of arthritis and weak muscle, but other disc injuries are always a concern.His weight is much harder to keep off and he can bulk up pretty fast so we are always dealing with that.
Our H vet noticed he has lost some muscle in one leg and we are currently trying to build it up.You can tell when he is feeling sore. Some days are fine some are not.
On both dogs the acupuncture is with needles mostly. At one time or another she has used ultrasound ,gentle electrical stimulation, Plus some times the needles are coated in something that smells a bit like pot. Sorry I am so blanking on what is was called today.
She is a DMV
She runs /owns a Pain Management and Rehabilitation center offering
Acupuncture – Hydrotherapy – Physical therapy.
She does have a lady there that offers chiropractic services.
She will not let you use her as both a regular DMV and Alturnitive vet . She does not want to step on the local vets toes.
She want them to continue to recomend her for Animals needing additional help and therepy.I would love to have her as our sole vet.
We have been seeing her for years.
She does also do homeopathy, I forget her credentials and I have not used her for this much . She has given me some different things a time of two though the years. Recommending them for this and that and all have worked. I am ignorant and just learning this side of things. But its been awhile.She also help us a lot with Rogue He had leg and hip troubles .She gave me a herbal blend after he was diagnostic with cancer.
I thought I would get some info/ Ideas here and with your suggestions,we ( me ,hubby and the vet) could come up with a plan for the winter and has my boys get older.
I really do like the idea of giving more pain pills and drugs.
Thank you so much for the info and suggestions.I will look up the Traumeel and Zeel .
Posted : 10/15/2011 11:23:33 PM
PawMaid Plus some times the needles are coated in something that smells a bit like pot. Sorry I am so blanking on what is was called today
*rotf lm behind off* LOL Moxibustion or the herb used in it. With Moxi (and I've never seen it done on dogs -- that sounds really helpful!) typically there is a roll of the herb (it looks like part of a cigarette filter except all brown) and they light it and the smoke from it is drawn down into the skin. It **DOES** smell exactly like pot (but it's not).
She sounds very good -- my TCVM vet also doesn't want you to use her as a 'regular' vet -- she literally calls it "complimentary therapy".
Massage likely will be key -- you may want to go to http://www.petmassage.com -- I know they have DVDs you can get to teach yourself what you need to do. You can also get most any massage book by Dr. Fox (look on Amazon -- he's got several and they're really good -- not accupressure points or anything but helpful to learn massage).
The oils work incredibly well on the dogs. They don't gunk up the fur and generally don't rub off badly on stuff. If you want you can dilute them a bit with olive oil but generally not necessary. You can even dilute with plain old rubbing alcohol. In fact -- have you ever seen green rubbing alcohol? (pretty common at any pharmacy). That's simply rubbing alcohol with a bit of wintergreen essential oil in it.
Most health stores carry both peppermint and wintergreen essential oils -- not expensive. If you get some of the green rubbing alcohol, add either some peppermint or wintergreen oil to it and ramp it up a bit (you could do that with the Yee Tin oil even -- adding that little bottle to a bottle of green alcohol would be good and you could be really liberal with it).
White Flower Oil is mostly wintergreen, peppermint and eucalyptus oils (and a couple of others I suspect). It is extremely good for "bone pain" (like arthritic joints where the actual joint itself is inflamed). Use is a couple of times a day and it will actually help reduce the inflammation in the bone itself.
WoodLock is Korean -- it's a whole different blend of oils (it's more woodsy/exotic smelling -- almost smells like a perfume rather than mint). It's also really good for straight arthritis -- but it is SUPERB on muscle-related-to-arthritis type pain. Meaning muscles that get overused because you're compensating for arthritic or injured joints. By what you're saying the WoodLock would likely be my first choice as a massage oil.
I get all my massage oil stuff at http://www.morningstarhealth.com -- on the left click on "Massage Supplies" -- it's probably under Oils or Liniments. He sells a huge variety of stuff and honestly there's nothing I've gotten from there that hasn't been great. I've had arthritis since I was a kid (which was a LONG time ago) but I can't take most NSAIDs. I can't take *any* of the high powered ones so I rely on the oils (and I use some of the patches/plasters as well but those don't work on dog fur LOL).
It was actually one of my dogs who *taught* me the difference in what White Flower was good for as opposed to WoodLock. Foxy was pretty elderly for a corgi/sheltie mix (about 17 when this occurred) *and* not only did he have spondylosis (an actual lesion on the spine that morphed into a spiny knobby hurt) but he ALSO had sciatica in both rear legs. He had one tendon that went from his groin down to his knee and when that got riled up it was tight as piano wire.
I used to use the White Flower Oil on the spondylosis a lot ... but sometimes I'd reach for the WoodLock if it was closer. I used both on me and just didn't pay much attention. I'd feel under him and massage the underside of his legs if the that tendon was strung tight, and usually I'd feel along his back for hot spots to massage some oil in.
Well -- excuse ME ... one night he came up to me (and this WAS Foxy through and through -- he was convinced if he **thought** it hard enough he could get thru to my poor merely human brain!!) -- but he'd sorta stand there stamping back and forth on his front feet (typical Foxy "Excuse me -- PAY ATTENTION please ... but I mean that **respectfully**"). I could see him looking at my desk and I had oils sitting here.
I put my hand on his low back and noticed the spondylosis spot was **very** warm. I said "You hurting? You want me to rub some oil on??"
HUGE SNIFFY-HUFF ("Duh, Mom of course")
So I reached to pick up the Woodlock and he reached that pointy sheltie nose up and BATTED my hand away then pointed the Foxy nose at the White Flower -- looked at me and **LOOKED** back at the white flower oil.
so, of course, me being the obedient Mom I dribbled the White Flower on that spot, He didn't want it rubbed much but before I could do the sciatic spot he just went and laid down.
Hmmmmmmmmmmm -- ok, how anthropomorphic do I want to be here??
So I tested him for many nights after that. And I discovered that when the spondylosis was bothering him he wanted White Flower (yeah, I actually began to show him both bottles and let him nose the one he wanted)
BUT surprise surprise. When he actually wanted the sciatica areas massaged he would choose the WoodLock.
Well I'm not stupid -- I began to pay more attention when I used it on myself. And dang - the dog was right. When I had neural pain (like sciatica or leg muscle cramps -- or muscles radiating away from an arthritic joint) -- the WoodLock DID work better by a bit. But on joint pain (like arthritis in my hands or knees) the White Flower was a shade more effective.
They're BOTH really good -- and both will work in all of the above.
The WoodLock comes in a bigger bottle (thank Heavens). I wreck havoc so much on my neck (I'm a legal secretary so I'm sitting at a computer all the time) that the WoodLock works incredibly well to loosen up the muscles radiating down from my neck/shoulders. But I carry White Flower in my purse (particularly to help ward off a migraine or for my hands if they get sore while I"m typing at work.)
I use both all the time -- Glenda likes WoodLock when her shoulder gets knotted up and I know Amanda uses White Flower a lot on Bevo (he has Wobblers -he's a dobe).
There are herbs -- but DO be careful. White Willow Bark is a good NSAID herb -- BUT just like any nsaid it can be hard on the stomach. so don't assume that just because it's an herb it's without any side effects. There are others --bosweilla and some others.
You might discuss with this vet and see if she does aquapuncture -- Traumeel comes in an injectible and it can be incredibly helpful.
Posted : 10/16/2011 10:18:25 AM
I can not Thank you enough for all the infomation, I am truely greatful,
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