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Posted : 3/27/2009 10:40:36 PM
Posted : 3/27/2009 11:40:51 PM
Here are some articles on Canine Vestibular Disease (Old Dog Disease):
Metacam is an anti-inflammatory. I am not familiar with Tourbogic.
What tests did your vet do?
Note: Canine Vestibular Disease and mild strokes both often resolve with time. My little terrier had the problem and it gradually went away. Whatever the cause her body repaired itself.
Posted : 3/27/2009 11:50:12 PM
Posted : 3/28/2009 12:11:21 AM
Two supplements for treating Canine Vestibular Disease:
(1) Cholodin. Many holistic vets in the US carry it as does http://www.entirelypets.com"Arthritis, joint pain, lameness, and other age-related problems may be linked to the reductions in the body's natural hyaluronan levels. Cholodin and Cholodin-Fel are now available as dietary supplements containing bioavailable hyaluronan. CHOLODIN is the original choline-loading dietary supplement formulated especially for geriatric dogs and cats." Problems that can be treated with Cholodin include doggie senility and vestibular syndrome.
(2) Hyaluronic acid
Posted : 3/28/2009 12:26:12 AM
I had a sheltie who had more than one bout with "old dog" vestibular disease. It's scarey for them -- but to be honest, this almost sounds more like seizure activity.
Has this dog recently had vaccines or any medications or had any recent stresses (like changes in your household, etc.).
Honestly, I would tell you that *'I* have had marvelous results having a TCVM vet check the dog out. I'm not advocating "leaving" your vet ... not at all. But a TCVM vet (traditional Chinese veterinary medicine) with acupuncture can help SO much to reduce the inflammation more locally than Metacam can do -- and there are no 'bad' side effects. If you go to http://www.tcvm.com - there is a "locator" on the left side -- zip code and/or state if you are in the US, and if you are elsewhere, there is a sentence link under the locator that will show you a list of vets in Canada (there are many) and other countries.
Vestibular disease is basically an inner ear imbalance/infection -- it takes a WHILE to see ANY improvement at all, and they get so stressed and scared that can hold back the healing. However -- some of what you are saying truly sounds like it could be seizure oriented and frankly, there is NOTHING better than acupuncture and the Chinese herbs for that.
My peke, Kee Shu, is a seizure dog and we control ALL of it (with an incredibly high quality of life for her) with herbs and acupuncture. She's very senior (maybe 16-18+ years old) and yet her health is honestly better than when she came to us 3 years ago. Yes, she's more "senor" but she's also "on this planet" (which she wasn't when she came to us).
And yes, there could be a combination of seizures and vestibular -- because the stress of vestibular disease could surely trigger some petit mal type seizures. (i.e., not all seizures are completely incapacitating)
Posted : 3/28/2009 12:48:43 AM
lamorratoday she turned upside down on the bed and for about 20 seconds her body tightened up. When her body relaxed she was shaking for about 20 minutes then went to sleep.There was no rapid eye movement, no loss of bowel or urination during this.
I agree with Callie that this part of your description sounds like a seizure. Have you talked with your vet about this development? He/she may feel that it justifies more tests or a change in medication. Meds do have possible side effects.
Posted : 3/28/2009 6:23:59 PM
Posted : 3/28/2009 6:37:47 PM
I have not brought these episodes to the vets attention as they just started. She just had another one. This time she let out a yelp then twisted her head to the left, she also urinated. Nothing else twisted and she seemed as though she was aware. It lasted about 15 seconds. The only change in the house is my mom had a mild heart attack in July and is recovering from it rather well.
Her poodle Bonnie is very attached to her her. She also jumps around alot, very active and we wonder is she hurt herself jumping on or off the bed. She has a small couch she jumps on 1st then my moms bed. Also I wanted to mention that when I set her down she immedietly wants to shake her head. The vet checked her ears and they were clean. I did recently change the dog food from Canidae to Halo. I did it slowly and all the other dogs are well. She also does seems to not want to bend her left front leg until we massage it and comfort her. She slept well through the night, ate(I am feeding her A/D) well, drank well then out of nowhere yelped and twisted her head only. Could it be a pulled muscle hence the Metacam? I am lost with this and the vet I am not sure will run any other tests. If it is vestibular disease is there anything I can do to help her? She is
Posted : 3/28/2009 7:18:11 PM
She is barely walking, she falls, walks to the right but wants to go out to do her business. I will look into acupunture and possibly take her to UC Davis Medical Center which is about 6 hrs from here. Monday I will take her to the vet and explain these new episodes. Most certainly they do not resemble anything she was doing from the onset. The inital incident happened 12 days ago. Although at least now she is eating and drinking. What I guess I want to do is not over or under treat her untill I can get her to the vet monday. Anything that will calm her and help her to not have another seizure. Thank you all so much, I am so glad I found this feed.
Posted : 3/29/2009 1:03:05 AM
You may want to try something like valerian root -- it's a relaxant (it's the herb that they "invented" valium to mimic). The tincture works pretty fast if you can get to a good health store.
If you can get hold of an acupuncturist from that list you may not have to go to Davis. Call several and see. I know some of the vets on that list, so if you want to email me with your zip code I'll see if I can help you.
Posted : 4/5/2009 12:37:52 AM
Posted : 4/5/2009 6:59:26 AM
I'm glad to hear she is improving and I hope that continues.
Posted : 4/5/2009 8:24:17 AM
lamorra It's been 18 days since Bonnie had her episode. I finally got her to her regular vet and she felt that Bonnie had injured her neck as at that point Bonnie would not even stand up and her paws were buckling inward. The vet put her on prednisone and Baytril. We started seeing an improvement within 24 hrs. Bonnie is now walking, although wobbley, on her own. She is still pulling to the right and there seems to be some blindness in her left eye. But we are so grateful for every day that we see improvement. The vet will start weaning Bonnie off the prednisone possibly by monday. No one can really know if it was a stroke, trama, or vestebular, the vet said short of comprehensive tests we will not know. Bonnie did not do well with vet visits. We also did not conclude if she actually was having seizures. Whatever they were, they quit. She does not seem like she is in any pain and is drinking and eating with help but never lost her appitite. Calli had excellent advice and all who posted helped me as well. I will keep posting with updates. I hope they help other people too. Thank you very much.
It's been 18 days since Bonnie had her episode. I finally got her to her regular vet and she felt that Bonnie had injured her neck as at that point Bonnie would not even stand up and her paws were buckling inward. The vet put her on prednisone and Baytril. We started seeing an improvement within 24 hrs. Bonnie is now walking, although wobbley, on her own. She is still pulling to the right and there seems to be some blindness in her left eye. But we are so grateful for every day that we see improvement. The vet will start weaning Bonnie off the prednisone possibly by monday. No one can really know if it was a stroke, trama, or vestebular, the vet said short of comprehensive tests we will not know. Bonnie did not do well with vet visits. We also did not conclude if she actually was having seizures. Whatever they were, they quit. She does not seem like she is in any pain and is drinking and eating with help but never lost her appitite. Calli had excellent advice and all who posted helped me as well. I will keep posting with updates. I hope they help other people too. Thank you very much.
I'm betting she may have kidney disease or inner ear infection, both of which have been associated with seizure or vestibular disease activity. So, my guess is that the Baytril, which is a broad spectrum antibiotic that attacks gram negative and some gram positive bacteria is at work doing its job, which is good news for your dog. It's also known as an antibiotic that works fast in the urinary tract, so do go back and have the vet test for kidney function, as dogs that have kidney disease tend to get UTI's - if she has it, you may be able to prolong her life by taking steps to reduce phosphorus in her diet, and with medications or fluids. Dogs with vestibular disease can buckle and won't stand also, without any injury to the neck. The head tilt and circling say vestibular to me, and the eye movement does not have to be significant in such dogs. However, if you do see eye movement, check to see if it's up and down, or from side to side. The up and down suggests central nervous system involvement, and the side to side suggests that it might be infection or something else.
Posted : 4/5/2009 10:25:41 AM
Her vet seems to be *really* good -- I spoke with her last night and Bonnie is much improved. She's just a tiny little dog and really seems to get majorly stressed with the more frequent vet visits, so altho Lamorra asked the vet to do a deep ear culture, the vet was reluctant to go 'deep' where it might cause pain **however** the vet discussed with her that was exactly why the Baytril ... the potential for an infection having been primary (ear, kidney, etc.) could have been the underlying problem and since she's simply recovering SO well (she's walking much better, and seems to be returning to normal far faster than the vet anticipated) the vet wants to give it a bit more time. Most the vet doesn't want to introduce too wide a variety of "things" as long as healing is taking place so she can narrow down cause vs. effect. (The vet actually put the dog on SamE to mitigate any liver damage/toxicity.)
This vet seems to be really cofortable with herbs and supplements as well so was happy with a lot of our suggestions.
The more I spoke with this lady on the phone the more it reminded me of how Kee Shu injured HER neck about 18 months ago -- VERY similar -- head tilted and the muscles on one side being more painful than the other (with the less painful side shortening to 'stretch' the sore muscles which somehow helps). Lamorra is also doing some massage to help the neck 'heal' while the rest of the body heals.
She had her back to the vet Saturday and the vet is thrilled with the progress -- but this vet is pretty saavy -- she's right on the same page Anne and I are with the ear/kidney infections as potential problems. *I* am thrilled the dog is responding so well.
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